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"Male hermies arent bad"

CreeperStipule

Active member
I don't recall the specific paper but think the work was on Purple Kush when they looked at that, so -

"The identification of the two QTLs for sex determination across locations is a significant step toward understanding the sex determination system (monecious and diecious) of cannabis. Two auxin response factor genes (arf2 and arf5), bZIP transcription factor 16-like and gene gibberellic acid insensitive (gai) that codes for the DELLA RGL1-like protein were identified in QTLSex_det1 for sex determination. These genes are involved in the balance of the phytohormones auxins and gibberellic acid, which are known to play an active role in the sex expression (male or female) in many crops"

"It is likely that QTLSex_det1 contributes to regulate sex determination by controlling the expression of male and female inflorescences in a female genetic background, for example through downregulation of gai gene and/or downregulation of auxin response factor genes. Both effects might promote the development of male flower organs in female plants, leading to a monecious hemp. This is essentially because the positive effect alleles of QTLSex_det1 are associated to promote monoecy in hemp plants, while the negative effect alleles to promote dioecy (phenotypic values close to 3 indicate monoecy and values close to 1 dioecy, according to the phenotypic scale used in this study). The common genetic basis of monoecy and dioecy sex determination of hemp are in accordance to the common markers between monecious and diecious populations reported by Faux et al. (2016). The argumentation of downregulation of auxin response factor genes is also in agreement with Moliterni et al. (2004). They suggested that the repression of female characteristics implies the down-regulation of the genes involved in pathways more strictly regulated to the differentiation of the female sex."

"Previous studies reported that monecious hemp plants carry the homogametic sex chromosomes XX (Faux et al., 2014) and QTLs associated to sex expression (male vs. female diecious plants and ratio male/female inflorescences in monecious plants) were located on the sex chromosomes, based on genetic maps (Faux et al., 2016). However, the lack of a complete genome sequence do not allow to map the QTLSex_det1 in any specific chromosome. Thus, QTLSex_det1 can be either located on the X chromosome, as some sex QTLs from Faux et al., 2016, or in any of the autosomes. Finally, molecular markers composing this QTL can be used as markers to directly select for monecious plants, differently than the male specific SCAR marker already available. This is because the male specific marker only allows to discriminate between male and female plants (Moliterni et al., 2004)."

A female thing yes?
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Genetic Architecture of Flowering Time and Sex Determination in Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.): A Genome-Wide Association Study.
Petit, J., Salentijn, E. M. J., Paulo, M.-J., Denneboom, C., & Trindade, L. M.
Frontiers in Plant Science, 11.(2020).
doi:10.3389/fpls.2020.569958

Looks like this is the one you're referring to creeper 😁
Identification of QTLs for sex expression in dioecious and monoecious hemp (Cannabis sativa L.)
A.-M. Faux . X. Draye . M.-C. Flamand, A. Occre . P. Bertin
Euphytica
DOI: 10.1007/s10681-016-1641-2

Page 1 post 3.
Sam's bibliography.
 

Cerathule

Well-known member
Don't know, remember the purple Kush and think it progresses as techs do... remember a paper where Mckernan looked at about 40 sequences on a pathogen paper....
This one is about Purple Kush
 

CreeperStipule

Active member

Production of Feminized Seeds of High CBD Cannabis sativa L. by Manipulation of Sex Expression and Its Application to Breeding.​

Sex of C. sativa L. (2n = 20) is genetically determined by one pair of sex chromosomes X and Y, where male gender of dioecious plants is determined by heterogametic XY chromosomes, while dioecious female and monoecious or hermaphrodite plants exhibit homogametic chromosomes XX

The findings confirmed previous reports that several factors, like sex-determining genes, sex chromosomes, epigenetic control by DNA methylation, and microRNAs, and physiological regulation with phytohormones influence sex expression of predetermined cannabis plants


im gonna start fkn swinging at you people soon...i mean really fkn swinging too.
no wait...im gonna leave you all in your own mental hell and go listen to music..
4 peeps ignored now...
I don't know what you're trying to prove? this proves sex expression can be manipulated in females.. hyb and others told us this years ago, it does include some of the faux stuff and makes ref to the other paper.
 
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Redrum92

Well-known member
3/4 of this is over my head, which is great, pretty much what I was hoping for when I started the thread.

