IncredibowlBoss
Member
CC - can you break down the benefits and typical usage of Aloe Vera? I did some googling, read some vague claims about B vitamins and polysaccharides, but nothing in detail.
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Living organic soil from start through recycling
- Thread starter Gascanastan
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CC - can you break down the benefits and typical usage of Aloe Vera? I did some googling, read some vague claims about B vitamins and polysaccharides, but nothing in detail.
You can take the ballast and hold it as tightly against your body as possible and it isn't even uncomfortable, i.e. no heat issues at all.
This was the first company to develop a true horticulture light about 36 years in conjunction with the engineering from Hortilux Schreder.
I've got some units that are over 25 years old. About every 7 years or so you have to replace the ignitor or something like that. I bought a box of them way back when.
"Industrial Strength"
GC & Scrappy
I'm waiting for an email from the production manager at Sun Gro down in Hubbard for clarification on how they process their Grade 1 Sphagnum peat moss at that facility.
CC
I'm waiting for an email from the production manager at Sun Gro down in Hubbard for clarification on how they process their Grade 1 Sphagnum peat moss at that facility.
CC
I'm going to get a coffee and breakfast burrito with homemade chorizo man.....
..on the lighting system...perused the website...impressive. Equally impressive to hear it doesn't get that hot.
IncredibowlBoss
The information on polysaccharides is easily available but let me know.
Aloe vera is a nutrient accumulator like Alfalfa, Kelp, Comfrey, etc. meaning that you get the full panorama of Elements needed by a plant.
What separates any plant material from another are the Secondary Metabolites that they contain. IOW, if you only wanted Elements then it really wouldn't matter which of the accumulators you used. Sure - some plants will have a higher profile on this or that but across the board Alfalfa meal could be used in lieu of kelp meal were it not for their specific compounds.
Alfalfa = Triacontanol or Kelp meal = Alginic acid and the other plants will have their own specific compounds that they manufacture.
In the case of Aloe vera you have two compounds that are important - Saponins and Salicylic acid. You've probably seen references to using Willow shoots to extract a so-called rooting compound - well this is the same one that you can use without climbing trees or whatever.
Saponins are usually promoted as a surfactant or wetting agent which is true. But their role is far more complex as it relates to triggering a plant's innate defense systems - System Acquired Resistance (SAR) and Hormonal Acquired Resistance (HAR).
Saponins in the soil, per se, provide a number of other benefits that you can read about. The problem with trying to do research on the Aloe vera plant in the USA is that the links at Google are loaded with blogs, forum posts and manufacturer's blab sheets. Pretty daunting trying to dig through it.
You'll do much better at the Australian web sites. Australia is the 3rd largest producer of Aloe vera extracts - liquid, spray-dried and freeze dried versions. China & Mexico are bigger than Australia.
Besides these 2 specific compounds (of about 450), there are the enzymes and here you can go back to the Google sites, get the specific enzymes Aloe vera contains and then look over at Google Scholar, SCIRUS, JSTOR or another science-based search engines and figure out how it applies to Botany and soil biology.
But Saponins and Salicylic acid would the main selling points from a sales rep perspective.
HTH
CC
Coot
Is the sunshine a Sungro product?
As you know I recently ran an updated test to reassure myself and Premier outdid Sunshine with ease. I got my buddy to have a look at the bags and there is nothing about where they were packaged nor harvested. It just has their HQ adresses Premier = Quebec and Sunshine = Alberta. Both produced in Canada of course. As I think you know I found out that Premier, Promoss line is harvested in northern Alberta and I believe you established that so is Alaska Peat. Hypothetically this puts them in similar geographic/topgraphic territory to so-called 'Alaskan Humus'
Other areas of harvest include mid-level Manitoba, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime provinces.
Here is a site which 'sort of' tells you where each company is harvesting.
http://www.peatmoss.com/pm-membs.php
Based on the testing we fed most of the Sunshine to the worms and are using the Premier in our soil mixes. It is too bad because the Premier is around $9 per bag. Premier sales rep has recently cited me to back up their mycorrhizal product so I'm hoping to convince them to give me a deal.
BTW we include no lime at all in our mixes presently, just local crushed rock/sand and sometimes local clay powders (bentonite & pyrophylitte). I've been virtually unconcerned with pH for years now. When we did use dolomite it was for the mineral content rather than pH control. I'm of the mind that it is the ratios of calcium, magnesium and phosphorous which is what is important [as it is in human & animal nutrition]. I'm hoping that the provision of organic matter, composted matter and some ACT will be enough to provide the roots the environment necessary to derive nutrients.
