Low Mg, High P for High THC Content?

[Ophis]

A common misunderstanding accompanying P is the Root:Shoot Ratio......
This Ratio expresses the dry biomass of roots opposed to
dry biomass of above ground level plant(shoot).
Not the total length of roots or the number of root "nodes" opposed to the internodal length(distance..) of new shoot..

Yes,actually supplying with an abudance of P (the same goes for N,BTW.) this ratio lowers,as the P content in medium rises...

In simple words when the soil is fertile (It contains an abudance of PRIMARY MACRONUTRIENTS... the known "troika"... N-P-K...With ,of course,adequate oxygen and water/humidity.Does it mean something else ,really?Uh?),the plants do NOT need an extended and massive root system to support an analogous extended and massive above-ground plant growth....
Hydroponics and aeroponics,provide a vast array of good examples,which all prove that....

Since it is relatively easy for the plant to obtain nutrients from the medium(thats the biochemical purpose of a root system,along with the biomechanical purpose of "anchoring" the plant to the medium )the plant,acquires the valuable electrons,derived from photosynthesis,to more important,metabolic activities(growing,flowering,fruiting,ect.) than new root producing...
It doesn't need the new roots..
It gets what it wants from a "smaller root "system..
(Don't be tricked ,though.It has plenty of....possible disadvantages also...If something goes wrong "underground"...You will get to know about it very fast...Too Fast...)

Theories about long internodal length and plenty of P,are just..speculations...
Other things affect internodal length...

A plant feeling hot?
It will try to compensate to water evaporation and loss,fungus attacks and many other side effects of high temps ,by adopting a more "airy"and taller stature...As simple as that..Nature & Survival.....

As for more blue light which has a same effect...
More blue means more altitude to the plant....Nature & Survival..
It is not "wise" to be a a tall thin tree,in a place full of wind most of times,drought and high intensity light..

Lack of light?Plant increases, its internodal length,to penetrate the canopy of other plants,trying to find a way to receive more light..

It's a jungle,out there for the plants...
Nature & Survival...
Many,other things may have the same effect...
But High P availability is not among them...

P is a PRIMARY macronutrient.
It must be there,no matter what...

From 50ppm up to 200ppm..

And it is not a personal preferance the exact amount,but rather a
complex consideration of medium type,other nutrients,microbial/fungus activity,strain,phase of growth and other,enough....

No matter if it helps cannabinoid biosynthesis or not..

It is not an element with extended limits,anyway...
You cannot "push the limits",with P...IMO
You cannot "play" with P...IMO
Go for less than 50ppm or more than 200-300ppm(mean available concentration..),sit back and you will soon find out, what it will happen..

 

[grapeman]

A common misunderstanding accompanying P is the Root:Shoot Ratio......
This Ratio expresses the dry biomass of roots opposed to
dry biomass of above ground level plant(shoot).

the plants do NOT need an extended and massive root system to support an analogous extended and massive above-ground plant growth....
Hydroponics and aeroponics,provide a vast array of good examples,which all prove that....

I've never really seen dry biomass correlated to the use of P....... only N. Interesting anyway.

And while I agree in general with your post, I disagree with your comment that

the plants do NOT need an extended and massive root system to support an analogous extended and massive above-ground plant growth....

While a plant may survive without an extensive root system, it will not ever reach it's full potential. Expecting to get optimal top growth without the corresponding optimal root growth just won't happen. The most successful hydro or aero grows I've seen always had massive healthy roots..

 

[Ophis]

While a plant may survive without an extensive root system, it will not ever reach it's full potential. Expecting to get optimal top growth without the corresponding optimal root growth just won't happen. The most successful hydro or aero grows I've seen always had massive healthy roots..

The same size plants(having the same biomass to be more precise..),out in nature, 99% of the possibilities,would have had double or even triple the total root mass and volume....(in search for food and water...)
Trust me..
Verified.
One time too many..

P.S.
And of course it is lame,for someone to believe that from a tiny fiber for a root ,it will grow a monster...No,I didn't meant that...(My mother language is not English,so you 'll have to forgive me and at the same time,help me to be more ..exact while expressing my thoughts...)



http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2479&Type=2
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2995441

 

[dizzlekush]

P is a PRIMARY macronutrient.
It must be there,no matter what...