Now I have a lot to read and learn, and a lot of different loose ends to follow up on. Thanks to everyone who has contributed time and effort
 
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Deleted user 97766655

Active member

Production of Feminized Seeds of High CBD Cannabis sativa L. by Manipulation of Sex Expression and Its Application to Breeding.​

Sex of C. sativa L. (2n = 20) is genetically determined by one pair of sex chromosomes X and Y, where male gender of dioecious plants is determined by heterogametic XY chromosomes, while dioecious female and monoecious or hermaphrodite plants exhibit homogametic chromosomes XX

The findings confirmed previous reports that several factors, like sex-determining genes, sex chromosomes, epigenetic control by DNA methylation, and microRNAs, and physiological regulation with phytohormones influence sex expression of predetermined cannabis plants


im gonna start fkn swinging at you people soon...i mean really fkn swinging too.
no wait...im gonna leave you all in your own mental hell and go listen to music..
4
Kinda like getting a double yoker, and thinking well if I could only push that other yoke into and make one big one! Yumm!
 

djonkoman

Active member
Veteran
ok, a lot has been said since I last posted, too much to go into everything but in general, I'm reading some misunderstandings of the language/specifics from some of the papers posted. when reading a paper you have to take into account what the research question of the specific paper was, and what strategy they used to find an answer.
Oh shit. Hemizygous? FFS. Just when I think I understand this stuff lol.
I will, I promise I will read the paper, but just to clarify, the A and the a, used in X to auto, is that like tying a ribbon around one or is there actually a differentiation between them?
It makes me wonder if a female genome would be larger than a males in hemizygous lines.
just to clear this up:
this paper is not talking about there being any 'hemizygous lines'

the meaning of hemizygous is simply a case where one chromosome has a gene, while it's completely absent on the other.
so, it is similar to heterozygous, except that in the case of heterozygous we're usually talking about cases where there the 2 chromosomes of the pair have different alleles of the same gene. maybe one allele is a mutated non-functional form of the gene, but the sequence of the gene is still there.
in case of hemizygous, the gene/sequence is completely lacking on one side.

so what that paper that we were talking about was about in short:
the cannabis genome is mapped, but we want to know which of the chromosome pairs is the sex chromosome pair.
to do that they:
-took samples from male and female flowers, and extracted the RNA (this you can then convert to dna and then you can sequence it): this gives you a icture of all actively transcribed/expressed genes at that tissue at the timepoint you took the sample.
so in this case, you can look at all genes that are differentially expressed genes: the ones that are the same expression level between both samples are not interesting for the goal, but everything that is higher/lower between the samples is likely linked to sex expression in some way. (but that could be in any step in the process of sex expression: it could be a crucial trigger gene, or just something far downstream from the actual trigger)

all these genes they got out of this analysis they then categorised into different groups, based on how they inherited in the offspring of a cross between a female and male.

some are autosomal
some are located on both the x and y chromosome (they can be different on both, just that the gene is present on both)
they can be hemizygous: the gene is present on the x, but completely absent on the y.

based on this information you can then look up all those genes that are hypothesised to be located on sex chromosomes based on this inheritance pattern, and see where they map to in the existing mapped genome of cannabis. you'll then find they mostly map to 1 specific chromosome pair (mostly, because there are always some errors/randomness in any lab experiment), and bingo, you now know which chromosome pair is the sex chromosome pair.

for example, take this sentence from the quote of the paper by creeperstipule:
for example through downregulation of gai gene and/or downregulation of auxin response factor genes.

gai gene, going by the name and context, probably is related to GA, gibberilic acid (you could look up if that's indeed the meaning of the name here, but my guess from seeing plenty of gene names and the context this is in, I think it's probablty short for something like 'gibberilic acid induced gene').
auxin response factor ofcourse is associated with auxin signalling.

i.e., in this case the herming (specifically tested in monocious hemp in this paper) could be caused by mutations/differences in genes downstream from the hormonal signalling. the hormones are still the same, but the plant perceives/interprets the hormone signals differently.

to make a human anaogy, this would be sort of similar to Androgen insensitivity syndrome : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
here the human has XY chromsomes, but is completely insensitive to testosterone, and so phenotypically develops as a full female.

Production of Feminized Seeds of High CBD Cannabis sativa L. by Manipulation of Sex Expression and Its Application to Breeding.​

Sex of C. sativa L. (2n = 20) is genetically determined by one pair of sex chromosomes X and Y, where male gender of dioecious plants is determined by heterogametic XY chromosomes, while dioecious female and monoecious or hermaphrodite plants exhibit homogametic chromosomes XX

The findings confirmed previous reports that several factors, like sex-determining genes, sex chromosomes, epigenetic control by DNA methylation, and microRNAs, and physiological regulation with phytohormones influence sex expression of predetermined cannabis plants


im gonna start fkn swinging at you people soon...i mean really fkn swinging too.
no wait...im gonna leave you all in your own mental hell and go listen to music..
4 peeps ignored now...

this source just says that all herms are genetically female. it very clearly states males are XY:
'where male gender of dioecious plants is determined by heterogametic XY chromosomes,'
heterogametic: producing 2 different (hetero) gametes. i.e., a pair of sex chromosomes with 2 clearly different chromsomes which we call X and Y.
'while dioecious female and monoecious or hermaphrodite plants exhibit homogametic chromosomes XX'
while both female and herm plants have homogametic, i.e. producing 2 of the same/similar(homo) gametes.

And they say afterwards that specific factors influence the sex expression.

I think namedropping DNA methylation based on this is a bit out of context, dna methylation is just a process that silences dna (i.e, stops its expression). it's a very common mechanism, nothing weird about it being involved in sex expression, the question is what triggers the different dna methylation.