I hope this is not too off track but can anyone give me the skinny on using diatomaceous earth (DE) in a soil mix. I can get it very cheaply by the ton. It is 67% DE and 33% montmorillonite [basically bentonite]. I wonder about the potential harm to beneficial organisms. Anybody?
Is the sunshine a Sungro product?
As you know I recently ran an updated test to reassure myself and Premier outdid Sunshine with ease. I got my buddy to have a look at the bags and there is nothing about where they were packaged nor harvested. It just has their HQ adresses Premier = Quebec and Sunshine = Alberta. Both produced in Canada of course. As I think you know I found out that Premier, Promoss line is harvested in northern Alberta and I believe you established that so is Alaska Peat. Hypothetically this puts them in similar geographic/topgraphic territory to so-called 'Alaskan Humus'
Other areas of harvest include mid-level Manitoba, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime provinces.
Here is a site which 'sort of' tells you where each company is harvesting.
http://www.peatmoss.com/pm-membs.php
Based on the testing we fed most of the Sunshine to the worms and are using the Premier in our soil mixes. It is too bad because the Premier is around $9 per bag. Premier sales rep has recently cited me to back up their mycorrhizal product so I'm hoping to convince them to give me a deal.
BTW we include no lime at all in our mixes presently, just local crushed rock/sand and sometimes local clay powders (bentonite & pyrophylitte). I've been virtually unconcerned with pH for years now. When we did use dolomite it was for the mineral content rather than pH control. I'm of the mind that it is the ratios of calcium, magnesium and phosphorous which is what is important [as it is in human & animal nutrition]. I'm hoping that the provision of organic matter, composted matter and some ACT will be enough to provide the roots the environment necessary to derive nutrients.
I hope this is not too off track but can anyone give me the skinny on using diatomaceous earth (DE) in a soil mix. I can get it very cheaply by the ton. It is 67% DE and 33% montmorillonite [basically bentonite]. I wonder about the potential harm to beneficial organisms. Anybody?
I used powdered DE in my soil mix on one re-amend over a year ago...roughly 2lbs. .....no ill effects noted.
G
greenmatter
In the case of Aloe vera you have two compounds that are important - Saponins and Salicylic acid. You've probably seen references to using Willow shoots to extract a so-called rooting compound - well this is the same one that you can use without climbing trees or whatever.
does that apply to everything in the willow family CC ? we have tons of the stuff growing everyplace there is water here. is the good stuff contained in the leaves or the woody parts of the plant? is willow a good candidate for an FPE?
does that apply to everything in the willow family CC ? we have tons of the stuff growing everyplace there is water here. is the good stuff contained in the leaves or the woody parts of the plant? is willow a good candidate for an FPE?
MM
Sun Gro Horticulture = Sunshine Mix(es), several straight Sphagnum peat products, Nature's which is a straight Sphagnum peat moss pack, Black Gold (retail product line) and another retail product called Nature's (horrible)
I should have some information for you to consider in a couple of hours - Sun Gro does NOT pack their premium Sphagnum peat moss in Oregon like their other products.
Premier Peat & Alaska Peat are packed in Canada and arrives here in 3.8 bales and 2.8 'pony bales' as Alaska Peat calls this pack size.
I don't want to misspeak about the actual mixing processes in Oregon on the Sunshine Mixes - but I believe that somewhere along the line the material is degraded. You'd have to see the size of the auger mixers that are used. 8 minutes is all that is required to mix an entire trailer full of bagged potting soil mixes - 8 minutes.
The actual mixing cycle is brutal - cone-shapped cylinders are on top of the mixing chamber and the CAM system drops this or that down as prescribed for a specific recipe. Covers are automatically dropped over the mixing chamber and then it's ramped up to full speed and material is flying around like crazy.
Straight Sphagnum peat moss is handled far differently. The material is off-loaded and placed in a separate mixing machine (much smaller) and it's only turned 3 or 4 times before the peat moss is pushed to the bagging/packaging machines.
I'm wondering if there isn't something happening in the speed mixing process - just an idea.
CC
Sun Gro Horticulture = Sunshine Mix(es), several straight Sphagnum peat products, Nature's which is a straight Sphagnum peat moss pack, Black Gold (retail product line) and another retail product called Nature's (horrible)
I should have some information for you to consider in a couple of hours - Sun Gro does NOT pack their premium Sphagnum peat moss in Oregon like their other products.
Premier Peat & Alaska Peat are packed in Canada and arrives here in 3.8 bales and 2.8 'pony bales' as Alaska Peat calls this pack size.
