Lockout?

[420PyRoS]

I'm a tap water user also. I just PH only.
Tap water in one place maybe different than another. I found out the last place I lived the water came from a river. My indoor plants looooved it without modification from seed to harvest.

I haven't tried the water here from tap where i live now, but again EC is (kinda) pointless measurement of whatever is in the water. You just gotta figure out what the plant is missing by listening to it, in YOUR specific area and boom, no more issues. Maybe it's iron, maybe calcium, maybe magnesium etc...

I will say though too high an EC (depending on formula used for ppm/tds) is a concern because there's too much of some thing or a bunch of somethings that might build up in medium over time. That's why I say EC is pointless, (Kinda), but detecting high amounts of possible salts is still bad.

 

[420PyRoS]

Oh, and in simple terms... I chalk up tap water ppm whether or not the water tastes good or not.

That's it. Too little, it's kinda bland if that makes sense... too much its salty/metallic and yuck tasting.

300 - 480 ppm I can live with. Just yummy

(Now how much lead is in there?) Lol

 

[Creeperpark]

Creeper . . . I have to challenge you on this. I have seen you make these definitive statements before and if what you say is correct, I might as well shut off my lights now, chop my flowering monster down and go to the local dispensary for my pot. But somehow . . . . I have jarred a couple of kilos of some pretty decent ganja over the last 5 years. With tap water. And I know that I am not alone. So while you may be right – that in an ideal world you need RO - in the real world – many of us manage just fine.

My current grow . . .

View attachment 18865718

You have different tap water without all the buffering capacity that Dan has. Remember all tap waters are not the same and are different because of where it percolates from after it hits the ground. Some tap water can be used if they are clean enough, but some can not .

Also, the different treatment of municipal water treatments is different according to the soil and water chemistry in each location. Tap water in the mountains is very clean and more usable than tap water in the deep south lowlands. All tap waters are not the same and if they were everyone would be using only tap. Why do so many people use RO water today? Because their tap water isn't as good and has problems. .

 

[Creeperpark]

Dan has given a good description of what he using without any flaws.

Shogun nutrients - A/B gradually worked up to 3ml per litre, Calmag 1ml per litre, Silicon 1ml per litre, Roots was 0.2ml per litre stopped 2 weeks ago.
pH 5.8 - 6.2 usually closer to 6.0
Fed usually daily, drain to waste, but occasionally 2 days and once 3 days apart.

I don't see anything wrong with his description other than using 300 ppm tap water.

Creeper . . . I have to challenge you on this. I have seen you make these definitive statements before and if what you say is correct, I might as well shut off my lights now, chop my flowering monster down and go to the local dispensary for my pot. But somehow . . . . I have jarred a couple of kilos of some pretty decent ganja over the last 5 years. With tap water. And I know that I am not alone. So while you may be right – that in an ideal world you need RO - in the real world – many of us manage just fine.

My current grow . . .

View attachment 18865718

The only way you can say that is if you used his tap water and got the same results.

 

[Creeperpark]

Lastly, fertilizer is not medicine. It is intended only for healthy plants that are growing vigorously.

 

[Ca++]

Oh, and in simple terms... I chalk up tap water ppm whether or not the water tastes good or not.

That's it. Too little, it's kinda bland if that makes sense... too much its salty/metallic and yuck tasting.

300 - 480 ppm I can live with. Just yummy

(Now how much lead is in there?) Lol

Below 5, things get acidic tasting. Coffee is down there, though many don't find things acidic until 4. That's fizzy pop levels of tang.
Above 8 things get a bit naff to.
There is a zone known as sweet water, which my search didn't find. Perhaps you need a good pallet for this sort of thing anyway.

I'm unsure what 300 - 480 is. I could have two functioning meters here, calibrated about right, with one saying 330 and one 450, sat in the same jug.
WTF? lol
Everybodies EC meter would say the same thing though. Using EC, we can communicate the state of our solutions.



As a serious example, how many oranges do I have?

My EC meter says 3.
My PPM meter says 2
My other PPM meter says 3
My other PPM meter has a switch, so it can say 2 or 3

I need to explain, without the picture, how many oranges I have. Would you like that in EC, or PPM?

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

300 PPM is 0.6 EC. In comparison the hard water I have is already 0.55 EC or 275 PPM.

You don't need extra calcium.

