Living organic soil from start through recycling

[IncredibowlBoss]

From a grams per watt point of view I do better with at least 4 plants per light. From a CO law point of view I get more total pounds without exceeding my limit at 1 plant per light...let your conscious be your guide.

Yup yup - I guess theoretically this concept is for a Colorado OPC licensed facility, so plant count is a moot point - the goal is max yield out of 12 lights - I'm advocating multiple smaller beds for more logistical flexibility for harvest and easier isolation in case of problems - and if I just need 11-12" of canopy space/plant, it could be a damned short veg... Might be a catastrophe, but if my math isn't too optimistic, it just might compete with hydro in terms of cost/gram in a warehouse environment (even if yield is 1/4 of hydro yield, cost will be 1/6 hydro cost, I believe).

 

[YosemiteSam]

Why do you think it will only yield that?

A lot of bullshit yields get reported and a few crops fail entirely in pure hydro setups...and almost all of them get poisoned along the way.

There is no reason you cannot go 1.5 llbs a light this way...the teas make a difference.

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

I always do my calculations at ~65% of my worst case scenario for what I'm hoping to do and 125% best case for what I'm comparing against - under promise/over deliver!

 

[Microbeman]

I always do my calculations at ~65% of my worst case scenario for what I'm hoping to do and 125% best case for what I'm comparing against - under promise/over deliver!

Have you read the outline of my set up?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Where might one read that?

 

[Weird]

great points but i think your shooting low sam imho

properly executed organics rival or are superior to hydroponics in every aspect except in time from start to maturation, being the true differential in hydroponics is speed

other considerations are in the microbiology

not the microbiology that simply feeds the plant

microbiology does so much more

plant health and immunity and drought resistance for instance

far more to the biology than that but the plant has adapted to dealing with its environment, in part through its relationship with the living soil through the rhizosphere

i think that is a huge consideration when measuring pros and cons versus hydro

Plant immune responses triggered by beneficial microbes

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369526608001003

Rhizosphere bacteria help plants tolerate abiotic stress

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1360138508002902

Rhizosphere bacteria help plants tolerate abiotic stress

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1360138508002902

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

So I actually sat down and crunched the numbers to calculate the actual efficiency of an organic vs high end bottled nutes garden. The hypothetical garden is fed/watered 100 gallons/week. Since the fancy warehouses here run Sensi A & B, I did the calcs with the 'professional recommendations' Advanced puts out for that line.

Now I know why I seem to have all this extra money around...

For my comparison, I presumed the organic garden would require 50 gallons per feeding at 2 feedings/week. The 10 week bloom cycle is divided into 20 bi-weekly feedings as follows:
Week 1: Compost Tea & Botanical Tea 'A'
Week 2: Botanical Tea 'B' & Botanical Tea 'C'
Week 3: Botanical Tea 'D' & Aloe Vera Drench
Week 4: Compost Tea & Botanical Tea 'A'
Week 5: Botanical Tea 'B' & Botanical Tea 'C'
Week 6: Botanical Tea 'D' & Aloe Vera Drench
Week 7: Compost Tea & Botanical Tea 'A'
Week 8: Botanical Tea 'B' & Botanical Tea 'C'
Week 9: Botanical Tea 'D' & Aloe Vera Drench
Week 10: H20 & H20

All teas (botanical & compost) would be prepared in a 50 gallon airlift brewer. This can be purchased for way too fucking much, or built from parts for <$400.


COST/50 Gallons (full feeding for 12 lights)
Compost Tea: < $17.00
Botanical Tea A: < $17
Botanical Tea B: < $6
Botanical Tea C: < $7
Botanical Tea D: < $7
Aloe Vera Drench: < $17.00

[Botanical Tea A, B, C & D are shorthand I use in my garden notes - each one combines two botanicals: kelp & alfalfa, yarrow & nettles, horsetail & borage, comfrey & dandelion]

By my calculations, to take 12 lights (consuming 50 gallons, twice per week) through a 10 week flower cycle would cost < ~$200 total for all feedings.


By contrast, I did some math on using bottled nutrients using the manufacturer recs for Sensi A & B for the hypothetical warehouse. Each component is added at 6 ml/L, or 1.14 L of each/50 gallons. The lowest bulk price I could find worked out to $7/L, or $16 total/feeding. In addition to the 2-part, Advanced Nutrients recommends the following for the professional/warehouse environment:
- Sensizym at 2 ml/L, or .38 L/feeding for 9 weeks at $35/L, or $13.30/feeding
- Nirvana at 2 ml/L, or .38 L/feeding for 4 weeks at $23/L, or $8.74/feeding
- Tarantula at .6 g/L, or 114 g/feeding for 2 weeks at $0.45/g, or $51.30/feeding

By my calculations, to take 12 lights (consuming 100 gallons/week) through a 10 week flower cycle would cost > $540 total for all feedings
[$288 for Sensi A & B; $119 for Sensizym; $35 for Nirvana; $100 for Tarantula]

So, with all this calculated, I put the cost of going organic living soil at ~37% of bottle feeding. Realistically, I would estimate that in an absolutely most terrible worst case, yields would be at least 50% of the bottled nute program, making the organic route unquestionably more efficient.