I don't want to misspeak about the actual mixing processes in Oregon on the Sunshine Mixes - but I believe that somewhere along the line the material is degraded. You'd have to see the size of the auger mixers that are used. 8 minutes is all that is required to mix an entire trailer full of bagged potting soil mixes - 8 minutes.
The actual mixing cycle is brutal - cone-shapped cylinders are on top of the mixing chamber and the CAM system drops this or that down as prescribed for a specific recipe. Covers are automatically dropped over the mixing chamber and then it's ramped up to full speed and material is flying around like crazy.
Straight Sphagnum peat moss is handled far differently. The material is off-loaded and placed in a separate mixing machine (much smaller) and it's only turned 3 or 4 times before the peat moss is pushed to the bagging/packaging machines.
I'm wondering if there isn't something happening in the speed mixing process - just an idea.
CC
I've often posted in some places that I would believe that type of mixing makes for an inconsistent and somewhat questionable product.
How could that be considered mixed and ready for a three gallon pot?
How would any 'planting medium' be thoroughly mixed ripping through that fast and at that volume?
Besides the Alaskan peat I'm much better off gathering leaf litter and incorporating that into my soil mix.
Some kids might ask,"why do you put leaf 'litter' in your soil mix dude?"
How could that be considered mixed and ready for a three gallon pot?
How would any 'planting medium' be thoroughly mixed ripping through that fast and at that volume?
Besides the Alaskan peat I'm much better off gathering leaf litter and incorporating that into my soil mix.
Some kids might ask,"why do you put leaf 'litter' in your soil mix dude?"
Could you give some application or extraction methods using aloe Vera?
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Some old fart taught me to make a foliar spray with aloe juice @ 2 tablespoons per gallon of water once.....
You can go to the Mexican grocery store and buy aloe leaves. Simply crush the leaves and collect the juice.
I sprayed up to 3 times a day before determining that 1 application every 3 days in veg was enough for me....and the plants.
What I noticed within 3 or less hours after an application was that the leaves on most types pointed upwards...not in a lockout or 'clawing' type of way,but more in the way of positive vegetative growth....just my observation.
......here's roughly 30 types that received the aloe treatment.
You can go to the Mexican grocery store and buy aloe leaves. Simply crush the leaves and collect the juice.
I sprayed up to 3 times a day before determining that 1 application every 3 days in veg was enough for me....and the plants.
What I noticed within 3 or less hours after an application was that the leaves on most types pointed upwards...not in a lockout or 'clawing' type of way,but more in the way of positive vegetative growth....just my observation.
......here's roughly 30 types that received the aloe treatment.
Neo 420
YouTube has quite a number of videos on extracting the 'gel' or 'juice' and probably a few other terms. Pretty straight forward......
What do you use for rooting a cutting, i.e. the strata?
YouTube has quite a number of videos on extracting the 'gel' or 'juice' and probably a few other terms. Pretty straight forward......
What do you use for rooting a cutting, i.e. the strata?
Y
YosemiteSam
I would like to take a shot at this one...please be gentle. Ca++ "floculates" clay particles...that is it combines them into bigger masses of particles which opens up the soil allowing for more oxygen in the soil.
Somewhere around 65% base cation saturation of Ca and 15% Mg seems to make for the best combo (Albrecht ratios). Start going above that one on Mg or below it on Ca and the structure collapses reducing oxygen and putting pressure on the microbes along with other lack of oxygen problems
Because most dolomite is around a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio it presents a problem. Depending on the cec of the soil anywhere from a 3:1 to 7:1 ratio is more ideal
At least that is my understanding...I have been wrong before.
YS
i think what cc is trying to get at is that Ca is pretty common in all organic matter..it be plant based or mineral;so adding DL to a compost/casting & amended soil isnt really liming anything as its now alive with microbes who also play an import role in CEC,PH,nutrient availability & nutrient balaning..were it counts
the old humates and compost buffering effect & since mg is in such small amount in DL;it kind of makes it pointless compared to the other very diverse mineral rich rock powders one can use...
i think the DL trend came with the soilless peat based mixes & bottle "NPK" approach of feeding the plant
i think what cc is trying to get at is that Ca is pretty common in all organic matter..it be plant based or mineral;so adding DL to a compost/casting & amended soil isnt really liming anything as its now alive with microbes who also play an import role in CEC,PH,nutrient availability & nutrient balaning..were it counts
the old humates and compost buffering effect & since mg is in such small amount in DL;it kind of makes it pointless compared to the other very diverse mineral rich rock powders one can use...
i think the DL trend came with the soilless peat based mixes & bottle "NPK" approach of feeding the plant
A note on the recycling of the base medium...
