Low Mg, High P for High THC Content?

[guest456mpy]

Verdant Green,

I read this section, but rarely feel a "need" to post.

I don't believe anyone on ICmag wanted spurr banned. I enjoyed reading his posts and often agreed with his observations. However we all have to conduct ourselves in a polite manner. If he has an objective attitude then perhaps he will re-examine his method of interaction with others and return with a more kind and thoughtful approach towards others. It has happened before with others members and they returned with a new attitude, no problems.

 

[zymos]

Im sure i wont be the only member here who's sad to see him go.

Believe me, you aren't.

 

[Scrogerman]

No fkin way, whoever banned Sprurr wants shooting(figure of speech-i dont wana get banned either), what a loss to IC! like Verd says, man was willing to put the work in & educate people atleast. sad loss to the site imo too! fkin crazy insult! a lot of people lose out now! thats wrong! what did he actually get a ban for?

You should get out what you put in!

 

[supermanlives]

spurr is gone? wow we lost a great member with alot to contribute . sad day

 

[Hammerhead]

your just going to get this thread closed discusing the baning of someone..

 

[dizzlekush]

@HammerHead you just contributed about 20% of the discussion about Spurr. nobody is preventing you from posting about high P and low Mg and their correlation to THC levels. thanks for... trying to establish authority.

you are obviously a high P user, any comments on the subject while you drop by?

 

[YosemiteSam]

You know the science is interesting and all and yes, I do read it and if I find it interesting I give it a shot. But, imo, it is a mistake to totally ignore what great growers are up to when they take the time to share.

Given the choice my first instinct is to trust growers who show pics of gardens that impress me. Copy one of those and then start reading the science, check out what other good growers are up to and tweak things to suit yourself.

Beating up on each other is counterproductive...it actually is possible to debate without personalizing a single thing. I guess that is too much to hope for though.

mt 2 cents anyways

 

[Hammerhead]

I have no clue why you need to make things personnel.. I follow the rules just like you and your buddy have to.. You already know that's a TOU violation but you continue to discuss it..I have absolutely no authority here but I have read the TOU.. You probably just got your thread closed...I wont post in here anymore. You all have a good day ...

 

[elmanito]

Cannabinoids belong to the chemical class of natural terpenophenols. P may be involved in cannabinoid reactions by interaction of geraniol phosphate and olivetol which may form CBD precursors (Mechou- lam, 1973). These, in turn, may transform to Ag THC and eventually CBN."

With this statement we can say fare well.I don't think P is involved in THC-synthases.Actually you will have more chance with the use of Sea-Crop, sea solids or rock dust, which have a high content of minerals and trace elements than with fertilizers with high P in it.
It's a pity Spurr is gone, but the theory of Justus von Liebig has proven to be wrong.

http://remineralize.org/

Like what Chimera said, Cannabis is more than Thc alone

http://cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf

Namaste

 

[Ophis]

Well,across the Atlantic,some of us still believe that Nitrogen and Phosphorus,must be supplied all the way from start to end of Cannabis life cycle...Just the quantities change during Vegging and Flowering...Without N and P,many metabolic acts of the plant diminish or even cease...

The K plays a very significant role,mainly through the act of Osmosis in the vacuole of cell plant...
No K? Not satisfactory water and mineral management ,inside plant cell..Disaster,in other words...
K "pumps" the volume of plant cell..Specially during Fowering..
Easy to conclude, that an abudance of K in medium is needed for massive yields(accompanied with the correct amounts of N and P)...

If you are looking for a "miracle" element/mineral to boost THC levels,then,maybe,you should do some research for ..Cobalt(Co) or
Vitamin B-12(cyanocobalamine-contains Cobalt...)

Alkaloid Accumulation
Alkaloid accumulation in medicinal plants such as downy thorn apple Datura innoxia Mill. (88), Atropa caucasica (89), belladonna A. belladonna L. (90), and horned poppy Glaucium flavum Crantz (91) is regulated by cobalt. It also increased rutin (11.6%) and cyanide (67%) levels in different species of buckwheat (Fagopyrum sagittatum Gilib., F. tataricum Gaertn., and F. emargitatum) (89,92).

http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...lt/beneficial_effects_of_cobalt_on_plants.php


As for Magnesium and Calcium..There is a lot of research need to be done to discover the exact role of Ca in cannabinoid biosynthesis and the "love-hate" relashionship,it has with the "light-arresting"Mg...


Nobody mentioned the much more valuable Sulphur,though..

http://www.eplantscience.com/botani...trients/sulfur/sulfur_in_plant_physiology.php

Cheers..