From 50ppm up to 200ppm..

And it is not a personal preferance the exact amount,but rather a
complex consideration of medium type,other nutrients,microbial/fungus activity,strain,phase of growth and other,enough....

No matter if it helps cannabinoid biosynthesis or not..

It is not an element with extended limits,anyway...
You cannot "push the limits",with P...IMO
You cannot "play" with P...IMO
Go for less than 50ppm or more than 200-300ppm(mean available concentration..),sit back and you will soon find out, what it will happen..

Gotta disagree with you homeboy, but thats the game we play. check the graph on page 3.

it compares 15 different crops and their P requirement in comparison to the Secondary Nutrients (Ca, Mg, S). plants disagree with you as well.

 

[Ophis]

Gotta disagree with you homeboy, but thats the game we play. check the graph on page 3.

it compares 15 different crops and their P requirement in comparison to the Secondary Nutrients (Ca, Mg, S). plants disagree with you as well.

Where exactly the plants disagree with me?

These crops have total different needs depending on their species,cultivation practices,climate and many other things.....It doesn't write anywhere on the graph "Cannabis Sativa var."x"-for example..

As I stated before,from my personal research,I 've reached(after long-long time of experimenting,measuring and calculating) to a "GENERAL" rule,specific for Cannabis(mainly for Sativa Dominant Strains/Hybrids..):

Average content of Ca in medium:250ppm-max 500ppm
" " " Mg " : 80ppm-max 150ppm
" " " S " : 400ppm-max 1000ppm
" " " P " : 90ppm-max 200ppm

It doesn't seem to have a big difference in ratios with the graph,though...

Still,I don't understand where exactly you disagree...

I never mentioned that the secondary macronutrients,are of less importance than any of the primary.... Or that they are needed in smaller quantities...
On the contrary...
As you can see(on a previous post of mine,at this topic) Sulphur is needed,almost at the same quantities,as Nitrogen(maybe even a bit more!)and Potassium....
Calcium is needed at bigger quantities than Phosphorus..
Magnesium is needed,almost at the same quantity as Phosphorus...

But still,these are solely,my hard findings,according and depending to my own "microclimate" of growing ,nutes,fav strains,cultivation practices-techniques and much more...
Thanx for the pdf... Enlightening,indeed

P.S. Still,myshelf I'm trying to figure out the basis of this classification ..Primary & Secondary...
It seems to me that the secondary macronutrients(although needed in bigger quantities than some of the primaries,in many cases..) S-Ca-Mg are classified as "secondary",probably because of their natural abudance(rocks,sand,clay..)..
The primaries,probably acclaimed their title,not only of their importance(even if they are needed by plants, in low quantities,like P),but also for their relative sparseness..(N is volatile usually or gets flushed deeper in the ground,P is very"active" ,reacts with almost everything and locks up pretty easy,K is relatively rare and usually "put-aside" from the abundant Na...)
*Always,reffering to natural occuring resources of the above nutrients..*

 

[dizzlekush]

It doesn't write anywhere on the graph "Cannabis Sativa var."x"-for example..

Sulphur is needed,almost at the same quantities,as Nitrogen(maybe even a bit more!)and Potassium....

you got some interesting opinions mate. heres that nutrient profile for Cannabis sativa that you needed for my point to be valid.

 

[Ophis]

you got some interesting opinions mate. heres that nutrient profile for Cannabis sativa that you needed for my point to be valid.

Interesting opinions?You are reffering to Sulphur?
It seems a bit high? Uh?

Still I don't get what is your point...
I can't understand where exactly you disagree...
In the pdf about HEMP (not the same as drug types of Cannabis,but anyway..)
It says Nutrient up take of Macronutrients..I will stand to the Ritz research (1972) as it is more modern and the one with bigger yields...

N:109 kg/ha P:64kg/ha K:118kg/ha
My "graph" N:300ppm (average) P:90ppm K:400ppm....
It differs in P only..I have found that it needs less P(almost half the amount..) that the Ritz research states...
Also hemp type Cannabis needs about 1/4 of the Sulphur,drug types need....
(Sulphur,probably plays a significant role in terpene and cannabinoid biosynthesis,mate...
Observation have showed me that it takes about the same amount of Sulphur to show toxicity signs,as Nitrogen...Plus,supplying Sulphur,the smell of the plants,really becomes.... a problem.
Can't confirm though of better potency...
Taste and Aroma ,for sure,had a big difference,....)