After the plants have completed the cycle (and assuming the grower has cut the plant at the base leaving the stump and root ball in the pot) ...the pots are dumped on a large tarp with the rootballs and stumps intact and they are allowed to go through into the next mixing along with the dried amendments that will be re-introduced to the 'used' medium.
They are mixed right in along with everything else...and it is at this point in which I introduce other materials such as leaf litter,comfrey,horsetail,etc. as well as more kelp meal,fish bone meal,crab shell meal,neem seed meal,and regular fish meal...oatmeal,etc.
I find that the stumps and roots fully break down by the end of the second cycle...this is food for microbial life and fungi.
On the second round I add less of the original portions of dried commercially available amendments based upon the volume of the soil and what deficiencies the plants may have indicated during the initial cycle. The one thing that continually gets put back in in near the original quantity is kelp meal.
After the plants have completed the cycle (and assuming the grower has cut the plant at the base leaving the stump and root ball in the pot) ...the pots are dumped on a large tarp with the rootballs and stumps intact and they are allowed to go through into the next mixing along with the dried amendments that will be re-introduced to the 'used' medium.
They are mixed right in along with everything else...and it is at this point in which I introduce other materials such as leaf litter,comfrey,horsetail,etc. as well as more kelp meal,fish bone meal,crab shell meal,neem seed meal,and regular fish meal...oatmeal,etc.
I find that the stumps and roots fully break down by the end of the second cycle...this is food for microbial life and fungi.
On the second round I add less of the original portions of dried commercially available amendments based upon the volume of the soil and what deficiencies the plants may have indicated during the initial cycle. The one thing that continually gets put back in in near the original quantity is kelp meal.
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S
SeaMaiden
Just as I learned with fish. Every time I didn't use my observations of the organisms in question and headed straight for a number, I ended up causing problems. Shifting pH is one of the quickest ways to kill of an entire system, tank-ful of fish, too.
In other words, if it ain't broke..! I mean, how'd we humans eat for all these years before we knew a thing about hydrogen ions and pH? Doesn't mean I don't love the science and the knowing, just makes me wonder.
Did you know that one of the best ways to soften and acidify an alkaline, high-pH water column for fishes and invertebrates is to filter through peat moss? One of my oldest and best tricks/tips for those who wish to keep the more delicate Rio Negro and Amazon basin animals that have been wild-caught.
I've been warned NOT to use my oyster shell flour for possibly causing problems by using too much. Since I've yet to bite the bullet and get a proper soil test, and so don't know what I'm working with, I've been trying to simply work on building organic matter within the clay matrix. This is specific to my outdoor cultivation, I am nowhere near getting my indoor rooms going.
Well..... I did it using the pool grade DE, because I made the mistake of thinking they were the same thing (insect Tx grade vs pool filtration) several years ago. So I had this 50lb box of DE, and what I've been doing is just throwing in a few handfuls wherever I can, mostly just to get rid of it. Considering the macrobial fauna activity levels, I don't think I've harmed my microbial flora or fauna.
HTH a little bit.
5 gallon pots that were emptied after a no-till run....now going straight into re-amending with kelp,fish bone meal,and fish meal...that's it.
Y
YosemiteSam
I totally agree that if there is enough Ca in your organic inputs then you don't need to add any more at all...doing so would be counterproductive. And those organic inputs probably have very close to the right Ca:Mg ratio anyways.
I still like to take samples though to see where I am...the old corporate guy in me demands metrics...useful or not
Be aware that there is an alternative way to reuse soil. We did almost exactly as Gascan did for several years when using 5 gallon pails for growing.
When we switched to an indoor facsimile of our outdoor beds we used stacked bins and left the soil fully intact, treating it with liquid amendments and teams of composting worms between planting.
This allowed fungal networks and layered (heirarchical) microbial populations to remain intact.
Were I to do this again [not presently growing indoors] I would attempt replanting almost immediately following harvest because the interaction between roots and microbes has a lot to do with the life of soil [as demonstrated previously by Mr Fista]
When we switched to an indoor facsimile of our outdoor beds we used stacked bins and left the soil fully intact, treating it with liquid amendments and teams of composting worms between planting.
This allowed fungal networks and layered (heirarchical) microbial populations to remain intact.
Were I to do this again [not presently growing indoors] I would attempt replanting almost immediately following harvest because the interaction between roots and microbes has a lot to do with the life of soil [as demonstrated previously by Mr Fista]
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