I was under the impression that the Cannabis genome was completely sequenced already...?
Don't know, remember the purple Kush and think it progresses as techs do... remember a paper where Mckernan looked at about 40 sequences on a pathogen paper....

it depends on what you consider 'completely'
the way sequencing works is that you get a whole bunch of shorter sequences, so-called 'reads', that you need to puzzle together (which you can do based on overlapping sequences) into bigger pieces (full chromosomes).
sometimes the dna tends to break a lot at one specific point, so then most pieces have theor end there and you don't get many, or any, pieces bridging that gap, so you can't reliably connect the pieces on both sides of the gap.

another big problem with plants especially is repetitive sequence.
like if you've got many regions where it's just 'CTCTCTCTCTCTCTCT' for many base pairs, good luck accurately puzzling that together. or a longer unique sequence, but repated a few times, like 'CATGGCTCCACCATGGCTCCACCATGGCTCCACCATGGCTCCACCATGGCTCCAC'
high error rate in getting the exact number of repeats right. (here, I copy-pasted the same sequence 4 times in a row).
so, even a 'full' sequence can have different levels of quality, like more reliable guess of the amount of repeats, or less unmapped pieces.

definitely some technological progress involved in that, for example one way to get better results is to use 'long reads', i.e. the pieces you need to puzzle together will be longer, making it easier to get it right.
but there are more ways to get to better results, this is just 1 example.

the purple kush genome was the first mapped cannabis genome I think, currently the one accepted as 'the' standard genome is the mapped genome of the cbd line CBDRx.

edit:
for illustration on that stuff with the reads puzzled together, I quickly opened up a genome browser and focussed on some ramdom part of a random sequence (not in any way related to cannabis), so you can get a better idea of how it looks/works:
genviewbla.jpg
(in this case, all the colored bases among the grey stuff are differences relative to the reference genome, at the bottom is the full sequence based on the consensus of all the reads)
 
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igrowone

Well-known member
Veteran
Pictured is a plant at about 10 weeks of flowering that appeared to be male until I removed majority of its male parts in attempt to reveg. Week after that pistils started to pop out.
View attachment 18820040 View attachment 18820043
I too have had this experience, a male jock horror that I cut off the male tops
it did what yours shows and actually provided some quite good smoke
 
I too have had this experience, a male jock horror that I cut off the male tops
it did what yours shows and actually provided some quite good smoke
3rd attempt growing and man these plants blow my mind. This one is gg4 x abc and I had pollinated it just this morning. Main goal was to find abc looking plants to bonsai 😆. Looking forward to upcoming F2s and a potentially S1 male now 🤠
 

romanoweed

Well-known member
so under that model, a 'male hermi', i.e. a plant that develops as male at first but later shows female flowers, would actually just be a female hermi that leans heavily to the male side.
i.e., in this case that would be the worst possible herms to breed with, way worse then a herm that just throws a few nanners late in flower.

i just have discovered Hermies the first time , i have around 50 percent firm Females, and the other 50 percent are whaterver we now call it: 1) Males with female flowers , or 2) Females that herm..

Since it was my first time seeing this in real life, i was just scraching my Head, why would people dislike this?

Because i have 50 percent Females that are firm.. So why would this be a problem?
These Pollensacks in my Line show in high amounts, exactly when Floweringtime is, so they are supereasy to detect..
Can somebody enlighten me, cause its a Turkish Landrace backcross project, i absolutely love the Line.. Its unbelevable unique -
 

romanoweed

Well-known member
For my uneducated Brain, it would be some of THE BEST.

Cause once the Pollensacks show on some of my Plants, i can instead of Culling, place those Plants 100 Meters away, and get Seed every time i actually grow for Consumtion. Or i just go the normal way, and cull em , and happily consume my firm Females.
 
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romanoweed

Well-known member
in my case the "lets call em Weirdos" are like 50 percent female Pistils, and 50 percent Pollensacks at a Plant.. thats consistent in all 3 Weirdos..
but the firm Females are all Firm.. That means that the Hermies i have (in your theory they are Hermies) show very apprupt in one Pheno, and very apprupt not in the other .. So thats why im slightly sceptical about your Theory. I mean i didnt find a Male-ish thingy with a MAle dominance neither.. in my 6 Plants...
 
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igrowone

Well-known member
Veteran
i just have discovered Hermies the first time , i have around 50 percent firm Females, and the other 50 percent are whaterver we now call it: 1) Males with female flowers , or 2) Females that herm..

Since it was my first time seeing this in real life, i was just scraching my Head, why would people dislike this?

Because i have 50 percent Females that are firm.. So why would this be a problem?
These Pollensacks in my Line show in high amounts, exactly when Floweringtime is, so they are supereasy to detect..
Can somebody enlighten me, cause its a Turkish Landrace backcross project, i absolutely love the Line.. Its unbelevable unique -
I have had similar thoughts and experiences
when you have well behaved hermies lke the ones your seeing, that's one thing
a stealth hermie that trashes your whole grow is another
 
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