Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Weird]

earthworms, springtails and other organisms till for me

i had a sliced potato in the soil to attract root feeders and scope their populations and in one pot i forgot to take it out

i watered it and while it was still very moist i took the potato out

it had a handful of worms on it feeding aggressively

nature cracked this nut a while ago, im just along for the ride

 

[Luther Burbank]

Dave, if you can't be polite or resist lashing out with implications because your point of view has been questioned I have no interest in having a discussion with you. I've been around here long enough that your claims of being here "a decade" mean very little to me, and your suggestion that I don't have any knowledge of soil science even less. Certainly don't try talking down to me about soil science if you don't consider Calcium worth worrying about.

Mikell, I've used a few of AEAs products and am quite pleased with them. John Kempf is an intelligent man who brings a lot to the table in terms of thoughtful discussion and it saddens me to see discussion stifled and a person dismissed because of a paradigm in organics that treats differing thought as heresy. I'm not going to tow their entire product line but there are several products that are of use to organic gardeners. The proof is in the pudding and dismissing the company because they sell something is an erroneous way of thinking I believe. You can certainly grow with just compost and water but there are gains to be made with amending and fertilizing. I also have to disagree with your comments about neem and kelp being expensive inputs. Neem is a staple for organic gardening and pest management. I don't see any rational to excluding neem or kelp except for satisfying an ideology that says it's wrong.

 

[CimeTempestose]

Hi, I apologize to break through the discussion.. But.. Litothamium ??

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I can see a historical outlook on composting rejecting algae. I wouldn't know what time period to pinpoint the introduction of sea related amendments to agriculture, but I can see how those who are critically reliant on land as willling to overlook the ocean. Yet if you consider alfalfa's tradition there isn't such a divide between land and sea theoretically. River silt is certainly organic and you would be hard-pressed to prove its inability to coexist with compost, that is assuming rivers do occur in most locations where humans are growing cannabis.

 

[Siskiyou]

I love the smell of healthy living soil.

 

[Luther Burbank]

I agree Siskiyou. Going out into the woods and picking up a big handful of forest humus, might be one of my favourite smells.

 

[Microbeman]

I kinda find myself siding with Dave's first little statement and Mike's addition but am entirely put off by Dave's second post. I like to see local inputs used which backs up the use of compost and/or organic matter. For those who have such poor native soil that they cannot grow a weed, then give it up. As the brilliant C4 has pointed out if you don't have it in your compost or soil, look over the fence, around the corner --- there it is!

If you doubt your composting abilities, let the worms do it; some say garbage in > garbage out. I say BS to that. Cardboard and newspaper in > out comes matter rich in flagellates, amoebae, ciliates, bacteria, fungi.
Better inputs better? Of course! Throw in yer coffee grounds and potato peels.

CEC is no mystery > got organic matter > got compost > got clay
> got CEC. Need a differing nutrient profile coming out of your
[V]compost? Burn some things first.

Tilling improves things Dave? - I dunno.

Neem --- I got none growing in my neighborhood and its expensive to buy good quality but I can get cheap alfalfameal and kelpmeal at the feed store.

Beware the cool scientist/farmer dudes with the cool powerpoints and make everything sound so reasonable...like they know what's going on in the plant tissue. Sure like Luther says some of their things work...the pudding. It does not mean everything they say is gold.

Rock dust; Of course its good for soil and plants (combined with organic matter) That's what soil is. Now there's some brilliant soil science!

When I first came to this forum, I was preaching that you can grow with what's around you, like top soil from a grass field mixed with horse poo [v]compost and creek sand/gravel; that it is the life in the soil that counts. I haven't changed the sermon.

Dave; microbes are slow?? Come on eh! Ever watched wet leaves dissappear overnight?

That forest soil smell mmmmm....actinobacteria mixed with mycellia.

 

[Mikell]

Damnit, lately every time I agree with someone I end up getting my foot shot off by their following posts...

Mikell, I've used a few of AEAs products and am quite pleased with them. John Kempf is an intelligent man who brings a lot to the table in terms of thoughtful discussion and it saddens me to see discussion stifled and a person dismissed because of a paradigm in organics that treats differing thought as heresy. I'm not going to tow their entire product line but there are several products that are of use to organic gardeners. The proof is in the pudding and dismissing the company because they sell something is an erroneous way of thinking I believe. You can certainly grow with just compost and water but there are gains to be made with amending and fertilizing. I also have to disagree with your comments about neem and kelp being expensive inputs. Neem is a staple for organic gardening and pest management. I don't see any rational to excluding neem or kelp except for satisfying an ideology that says it's wrong.

Allow me to dispell a few assumptions...

I've read good things about AEA, but everytime I wander in to the main thread, my eyes glaze over at the convoluted schedules the full scale adherents keep. Truth be told, I haven't spent much time reading on Kempf or the whole AEA lineup. Kempf, because I haven't read very far there yet, AEA because I order few things I can not source locally, and they're not even close to making the list.