Also, a lot of water companies add chloride and/or chloramide to the water. If you let the water rest next to your plants for a day or so, the chloride has time to evaporate, and you'll see a lower PPM. It also lowers the pH.

300ppm, alone, tells us nothing. It's basically a lie. We can't measure ppm. We measure EC and convert it to a ppm. The greater problem is, that there are 4 ways to do this. Each different, with the common two about 40% different. It's amateur hour before we begin, so I'm not going to to say I know what this 300ppm even means. However, it's probably in the region that feeds expect you to have.

Most feeds are formulated to expect an EC of 0.3 - 0.4 from the tap. It's perfectly normal, and if you don't have that from your tap, you need to start using additives.

There is no sense in removing this moderate hardness from your tap, unless for some reason, your water is unusually balanced. In which case, you can buy a bottle of hardness, to put it back where it should be. Then carry on.

Some feeds have been formulated to work with soft water. People mixing their own would rather put everything they want into soft water, to know there is nothing else present. These are not the norm though.

Shogun comes from Sheffield iirc, which is about 0.3 at the tap. This is why the feed calculator asks your tap EC and says the feed is right for that water. Shogun is not right in RO or Rain, or any other such thing. You would have to fix the water if it were not 0.3 - 0.4 EC

This is exactly how it works with RODS. (Reverse Osmosis Desalination Systems)

Turning sea water into fresh water. EC measures output pass, converts to 'PPM' as a kinda measurement to say yay or nay with salt/mineral content. If it's low, around 420ppm and under, it's drinkable. If over it sends to a backup final pass filter to try and remove that little extra salt and retests the pass. If it fails again, it's dumped. Systems also have UV to sterilize the water before being passed.

Fractured my thumb on one of these bastards, I remember her well.

Anyway, it only really measures salt and mineral/metal content in the water by electrical conductivity as mentioned a few times now.

But you don't know how much of what you are measuring separately. It's a mixing pot of random shit and random %

Example. You can have water measuring 300ppm that's being measured by Electrical conductivity of the water. Meanwhile it might be 100% Calcium and nothing else. You can't measure the calcium content. Nor any other unless you start with a baseline of 0 ppm of some calculation and add salts/minerals

I just went online and got the breakdown from my water company. These are the results. I don't know why I didn't do this sooner. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

I just checked my meter and it says it does EC as well. First time I've seen this like a dumbass lol but its also not the same scale as others like 0.4 etc. This is what plain tap water looks like with both EC and ppm.



Would that mean 0.6 nearly 0.7 EC or is the meter just shit?

 

[420PyRoS]

Below 5, things get acidic tasting. Coffee is down there, though many don't find things acidic until 4. That's fizzy pop levels of tang.
Above 8 things get a bit naff to.
There is a zone known as sweet water, which my search didn't find. Perhaps you need a good pallet for this sort of thing anyway.

I'm unsure what 300 - 480 is. I could have two functioning meters here, calibrated about right, with one saying 330 and one 450, sat in the same jug.
WTF? lol
Everybodies EC meter would say the same thing though. Using EC, we can communicate the state of our solutions.



As a serious example, how many oranges do I have?

My EC meter says 3.
My PPM meter says 2
My other PPM meter says 3
My other PPM meter has a switch, so it can say 2 or 3

I need to explain, without the picture, how many oranges I have. Would you like that in EC, or PPM?

But that's what I'm saying. It's all over the place. Just that whatever calculation they use for ppm from EC varies everywhere. It's just generally speaking with the RODs system I used that 300ppm to 480ppm was just right tasting. I'm just going off that as my baseline, not to say that another EC meter determines the ppm completely different in ppm with the same water. It's just a tasting guess between those ppms from various calculations I would say mmm good tasting water.

Too high an EC, which will convert to ppm in some form of formula used, will change taste in water. It's just more or less minerals/salts which alter taste.

Everything can change EC differently in different concentrations from iron to salt within water. There's no way to measure PPM in any way or form accurately.

 

[420PyRoS]

Sorry I forgot to address the PH... that's assuming the water testing at 300 to 480 ppm is around 7. Of course we added bromine and ph and yadda yadda to final water to be able to drink. High EC salt content in PH 7 water still tastes yuck.

Low EC in 7 PH water is bland tasting.

Hope that is a bit clearer.

We would also produce low 0 EC water which is calculated to 0ppm (Their formula). This is used for making boiler feed water. This still has to be neutral PH'd in a way that doesn't add EC. We don't want water that can corrode the pipes and steam engines etc.



