Living organic soil from start through recycling

[Gascanastan]

I bought a case over a year ago. There are two types...1 type comes with a 'hormone' for rooting the other is 'hormone' free. The hormone free type claim to be organic,and the best I can figure is they are made of a peat powder and some kind of cellulose??...

They powder if smashed and break down fairly quickly...

Rooting is always 100%....the way they hold tight around the cutting as you insert it into the cube prevents destructive insects from reaching the developing roots...as well as transferring moisture at a constant rate to all parts of the inserted cutting. Rooting is usually accomplished in 7 to 10 days if your conditions are dialed in.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Okay - thanks!

 

[YosemiteSam]

Equal parts of Sphagnum peat moss, some aeration deal (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock - whatever is sitting in the garage) and finally some mix of humus - my compost, worm castings some black leaf mold I bought from the local 'worm guy'

To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:

1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal (or Crustacean meal when available - it has Shrimp meal with the Crab meal. It's a local product from the fisheries on the Oregon & Washington Coasts)

4 cups of some minerals - rock dust

After the plant is in the final container I top-dress with my worm castings at 2" or so and then I hit it with Aloe vera juice and Comfrey extract. Or Borage. Or Stinging Nettle. Or Horsetail ferns. Whatever is ready.

That's it.

To recycle I've just been letting the root ball breakdown and I remove it. I dump the potting soil into an extra large SmartPot container (50 gallons) and add some new potting soil mix as above. I water it down with Kelp meal and Comfrey tea and let it sit until I need it.

Ain't rocket science......

CC

I really want to try this but I am one lazy stoner. Would someone be kind enough to a) tell me if hit it means fertigate or foliar and b) point me toward how to make aloe juice and the extracts

pretty please

 

[rrog]

What should we watch out for when irrigating with hard well water?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I really want to try this but I am one lazy stoner. Would someone be kind enough to a) tell me if hit it means fertigate or foliar and b) point me toward how to make aloe juice and the extracts

pretty please

YS

Instead of using straight water, I apply a botanical tea correctly diluted which is dependent on a number of factors with the main one being the water : plant ratio when I started.

If you have the luxury of growing Aloe vera plants then head over to YouTube and there is a plethora of videos showing how to work with Aloe vera fillets as they're called.

The only warning that I want to give you on doing your own thing is that Aloe vera contains high levels of Benzoic acid which begins to ferment in less than 20 minutes once it's exposed to air. Commercial Aloe vera juice is treated with salt which converts this acid to Sodium Benzoate which most of consume at each and every meal - unfortunately.

The organic, non-preservative versions of Aloe vera will use one or a combination of the following: Citric or Ascorbic acid so if you know anything about arresting fermenting with these acids then you could make a quantity and keep it in the refrigerator.

If not then only extract what you need at that moment.

For folks who live in areas that have a large Hispanic community, Aloe vera fillets are available often in the supermarkets and speciality stores and they even have a UPC sticker on them.

Fresh is best. Freeze dried powder is next. Spray dried powder is next. Anything sold as a liquid and particularly at the retail level then you need to read the labels closely.

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

What should we watch out for when irrigating with hard well water?

I went to confirm this factoid, the PNW is in the small number of areas in the US which does not deal with hard water, i.e. no direct knowledge or experience.

This is a question - The elements with the highest levels in hard water are Calcium, Magnesium and Manganese?

CC

 

[DARC MIND]

we have hard tap water,YS briefly explained about having the right amount of Ca and what happens when you dont have enough...
well too much causes lock outs and soils tend to dry out alot faster plus harder to fullly moisten...water flows right off the top and down the sides of container...
its all about balance
The levels of one nutrient impact the nutrient’s availability of another.So by adding too much of one nutrient, you are almost certain to reduce the availability of one or more other nutrients.

http://www.jseco.co.uk/services/facts-advice-service

 

[SeaMaiden]

DARC, you can have a shit-ton of Ca dissolved in the water column, but if it's bonded with that CO3 (carbonate) molecule, good luck getting that bond broken before it forces pH upward.

I went to confirm this factoid, the PNW is in the small number of areas in the US which does not deal with hard water, i.e. no direct knowledge or experience.

This is a question - The elements with the highest levels in hard water are Calcium, Magnesium and Manganese?