 

[chief bigsmoke]

Does anyone have a good recipe for yarrow?

much appreciated

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

Does anyone have a good recipe for yarrow?

much appreciated

I've been doing 1 cup dried leaves/5 gallons h20 for 48-72 hours to good effect so far!

 

[shmalphy]

great points but i think your shooting low sam imho

properly executed organics rival or are superior to hydroponics in every aspect except in time from start to maturation, being the true differential in hydroponics is speed

other considerations are in the microbiology

not the microbiology that simply feeds the plant

microbiology does so much more

plant health and immunity and drought resistance for instance

far more to the biology than that but the plant has adapted to dealing with its environment, in part through its relationship with the living soil through the rhizosphere

i think that is a huge consideration when measuring pros and cons versus hydro

Plant immune responses triggered by beneficial microbes

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369526608001003

Rhizosphere bacteria help plants tolerate abiotic stress

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1360138508002902

Rhizosphere bacteria help plants tolerate abiotic stress

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1360138508002902

So true, it is impossible to quantify preventative measures in general, because you never know how many "cal mag deficiencies" and Bug Of The Month attacks you aren't throwing dollars, hours, blood, sweat, and tears at that you would have been using an "inert medium" with toxic "nutes".

 

[ClackamasCootz]

IB

Did you grow Yarrow this year or are you harvesting native plants?

The Yarrow hybrid plants at the nurseries are really amazing in the variety of color combinations. I have one that has deep magenta flowers will bright yellow centers. As the flower matures the magenta color changes to an ochre color and at that point the aroma levels seem to be at their highest. Almost moist from the pollinator compounds.

CC

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

IB

Did you grow Yarrow this year or are you harvesting native plants?

The Yarrow hybrid plants at the nurseries are really amazing in the variety of color combinations. I have one that has deep magenta flowers will bright yellow centers. As the flower matures the magenta color changes to an ochre color and at that point the aroma levels seem to be at their highest. Almost moist from the pollinator compounds.

CC

I harvest some 'wild' from a municipal flower bed near my house - the majority of it is dried leaf & flowerfrom Mountain Rose though

 

[shmalphy]

A friend who knows less than nothing about growing anything asked for some advice on what to feed his plants. I told him to get Pro Mix, mix in Coast of Maine Lobster Compost and stone dust, and water with Neptune's Harvest Fish and Seaweed as per directions on the label the whole way through, and recycle it. That is what I would do if I had to start from scratch and needed to source something reliable. Once he gets rolling, I will have him brewing teas, and making compost, but he is not ready for that yet lol.

By my estimation this "recipe" should blow anything from the hydro store right out of the water.

 

[Weird]

coast of maine makes great shit

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Weird

Have you used any of their potting soil mixes vs. their compost products?

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

BuffaLoam - out of Colorado and available in the midwest. Certified organic - potting soil & compost

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

BuffaLoam - out of Colorado and available in the midwest. Certified organic - potting soil & compost

They do bagged compost, compost tea mix (bagged compost + alfalfa), and potting soil - kinda pricey, but VERY rich looking and smelling (with a faint whiff of ammonia). CO folks: I found mine at Vitamin Cottage (the natural grocers).

I wasn't a huge fan of how the tea smelled, but I've been mixing it in with the botanicals I feed my worms

 

[shmalphy]

coast of maine makes great shit

They do... I told him to either go with the straight potting mix or use the compost in pro-mix.

Have you tried Neptune's Harvest? They are on the same level of quality, the parent company is Ocean Crest Seafoods, so all of their materials are leftovers from seafood production. I have seen a few threads about people using the fish/seaweed as their only fertilizer, and I have used it myself, until I started making my own fish hydrolysate and seaweed fpe. It works GREAT as a foliar.

 

[greenmatter]

some of the "big dawgs" in the thread don't like GH's ancient forrest.

is this because the stuff is just plain garbage or is it because there are much better products out there? the good stuff costs 4-5X what the GH product costs in my area and $$$ always throws a wrench in the garden gears. i was thinking about using the Gh stuff in the mix and buying a bag of the good stuff for teas. i know it's not optimal, but i have to work with what i can A)get and B) afford.

"the rectangle" is a really shitty place to find good organic amendments without a really thick wallet IMHO ........ at least now i know to look for buffaloam in the health food store thanks to incredibowlboss. vitamin cottage is where i get a bunch of the stuff i eat, but looking for compost in there never crossed my mind

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

some of the "big dawgs" in the thread don't like GH's ancient forrest.

is this because the stuff is just plain garbage or is it because there are much better products out there? the good stuff costs 4-5X what the GH product costs in my area and $$$ always throws a wrench in the garden gears. i was thinking about using the Gh stuff in the mix and buying a bag of the good stuff for teas. i know it's not optimal, but i have to work with what i can A)get and B) afford.

"the rectangle" is a really shitty place to find good organic amendments without a really thick wallet IMHO ........ at least now i know to look for buffaloam in the health food store thanks to incredibowlboss. vitamin cottage is where i get a bunch of the stuff i eat, but looking for compost in there never crossed my mind

As I recall its just Alaska magic, Denali, GO (whatever) and its just peat moss and some volcanic rock dust. With the price jacked......

Could be wrong..... I smoke dope

GS