 

[snoopytime]

DizzleKush are you MrDizzle?

 

[snoopytime]

A plant feeling hot?
It will try to compensate to water evaporation and loss,fungus attacks and many other side effects of high temps ,by adopting a more "airy"and taller stature...As simple as that..Nature & Survival.....

As for more blue light which has a same effect...
More blue means more altitude to the plant....Nature & Survival..
It is not "wise" to be a a tall thin tree,in a place full of wind most of times,drought and high intensity light..

Lack of light?Plant increases, its internodal length,to penetrate the canopy of other plants,trying to find a way to receive more light..

It's a jungle,out there for the plants...
Nature & Survival...

This sounds a lot like . . E$kob@r!!!!

 

[dizzlekush]

Interesting opinions?You are reffering to Sulphur?
It seems a bit high? Uh?

Still I don't get what is your point...
I can't understand where exactly you disagree...
In the pdf about HEMP (not the same as drug types of Cannabis,but anyway..)
It says Nutrient up take of Macronutrients..I will stand to the Ritz research (1972) as it is more modern and the one with bigger yields...

N:109 kg/ha P:64kg/ha K:118kg/ha
My "graph" N:300ppm (average) P:90ppm K:400ppm....
It differs in P only..I have found that it needs less P(almost half the amount..) that the Ritz research states...
Also hemp type Cannabis needs about 1/4 of the Sulphur,drug types need....
(Sulphur,probably plays a significant role in terpene and cannabinoid biosynthesis,mate...
Observation have showed me that it takes about the same amount of Sulphur to show toxicity signs,as Nitrogen...Plus,supplying Sulphur,the smell of the plants,really becomes.... a problem.
Can't confirm though of better potency...
Taste and Aroma ,for sure,had a big difference,....)

Nice post mate. i need to do more research on my secondary nutrients. i personally disagree with your statements that MJ needs >50ppm P (see DesertSquirrel's grows for a prime example of plants bloomed with ~30ppm P) and i personally doubt if P is properly kept available that >100ppm will ever have a use.

and i dont know the bio-mechanics behind high P and stretch, but ive proven it to myself as well as read it in tons of places, trust me when i say that low P (<50ppm) for the first 21 days of bloom will do nothing but good.

 

[dizzlekush]

DizzleKush are you MrDizzle?

Call me Kush, MrDizzle is my father.

No seriously, i have no idea who MrDizzle is.

 

[snoopytime]

Oh OK man, no worries, a kool kat from another forum pretty sharp too, thought you might be him

 

[Ophis]

Nice post mate. i need to do more research on my secondary nutrients. i personally disagree with your statements that MJ needs >50ppm P (see DesertSquirrel's grows for a prime example of plants bloomed with ~30ppm P) and i personally doubt if P is properly kept available that >100ppm will ever have a use.

and i dont know the bio-mechanics behind high P and stretch, but ive proven it to myself as well as read it in tons of places, trust me when i say that low P (<50ppm) for the first 21 days of bloom will do nothing but good.

Well...
I can't really disagree with you here...
I've already mentioned that P is a highly reactive/unstable element...
So,in fact,it is quite difficult for P..to stay around in a bio-available and bio-absorbable form...That's true...
As it is also true ,that P usually takes part in RNA and DNA synthase,ATP synthase(Krebs Cycle...) and in a variety of enzymatic metabolic reactions.....Also "everything" ,starts from
Geranyl pyrophosphate (2 atoms of P in the molecule)..combining with olivetolic acid or divarinolic acid..

Still,myshelf never was able to connect initial "bloom" streching with P abudance..
Sure P is needed most at the beggining of life cycle of cannabis...
Moreover,P is a mobile element,so already absorbed P,gets translocated ,according where the plant needs it more..
Add the fact that It is quite rare to notice a P deficiency.
And not so rare to notice P toxicity!
P is not a "building" material like N or S..