 

[grapeman]

I just thought I'd throw in a real world observation, since I tire of this "my theory is correct" shit.

Some here say low P is not detrimental to plant growth.

In the real world and not in the back room with a couple pots as a control, we all know that P applications in the spring is necessary for optimal root growth. This fact is well documented and there is no longer a discussion about that fact but here, where the back room growers who want to be farmers try to pawn their bullshit off on unsuspecting growers for their own accolades.

Comical really.

 

[HUGE]

Spurr is banned? He is / was the smartest person on icmag. Huge disappointment

 

[C21H30O2]

High levels of P make mic. fungi die or go dormant ... not good in an organic soil or outdoors.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I just thought I'd throw in a real world observation, since I tire of this "my theory is correct" shit.

Some here say low P is not detrimental to plant growth.

In the real world and not in the back room with a couple pots as a control, we all know that P applications in the spring is necessary for optimal root growth. This fact is well documented and there is no longer a discussion about that fact but here, where the back room growers who want to be farmers try to pawn their bullshit off on unsuspecting growers for their own accolades.

Comical really.

Before I answer allow me to ask if this is aimed at me? Cause I said and believe that 30 ppm P is plenty all of the way through flower...and you no clue what I grow or how I do controls. And it is not my theory, I have zero invested in it...just an observation based on things I have tried.

In fact I would be happy to try a "high P, low K" formula if anyone is willing to share on a ppm basis what that might be exactly. And if it works better I will happily admit I am wrong and share the results. I am here to learn how to grow more and better cannabis...I could give one fuck about being right.

I'll just say P in soil, say for growing grapes, is a very different thing than P in pots. But yea...make too much available and you will fuck your microbiology...check out what happened in the Everglades from vegetable grower P runoff...turns out swamps are pretty delicate microbiology systems...and FL veggie growers are just pigs that think more is better...as opposed to good growers who take the time to dial things and protect the environment around them.

 

[dizzlekush]

@Grapeman in case you didn't notice, this is in the "Cannabis Botany and Advanced Growing Science" category, not the "Farmer John's Observation" category. i respect your expertise, but this is supposed to be a 'scientific' discussion about Mg and P and their relation to THC production, not a discussion about the high inavailability of soluble P in a natural environment.

 

[Microbeman]

It's actually not the 'ancilliary' cannabinoids that create the difference in psychoactive effects; it's the terpenes.

Research has recently showed that terpenes are also able to bind the cannabinoid receptors, as are various other molecules present in cannabis.

You can have two different buds both with the exact same cannabinoid profile but each has completely different psychological experiences. This is a result of the differences in terpene profiles.

These are known as 'entourage molecules' or the entourage effect.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

(Verdant, your complaint is noted.. as is your lack of input! We're you going to add something to the thread, or just whine?)

Grammar Police;

We're = we are

 

[Ophis]

In any case I don't want to be the "smartass"...
Or reveal my "theory"....
Minerals react with each other....
Both "outdoors" and "indoors"....
Add also, any microbiological/fungal activity in the medium and
things really get complicated....
Trying to make it simple...

Massive amounts of P is needed outdoors because most of it will react with Ca,Mo,Mg and other minerals, only to form unsoluble ortho/pyro/ect./phosphoric salts and finally become unavailable to the plants...

While the plant is forming an extended root system,still a big amount of P is needed for a healthy root system...

When it comes to enzymatic reactions or other metabolic activity,where P,maybe plays a significant role(cannabinoid biosynthesis?)as a catalyst or whatever else,P is not needed by the plant in so big quantities....

For starters it is proven that P doesn't play a huge role in flowering forming(Caution:flowering forming and not fruit forming and rippening..That's another story...)
Instead,research(google it..)have shown that N(proteins,the ..substance of flowers) and K ("pumps"plant cell vacuolle,with minerals and water.) play a really huge role in flower yield( as biomass)

Although,some older research have shown that plenty of Ca,affects
cannabinoid biosynthesis,the same research never investigated why and how this is happening...

In fact a lot of Ca,will put the plant in a "suicidal" pathway...
Cannabis prefers Ca instead of Mg....
Without the necessary,though Mg,photosynthesis cease...
Probably the answer is somewhere hidden behind.."timming".
At least for the indoor grower...(where time really counts...)
Maybe while the plant still grows towards maturity, it needs a lot of Mg,for photosynthesis(afterwards,it moves the absorbed Mg-mobile element-where is needed most...) and less Ca...