CC

I can speak to water. In California, depending on who the municipality is getting their water from (not all SoCal water comes from the aquaduct or the Colorado! there is a MASSIVE well in La Mirada owned by the city of La Habra Heights, it is HUGE, it is CLEAN, and it is HARD water). In the municipality that I'm familiar with the water comes from a huge 'lens' (well) that sits under a gigantic slab of limestone. That means that it's already very hard, high in CaCO3 and MgCO3 (calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate respectively), but may also be high in CaMgCO3 (calcium magnesium carbonate, aka dolomite lime), and actually very clean. In fact, the only reason why the city of La Habra Hts treats their water is because the EPA requires it.

Water coming from the aquaduct (mostly Sierra rainfall) or the Colorado typically must be treated beforehand, and that usually includes adding products that will raise alkalinity and pH so as to preserve pipelines.

Hardness types vary. There is temporary hardness, which can be reduced by BOILING the water for 7-10 minutes. I've reduced the general and carbonate hardness of my well water by almost 50% simply by boiling. Permanent hardness cannot be reduced by boiling. What I don't know/understand very well is the chemistry behind this action.

That leads me to the mention of the two main types of hardness most people are interested in.

General hardness describes the total metals or minerals in solution in the water column, they can be anything from iron to sulfur to CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) to MgCO3 (magnesium carbonate) the the non-carbonated (hehheh) forms of Ca and Mg, Na, Fe, Cu, whatever.

Carbonate hardness, aka German hardness, is specific to carbonates; i.e. those substances that will keep the water alkalinity (resistance to pH shift) high.

If you're on a well you'll have to ask your county who does the testing, or for a well report from when the well was drilled and the property has changed hands. Or, you can perform some of your own testing with simple and relatively inexpensive aquarium test kits. I use Tetra Laborette, it's about $25 give or take. I don't use the saltwater test kits and I wish they included a test for NO2 (nitrITE), not just NO3 (nitrATE). However, using the pH and hardness kits you can do some simple math and calculate the dissolved CO2 in the water column as well. This is important for reefkeepers and those keeping freshwater planted tanks, as it affects pH, possibly nutrient levels and mineral and nutrient uptake.

If I can't do portable I may as well do potable.

 

[YosemiteSam]

YS

Instead of using straight water, I apply a botanical tea correctly diluted which is dependent on a number of factors with the main one being waterlant ratio when I started.

CC

Is there a waterlant ratio guideline? Can you literally burn a plant with aloe or comfrey teas?

I have fresh aloe available...will have to purchase other stuff but can start growing it no problem

And how is this mix for veggies? I got a couple of raised beds I would love to tear out this winter. I made the mistake of using CO ditch water on them and god only knows what runoff is in that shit

 

[DARC MIND]

DARC, you can have a shit-ton of Ca dissolved in the water column, but if it's bonded with that CO3 (carbonate) molecule, good luck getting that bond broken before it forces pH upward.

when hard water is used for irrigation, it’s like one is adding a small amount of lime every time you water. Over time, this continual addition of lime will cause unbalances in the growing medium from my experiance..specially with high compost,casting & cal carbonated amended mixes...


This swing is more pronounced in containers because they are watered frequently causing young leaves to turn pale and yellow...VG had a thread on something similar

 

[SeaMaiden]

Exactly!

 

[rrog]

Here's what I have compiled so far:

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (2 parts Perlite, 2 parts chunky coco, 1 part Vermiculite)
1/3 Humus (1 part EWC, 1 part local / used topsoil, 1 part leaf litter, 1 part compost)

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

½ Cup DE
½ Cup Espoma Starter Plus
1 cup Charcoal
½ Cup Epsom Salt
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

½ Cup Neem Meal
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

1.5 Cups Montmorillonite clay
1.5 Cups Pyrophyllite Clay

Moisten with Fresh Aloe (2 Tbs Juice with 1 gallon water) and Accelerant Tea (Comfrey, Yarrow, Horsetail or Nettle)

I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes. Let rest for 4 weeks.

My concern is the buildup of Ca+. I use Blumat drippers with well water. I can use RO to wash in top dressings, as well as use RO for teas. I'm thinking I should cut back on the initial long term (slow release) Calcium sources like Oyster shell.

 

[supermanlives]

my tap is like 235.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Is there a waterlant ratio guideline? Can you literally burn a plant with aloe or comfrey teas?