Myshelf, never was ,very fond of high P usage,during flowering,also..
Always believed that K,N,Ca and S are much more important for blooming...
Anyway,I never tried to go so low on P,though..
I know that excess P ,can mess up the pH,pretty easy and because of its reactiveness could establish unavailability of other elements...

{In a way,its safe to claim,that Magnesium shares the same .."character" with Phosphorus.It locks up other elements and itshelf,messes up the pH,unstable and toxic in high doses...I find it natural,that their range of ideal concentration in medium and into plant tissue,is always approximately,the same....And IMO both needed,in reasonably small doses(80-90 average,200ppm max.),only on the first 3-4 weeks,maybe even 5th week,(indoors) of the lifecycle,of the plant....During blooming its better to keep them relatively low,in favor of bigger doses of K,Ca and S..}


Anyway...

I can't speak and condemn(or stand up for) something, I've never tested..
After all, the hard facts are leading to the assumption ,that your approach,hasn't any flaws,really...

The Horticulture and Food Research Institute of New Zealand Ltd.


Maybe,you are totally right..

 

[Ophis]

This sounds a lot like . . E$kob@r!!!!

Uh?
The "known" E$kob@r...?
In what way I sound like him,mate?
It was supposed to be what,your comment?
Be kind and explain me,please...

 

[ShroomDr]

OK this thread was very hard to follow when spurr's posts were invisible.

But now im even more confused.

ALL this data is from four decades ago?

Cannabinoid Profile and Elemental Uptake of Cannabis sativa L. as Influenced by Soil Characteristics.... ...Haney and Kutscheid (1973) reported positive correlation of total soil N with A~THC levels in wild C. sativa in Illinois. A highly significant positive correlation... ....writers have indicated that CBD may be a precursor of Ag THC in C. sativa (Kiippers, Lousberg, and Bercht, 1973; Farnsworth, 1969). These data suggested that increased ....
Cannabinoids belong to the chemical class of natural terpenophenols. P may be involved in cannabinoid reactions by interaction of geraniol phosphate and olivetol which may form CBD precursors (Mechou- lam, 1973). These, in turn, may transform to Ag THC and eventually CBN."

.....involved in cannabinoid biosynthesis via the interaction of geraniol phosphate and olivetol (Mechoulam,. 1973). The other elements may affect related enzymatic reactions."

I thought an interesting look at THC and CBD was worth posting here: temp

"Photosynthesis and Cannabinoid Content of Temperate and Tropical Populations of Cannabis sativa"
F.A. BAZZAZ, D. DUSEK, D.S. SEIGLER and A.W. HANEY
Biochemical Systematics and Ecology (1975), Vol. 3, pp. 15-18

• I uploaded the full text, it can be found here

This means next to sweet fuck all... growing different genotypes in different environments can't provide useful comparable data. This figure is essentially useless in terms of drawing valid conclusions.... christ man the paper is from 1975 ... we still thought THC was the result of cyclization fo CBD back then. How about some actually pertinent data?

I completely agree, So did this thread get to 74 posts?



dizzlekush's citations are flawed for the same reasons. Also, i wonder if dizzlekush has seen SamtheSkunkMan's posts on pure THC?

Not trying to call you out, this thread has enough of an adversarial bs, just trying to get back at the Mg and P discussion, and im wondering if any of this 'elemental necessity' data is current?

Personally, ive been playing around with elemental P ~<55ppm and having no issues with potency...

(BOG Blush ~55 extended nights)

(Im about to load up my first volcano's worth of this shit!)

What should someone do if they see premature interveinal clorolosris? (Generally a low or locked out Mg issue)? I would assume for THIS data that one should ignore it... Not sure, and ive never really had the problem.

 

[VerdantGreen]

the plant in the picture looks like it's suffering from heat stress and nutrient toxicity

 

[elmanito]

Yeah, to much nutes, but can anyone show me a graphic, where P is involved in the cannabinoid synthesis.To my knowledge and according to the article of David Pate Chemical ecology of Cannabis are the minerals Fe and Mg more involved into the cannabinoid synthesis than macronutrients like P.In humans Mg is also involved into 300 different enzymatic processes and like the plant itself we also produce endocannabinoids.