Anyway, moral of all this is EC I 'think' has a standard baseline of 0 with pure water with no minerals, salts etc if i remember right. It's the ONLY standard in measuring electrical conductivity to SAY there is stuff in the water, that is conductive like salts, because it alters the EC of water. TDS/ppm are just ... idk guesses and voodoo really.

 

[Creeperpark]

If a person uses a complete fertilizer and the appropriate pH the plant has no problems. A few manufacturers make specialized fertilizers for use with hard water.

However, if thinking the manufacturer is at fault or their fertilizers cause lockout when used correctly you are wrong. Like there's a missing nutrient or micronutrient. It's always a grower error when plants fail. The post above is using a complete two-part fertilizer and so there's no reason other than the grower's error. The only thing I can see wrong with his gear is using tap water. Some tap water is ok but others is not.

Check their website and you can see with their fertilizer they recommend using RO water.

 

[420PyRoS]

If a person uses a complete fertilizer and the appropriate pH the plant has no problems. A few manufacturers make specialized fertilizers for use with hard water.

However, if thinking the manufacturer is at fault or their fertilizers cause lockout when used correctly you are wrong. Like there's a missing nutrient or micronutrient. It's always a grower error when plants fail. The post above is using a complete two-part fertilizer and so there's no reason other than the grower's error. The only thing I can see wrong with his gear is using tap water. Some tap water is ok but others is not.

Check their website and you can see with their fertilizer they recommend using RO water.

But why use RO vs tap? Tap has low EC generally, and with RO you're trying to make something like tap water. I don't get it lol

Unless they want you to use 0 EC pure water and their soil adds the rest of the gobblty gook of minerals etc

 

[420PyRoS]

Sorry, it's different RO EC than what us sailers are used to drinking. They're talking very low EC water with RO and their ferts. I looked up what everyone thinks RO is and it's around whatever 25ppm is.. I'm guessing near zero EC

Ya use RO if they add the minerals in their mix. Otherwise tap will just add extra.

I still think whatever they claim 25ppm and up to 480 or some godly guess from tap water is just fine lmao

 

[Creeperpark]

But why use RO vs tap? Tap has low EC generally, and with RO you're trying to make something like tap water. I don't get it lol

Unless they want you to use 0 EC pure water and their soil adds the rest of the gobblty gook of minerals etc

Show me your tap water plants friend.

 

[Creeperpark]

Below 5, things get acidic tasting. Coffee is down there, though many don't find things acidic until 4. That's fizzy pop levels of tang.
Above 8 things get a bit naff to.
There is a zone known as sweet water, which my search didn't find. Perhaps you need a good pallet for this sort of thing anyway.

I'm unsure what 300 - 480 is. I could have two functioning meters here, calibrated about right, with one saying 330 and one 450, sat in the same jug.
WTF? lol
Everybodies EC meter would say the same thing though. Using EC, we can communicate the state of our solutions.



As a serious example, how many oranges do I have?

My EC meter says 3.
My PPM meter says 2
My other PPM meter says 3
My other PPM meter has a switch, so it can say 2 or 3

I need to explain, without the picture, how many oranges I have. Would you like that in EC, or PPM?

Show me your tap water plants.

 

[420PyRoS]

Show me your tap water plants.

 

[420PyRoS]

@Creeperpark I have lots more on computer and hard drives if you need more examples.


Anyways, I grow by PH, tap water and 'feel' of what the plants tell me I'm doing wrong.

 

[Creeperpark]

Thank you for sharing friend. Those are really pretty so you have good tap water. Have you ever tried growing using RO water or do you only use tap water?

 

[Ca++]

RO screws my yields on the whole. Dans 0.7 EC is perhaps in the south south/east where they have a lot of chalk. One Great guy here, moved from London to Wales, and started carting IBCs of water from London, because the Welsh soft water just wasn't doing it.

Dan, you are dunking that meter a bit deep. Most cheapies are not waterproof to that level.
Calibrated it lately?

 

[420PyRoS]

Thank you for sharing friend. Those are really pretty so you have good tap water. Have you ever tried growing using RO water or do you only use tap water?

I have tried with RO and spring. Spring was good but the RO I have slight harder time figuring out what to add as I use promix bx and hp that have no nutes.

The water from tap here is great, so I stick with it, chlorine and all. But your tap water may suck, or the OPs. Who knows, plants will tell ya.