I have fresh aloe available...will have to purchase other stuff but can start growing it no problem

And how is this mix for veggies? I got a couple of raised beds I would love to tear out this winter. I made the mistake of using CO ditch water on them and god only knows what runoff is in that shit

YosemiteSam

On the Comfrey, Borage, Nettle, Dandelion 'teas' how you get to the concentrate doesn't really matter - it's the 'color' of the tea when you apply it. There is no official method on getting the plant material broken down.

Some people make a syrup where only plant material goes into the tank and it renders out a pretty thick syrup. Other methods use water and the amount is all over the place - do whatever works best for your situation.

When it comes time to apply then there is a fairly general consensus - dilute the 'tea' so that it's about the color of what people call 'sun tea' - light amber.

And to your other question, 99.5% of the Comfrey that I process never sees a cannabis plant - it all goes on the beds as green mulch at the beginning the season to get the beds up and running. Lay the leaves on top of the soil and top-dress with some good compost and in about a week you're ready to plant your seedlings. Comfrey has 2x the levels of Potassium than Kelp meal before you even begin to review the other 82 elements it accumulates.

I pour diluted teas on the beds every so often - pretty scientific, eh? LOL

Aloe vera - if you're going to use fresh fillets (best method, IMHO) then you only want to add about 2 tablespoons to 1 gallon of water - that's an uber safe mixing ratio. I use 2x that amount but I'm using the pharmaceutical food grade powders from Australia which as good as they are, fresh is best. You're gold having fresh available.....

HTH

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

½ Cup Neem Meal
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

rrog

Given the issues with your well water and taking into consideration that Sul-Po-Mag is water soluble, perhaps pulling this one and then making a tea later and apply that if you need it (1 tablespoon to 1 gallon of water).

But I want to repeat - I have no working experience with the water conditions that you're facing. Oregon gardeners got blessed with some other really kewl shit though - 3 different strains of Spider Mites and over 360 versions of Powdery Mildew so we keep pretty busy all in all.

HTH

CC

 

[rrog]

Thanks Coot. I wonder, then, about the Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate), as it's immediately available also.

My fear assumes that the Ca+ and Mg+ in my water is available for the plant / microbes and not locked in some very stable (less available) form.

SeaMaiden, You would suggest having the water tested or test it myself, to determine the type of Ca+ and Mg+ I have? If they are carbonates, does your instinct tell you they are locked up as potential Cations and I wouldn't have to be as concerned?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Thanks Coot...ima hit my outdoor plants with a little aloe this wk.

And as soon as I can get all of the stuff this is definitely gonna get a try. My compost/wc sources are probably gonna be a little lacking so I will also start that up this fall for myself.

btw...agsil 16 at 2 grams per gallon sprayed will prevent PM...at least here and in SF. My buddy sprayed a tomato plant in SF...only plant on the block that did not get PM. I use it once a month or so.

and, scientific or not, I do get the every once in a while thing...a guy eventually has to be able to look at plants and tell for himself

 

[ClackamasCootz]

YS

Agsil 16 (Potassium Silicate) is always added to every watering and foliar spray. I've done my homework about liquid Silica in particular in the horticulture paradigm.

I also use this compound to emulsify the Neem & Karanja oils which in and of themselves are powerful fungicide and pesticides.

Certain plant leaves and flowers also contain both of these benefits and making a 'tea' from Peppermint (for example) and using that in place of the 'water' when mixing the oils brings double and triple the efficiencies.

I've been 'PM Free' for over 3 years now and in Oregon that's quite an accomplishment.

BTW - if you were to buy the Comfrey root starts soon and get them established before winter weather hits, you'll be in really good shape for next spring. I only had 4 comfrey plants this season and I'm sitting on massive amounts of Comfrey concentrated extracts - not quite syrup but pretty close.

Then this spring I accidentally discovered something and ended up with 20+ 'volunteer plants' which I got out of the ground quickly and planted them in a more appropriate area of the home.

You cannot kill Comfrey - the roots go down 15' or more into the sub-soil and that's how it accumulates the elements as efficiently as it does. Planting Comfrey between the rows of trees in fruit orchards is a common practice in England and Germany. The leaves are removed and used as green mulch and the surrounding soils are improved from the accumulation of elements (NPK).

15' feet is deeper than most fruit trees to give you a comparison - once it's planted and established they own that piece of earth. It's estimated that the plant will live over 35 years.