I am not dismissing the company because they sell a product, that would be ridiculous. I do somewhat dismiss companies that believe I need all sixteen of their products to grow well...

You disagree with my comment about price, then respond with idealogy? That doesn't make it cost less. Price and availability are large deterants to the average non-cannabis grower, unless they're looking to satisfy a personal idealogy.

Kelp at least, can be somewhat easily DIY sourced by anyone within a reasonable distance from a shoreline. Neem, not so much. As I mentioned, I speak with a number of international growers, many who grow peppers with the same passion those here expend on cannabis. If either is even available, most are not willing to pay the premium. I use both myself, but few outside of cannabis growers are going to spend that kind of money.

Compost/water only, as a hard and fast rule, doesn't appeal to me, but is much more in line with my way of thinking than growing from a large list of expensive, hard to source ingredients.

 

[Luther Burbank]

Mikell, I totally understand that wandering into the main AEA thread. There's a couple people who might as well be salespeople for the company in there and they make discussion very hard. If I had to suggest one of the AEA products alone it'd be sea shield, because wet ball milling crab and shrimp meal is not something that is feasible for the average grower.

I don't find neem to be expensive on a per gallon basis, or in terms of preventitive care. A gallon of neem oil runs runs $83+shipping from neemresource, so let's say $100 total. At 1oz neem for 1 gallon spray you're getting 128 gallons out of that, or around 78 cents per gallon of spray. To me compared with the cost of loss of crop that is a reasonably priced organic pesticide/fungicide.

 

[Mikell]

I hope I did not come off as combative.

I was refering to neem meal. Neem oil I source from New Directions. I was going to order from Ahimsa, but the shipping increased the price to something like 130 bucks a gallon, and I can order similar from New Directions as "carrier oil" for half the price, and avoid the small potential of losing it at the border. Azadirachtin levels from MSDS/Certificate of Analysis 1000-2000ppm, shy of Ahimsa (I believe around 3000ppm), but it has worked well so far, at least anectdotally. It took two sprays to destroy a aphid population, neem/rosemary and neem/peppermint.

Neem cake, at around 1/2-1c per cu foot isn't that expensive per say, especially if you buy in 50lb bags, but few do and the average pound sourced locally is around 5 bucks. It isn't "expensive" re: inhibitively priced, but it does increase my cost per cu foot more than any component other than kelp meal.

Crab/shrimp meal is something I'm strugging to find without shipping, I'll definitely check that out.

 

[Microbeman]

I was also referring to neem cake (meal). I have not tried neem oil for years and perhaps it has improved but two things I did not like is that it left a weird residue and killed beneficial insects (IME).

 

[Luther Burbank]

MM, I really need to review the list of beneficial insects in does harm, because I know it isn't entirely harmless, but I've also seen no evidence of dead beneficials at my application rate. I've definitely sprayed spiders and mantids accidentally and they've still been hanging about days later. I seem to remember reading neem was deadly to mantids so I was surprised to see it - assuming it was the same one and not just another mantis in the same general location.

I'm a big fan of crab meal in my soil, indoors and out, both for the chitin content and the calcium content. I can source it basically for free though - if I had to pay the price Neptune's Harvest wants for it as a soil amendment it'd be prohibitively expensive. I can understand the feeling that neem meal is too expensive and not worth sourcing from outside.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Neem doesnt always outright kill but disrupts the insects ability to feed or mature, breed etc

It is the ONLY thing (neem seed meal) that has guaranteed my indoor grow is fungus gnat free...

The neem and aloe vera powder are the only things i have to source from far away. Silica solution is the only thing i buy from the hydro store these days. Green coconut milk powder from the health food store is also very useful...

 

[VerdantGreen]

Neem doesnt always outright kill but disrupts the insects ability to feed or mature, breed etc

It is the ONLY thing (neem seed meal) that has guaranteed my indoor grow is fungus gnat free...

same here.

 

[Coba]

nice plants Weird.

 

[FatherEarth]

AEA doenst make a cannabis line of nutrients and we started using them before the AEA hype and sales "reps" started relentless spamming. That is why I keep the whole lineup around. Its all good stuff and used together blended properly it makes up what thhey are about to release as a cannabis line. Personally Im sticking with AEA and not going to mess with the "new" formula they are making for cannabis with only 2 bottles. I was a fan of kempf before I ever tried his products. His products back up all the stuff he talks and teaches about. Its cheap in the scope of nutrients and what they return in quality. It can be the missing link.

FE

 

[FatherEarth]

nice plants Weird.

Word.

 

[Borderliner]

Thanks for a great thread. Have learned much here and had good results with my first grow.
b

 

[Weird]

24 hours after I water. When I water in another 24 they will all wash away and the process will start again

 

[rik78]

sorry for my ignorance, but... what are we looking exactly?