Namaste

 

[Ophis]

Yeah, to much nutes, but can anyone show me a graphic, where P is involved in the cannabinoid synthesis.To my knowledge and according to the article of David Pate Chemical ecology of Cannabis are the minerals Fe and Mg more involved into the cannabinoid synthesis than macronutrients like P.In humans Mg is also involved into 300 different enzymatic processes and like the plant itself we also produce endocannabinoids.

Namaste

Just look at page 5 of this thread....

 

[elmanito]

Just look at page 5 of this thread....

I've seen that graphic with the Geranylpyrophosphate, so Geranylphosphate + Olivetol = CBGA, but is P still needed for the conversion of CBGA into THCA that is my question.When enzymes are involved it is most likely that Mg or Fe is been used or perhaps another mineral like cobalt.

Namaste

 

[Ophis]

I've seen that graphic with the Geranylpyrophosphate, so Geranylphosphate + Olivetol = CBGA, but is P still needed for the conversion of CBGA into THCA that is my question.When enzymes are involved it is most likely that Mg or Fe is been used or perhaps another mineral like cobalt.

Namaste

THCA Biosynthesis......

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/60/13/3715.full#F2

A/B

Acetyl-CoA=C23H38N7O17P3S

Malonyl-CoA=C24H38N7O19P3S


n-Hexanoyl-CoA=C27H46N7O17P3S

Prenyltransferases are a class of enzymes that transfer allylic prenyl groups to acceptor molecules. Prenyl transferases commonly refer to prenyl diphosphate synthases.

Acyl-ACP=The acyl carrier protein (ACP) is an important component in both fatty acid and polyketide biosynthesis with the growing chain bound during synthesis as a thiol ester at the distal thiol of a 4'-phosphopantethiene* moiety.

Phosphopantethiene/Phosphopantetheine=C11H23N2O7PS.... "thei-/thie-" from Hellenic "Theion/Thieon"=Sulphur....

................................................................
C

Linoleic acid=C18H32O2


Lipoxygenase=Lipoxygenases are a family of iron-containing enzymes that catalyse the dioxygenation of polyunsaturated fatty acids in lipids containing a cis,cis-1,4- pentadiene structure. It catalyses the following reaction:
fatty acid + O2 = fatty acid hydroperoxide

...................................
D
This part of synthesis( from Malate to Geranyl pyrophosphate) has a lot of Phoshorus,"in situ".

(DOXP) reductoisomerase =1-Deoxy-D-xylulose 5-phosphate


..................................

So P(plenty..),S and Fe up till now,for sure...

Well I'll need a lot of time to search & write everything..
Something I don't have right now..
Time...
So,you 'll have to forgive me,not being able to write down every enzyme,catalyst and every other formula...

The thing is that I don't believe,that supplying the plant with extra P,S or Fe you will "force" it,to
produce more trichomes or more THCA per trichome(gland).Likewise,I don't believe that reasonable levels of Mg or N or whatever else lowers the potency...Neither I believe that "starving" the plant from a mineral,has a positive impact,generally...Adopting such techniques & practices,maybe could show some "gains" here & there..But,there is no way,that there isn't a "price to pay",somewhere else...

The necessary minerals,used in THCA(..and other cannabinoids,also) biosynthesis,have just to be in adequate amounts.. Probably (and logically...)you will need to supply more of them,if you trigger another kind of "mechanism",which will force the plant into producing more trichomes or THCA/cannabinoids per gland.
Maybe inducing a hormone,like Methyl Jasmonate or a "stress" factor like U.V.b irradiation will get the "job" done...Some kind of "stress" to activate the desirable response..

BUT....

A "productive" plant must be as "fit" & as healthy as possible,to "to unfold" a remarkable "performance",considering its own life cycle and both quality and quantity of final product...

If you stress,starve or "torcher",by any other means possible, the plant,in the name "of performance",it sounds & it is an ironic contradiction....
Stress of any kind has,possibly,a "positive" effect,to the desirable trait,only if applied in long term,overtime...Through a number of successive generations of the plant,as a strain.
Individual plants "suffer" from stress..Until slowly,as strain,"to get used to" it....