Pretty cheap 'nute program' - LOL

CC

 

[Neo 420]

I have to say that CC's suggestion of neem and silicone foilar sprays is the bomb. I do have a question regrading the aloe. Luckily I have direct access to a plethora of fresh aloe vera plants. I have been picking the aloe, chop and blend (add in a lil neem) then strain and dilute. Seems to have been some of the best pm control methods I have ever seen. Would it be more benificial to use the pure aloe in the plant or continue with my current blend and straining ? My local nursey does not have nettles but they do have comfrey. Will be planting by weeks end.

The only bottles I use now for gardening is seaweed and dynagro silicone. Organics is the shit! (sometimes literally)

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Would it be more benificial to use the pure aloe in the plant or continue with my current blend and straining?

The only bottles I use now for gardening is seaweed and dynagro silicone. Organics is the shit! (sometimes literally)

Neo 420

If your garden is running like you want I wouldn't change anything - no need to court disaster as the expression goes.

On your last 2 bottled products - perhaps you can take those off of your list.

Yosemite Sam mentioned a product called AgSil 16H which is a brand name for Potassium Silicate. This is a mined mineral compound and it's molecular formula is K2O3Si and it's the Si (Silica) that is water soluble. This is the exact same compound used in the Dyna Gro Pro-TeKt product (and others like Silica Blast, Rhino Skin, etc. - no mystery at all)

The link is to Custom Hydro Nutrients and they sell the base compounds for those who mix their own hydroponic nutrients. Their price for a single pound is only $12.00 and .70 grams to 1 gallon of water will give you an uber safe application mix ratio.

Potassium Silicate is 'approved for organic food production' because mined minerals cannot be 'organic' or 'non-organic' - they can be 'approved' or 'not approved' or have 'limited application approval'

So there's one bottle down and it's on to liquid 'seaweed' and other weird claims.

I know of only 3 true liquid kelp products from around the world:

KELPAK - located in South Africa and they do have a very unique product because the 'juice' in the kelp fronds is pressed out by machines and it does not use powerful Alkaloids like the powdered products (Maxicrop, et al.). This product is usually available in 5 gallon jugs and is priced around $40.00 per gallon. This is a favorite with hydroponic bottlers because it's crystal clear just like water meaning that it won't interfere with their color schemeatic.

KelpGrow - located in British Columbia and they grind the kelp into a slurry (specific particle size) and they they use what they call 'microbial inhibitors' to extend its shelf life. I didn't bother looking at what that might mean - could be anything from Phosphoric acid to Citric acid.

Powdered Seaweed Extracts - this is main one found in most garden products. Maxicrop is a big player. The kelp is processed with chemicals (Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide) which renders this plant material into a black powder - powdered seaweed extract. Notice that these products are never identified as 'powdered kelp extracts' and that has to do with an international treaty dating back to 1950 when Stephenson first introduced this new concept to the world. Kelp is kelp. Seaweed extract is seaweed extract.

Maxicrop mixes the powder with water and usually adds some Soluble Potash to bump up the 'K' numbers for the ill-informed.

Any of the retail 'liquid seaweed' products are powders and if the largest manufacturer (Maxicrop) tosses out some real crap can you imagine what is coming out of Asia? South America?

You want to find Kelp meal because this is like Alfalfa meal in this regard - it's minimally processed. The kelp fronds are layed out in the sun and basically dried and cured. Then it's cut, sized and bagged. Very little (tiny amounts) of kelp meal ever hits the dirt compared to the amount used in livestock supplements, HABA products, research in medicine.

Kelp meal is easily sourced at places that cater to horse owners - feed stores or sometimes called farm stores. Almost all of the kelp meal in North America comes out of Nova Scotia (Acadian Seaplants, Ltd.) in 50 lb. bags. The price should run between $75.00 - $90.00 (depending on how hard you're getting stabbed).

But consider this - 2 oz. will turn 5 gallons of water into kelp meal tea with all of the 'things' you want (Alginic acid, Mannitol, IAA, IBA, etc.) plus when you're done brewing the tea, the 2 oz. of rehydrated kelp still retains about 50% of the 'things' you wanted in the first place.

You can add this to a new batch of soil, toss it into a worm bin, top-dress plants in your outdoor garden.

So now you're down nothing from a bottle.

CC