During flowering,maybe feeding should change,in favor of more Ca absorption...(as Mg is already there,absorbed by the plant...)

Further research,though,is needed,not just speculations....

For us ,humble growers, a "try & error" method, seems the only way,to reach to a relatively safe, conclusion...

My personal research have showed me a "general" rule....

(min/average/max/*toxicity for plant/@best form ) in ppm


PRIMARY MACRONUTRIENTS

N-:150-300-1000 *toxic over 1000 ppm,changes pH

@ -No3[ KNO3,Ca(NO3)2] for overall growth/flowering in aero/hydro/soilless-lowers Ph,
but when absorbed raises pH,
+NH4 [NH4NO3,(NH4)2SO4] for Seedlings/young plants-all mediums-raises pH,
but when absorbed lowers pH,
UREA [CO(NH2)2] for slow release of N-best for soil,organics-neutral,
but when absorbed lowers pH

P-:50-90-200 *promotes algae/fungal/nematode growth over 300 ppm,toxic
@ P2O5 lowers pH

K-:100-400-1000
@ KNO3,K2O raises pH

SECONDARY MACRONUTRIENTS

Ca-:100-250-500 *Raises pH,locks up other
elements over 500 ppm
@CaCO3,CaO raises pH

Mg-:50-80-150 *locks up other elements
over 150 ppm
@MgSO4,lowers pH- MgOH,MgO,MgCO3 raises pH

S-:200-400-1000
MgSO4 lowers pH

MICRONUTRIENTS

Fe-:2-5-15
@ CHELATED (EDTA,FULVIC & HUMIC ACIDS)

B-:0.5-2-5 *toxic over 10 ppm

Mn-:0.5-2-5 *toxic over 5 ppm
@ CHELATED

Zn-:0.5-0.7-1 *toxic over 1.5 ppm
@ CHELATED

Mo-:0.01-0.02-0.05 * very toxic over 0.07 ppm

Cu-:0.1-0.5-0.7 * very toxic over 0.7 ppm
@CHELATED

Cl-:5-15-40 * very toxic over 50 ppm

Co-:0.01-0.1-0.5 *toxic over 0.5 ppm
@ Vitamin B 12 {Cyanocobalamines}

Si-:0,5-10-40

Na-:5-20-50 * very toxic over 50ppm,locks up Potassium (K)

TRACES

Ni-:-

V-: Toxic over 1 ppm

Al-: -

 

[grapeman]

Before I answer allow me to ask if this is aimed at me? Cause I said and believe that 30 ppm P is plenty all of the way through flower...and you no clue what I grow or how I do controls. And it is not my theory, I have zero invested in it...just an observation based on things I have tried.

In fact I would be happy to try a "high P, low K" formula if anyone is willing to share on a ppm basis what that might be exactly. And if it works better I will happily admit I am wrong and share the results. I am here to learn how to grow more and better cannabis...I could give one fuck about being right.

I'll just say P in soil, say for growing grapes, is a very different thing than P in pots. But yea...make too much available and you will fuck your microbiology...check out what happened in the Everglades from vegetable grower P runoff...turns out swamps are pretty delicate microbiology systems...and FL veggie growers are just pigs that think more is better...as opposed to good growers who take the time to dial things and protect the environment around them.

No - not aimed at you or anyone in particular. but over the last year I have seen post after post talking about using less and less P. Now if you have an adequate available P and adequate uptake then no worries.

I'm pointing out that P is extremely necessary for root development and not just for Trics, as discussed here.

And yes I am aware of the organic relationship. But I didn't see that this was in the organic forum.

 

[grapeman]

@Grapeman in case you didn't notice, this is in the "Cannabis Botany and Advanced Growing Science" category, not the "Farmer John's Observation" category. i respect your expertise, but this is supposed to be a 'scientific' discussion about Mg and P and their relation to THC production, not a discussion about the high inavailability of soluble P in a natural environment.

LOL - Gee thanks. But I can assure you that after decades of farming with bi-annual soil analysis coupled with multiple petiole anaylsis per season to correlate products used with results obtained, I would think I am long past the "farmer john" category.

I have been saying for a few years here that light applications of phosphites during the grow (through week 5) increase all things good within the plant. But folks, maybe like yourself, that talk too much theory and not near enough practical knowledge, tell themselves they know better. And gee wizz, it doesn't even disturb the good little critters in our soil.

 

[dizzlekush]

But I can assure you that after decades of farming with bi-annual soil analysis coupled with multiple petiole anaylsis per season to correlate products used with results obtained, I would think I am long past the "farmer john" category

true enough.