"Fooling"(?) Nature,to achieve the "maximal" at a trait-here and now-, it is,in most cases,done at the expense of another trait(-s)....
In fact it is,plainly, a mere compromise....

Plants are like all the other living organisms.They need the best possible environmental conditions,just to reach to their maximum genetic potential.. If ever,in cases of demanding strains or even phenomenal "individuals",within a strain...

Superior cultivating techniques & practices,along with abudance of every "first material*" needed,
ensure that the environment will not be an "alien territory" for the plant.That the plant will not be stressed by any means...
That is the only way,for the plant,to "thrive".To reach its "genetic maximum potential.That is if you want the best "score" from a plant..
(*H20=aprox.75%w/w of almost every living tissue on Earth,minerals,CO2,)

Adapting to survive,it's something else...

To "go beyond" that "maximum",you have to alter that "genetic potential profile"..
Either directly by altering,in vitro,the genome,via genetic engineering...
Or,in vivo,attempt to gain the desirable traits,via genetic sorting & separating and genetic drifting,generation after generation ,incorporating,simultanouesly, selective breeding with an appropriate SAR Factor,applied in an appropriate way and manner ...

I think Nature uses both ways..Either by "short-termed" random mutations*as a response to "high stress" factors or by "long-termed" environmental adaptation to "low stress" factors.

*I believe that cancer is nature's rapid- & usually unsuccessful-response to a "high stress" factor,a kind of "Severe Panic Response".The stress is heavily life threatening (viruses,smoking, many everyday use chemicals, cellphone/wi-fi microwaves,radioenergy,and many more),so Nature...goes to Vegas!
"-I'm loosin' already,gimme tha dam' dices...".Random mutations....
If the mutation fails,to aid the organism to survive the "high stress" conditions ,the new "trait" gets "erased",along with its carrier...
The faulty trait must not have a future..


Nature Laws..
Survival of the fittest & best adapted to the environment...
C'est la vie...

P.S.": Stress is something truly "relevant"..
For example,irradiating, continuously for 6 hours per day,with 500uWatt/cm2 U.V.b radiation, a Sativa dominant hybrid or a landrace Sativa,originating from 0-15 degrees Latitude,would be something normal and expected by the plant.It has already developed the necessary mechanisms(THCA?) to withstand (...and use,against insect attacks?) that kind of "stress"..
Whereas an Indica dominant hybrid(or landrace, at about,or/and over,30-40 degrees Latitude),will greatly suffer,if not die,from the exact same treatment.....

-Though,some Indica variants,originating from high altitudes-more U.V.b-are bright exceptions..Exhibiting higher levels of THCA,of course....
Few survivors,in their far"past",adapted,
offspringing more and more adapted descendants,over time...-

A practice,a special technique or an environmental attribute becomes "stress" when it surpasses a certain threshold or "ceiling"-While,remaining under it,probably,is expected by the plant and why not,maybe it is ,mandatory or/and ideal,also....
Likewise, some plants expect to be "bitten"(defoliated-topped) by animals ,because it is part of their natural life and moreover,maybe this act,plays a significant role to them,so to survive,thrive and multiply...

Getting to know,as much as possible,the specific needs & tolerances of a plant,to the smallest detail possible,(its "blueprints") and appropriately & carefully "biasing" and tuning the(artificial or not) growing environment,practices & techniques and other cultivating aspects,so that, the plant will feel more "like at home,at its best moments", it is not called "stressing"....
Moreover,understanding "why" a trait exists,firstplace, along with "decoding" its full operational mechanism & processes,will successfully point out the appropriate SAR factor to use,how and when,if needed so...

"Denying" P or Mg to a plant,that is used to low levels of P or Mg, it is not "stress"..
Doing so,on another,might be catastrophic...
"Stressing" affects negatively the individual plant....
There is not such a thing as "positive stressing"....
There is only "good" and "bad" environment to live within ....
Black 'n'White...
Life and Death...
When found in "any shade of grey",the plant,tries not to die,
to keep living at any cost,
just to adapt,if possible,for the sake of future generations....
It is not an eminent representative of the strain,though,no matter what......
It lacks the "chance" to outstand...
All it "wants" is to evolve and preserve its kind...
If and when that gets accomplished,then the plant will thrive....