Lightweight Peat's Mucky Muck soil testing

[biggreg]

im having trouble understanding the Tiedjens stuff. 85% Ca, no Na, No H. Growing at a ph of 7.0? In high organic matter soil? How do they manage P, Mn, B, Cu and zinc?
I asked on the other thread about Ph and had no answer. I want to try a small batch just to see for myself.

I guess I'm confused by this chart at the bottom of this webpage on nutrient availability of organic soils.

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/soil_buffer_ph#nutrient_availability_charts

 

[biggreg]

are there slans for organic soils?

Yes. North Carolina department of Ag has Mehlich 3 calibrated SLAN for their blacklands organic soils. I believe Cornell has some, Florida state, Michigan state. Others I'm sure. It's just each state does it a bit diffrent and I haven't quite sorted it out yet.



One of the reasons I'd like to look at my soil test reports volumetrically is to check my BCSR vs SLAN. All SLAN is based on mass per volume( lbs per acre furrow sclice) not mass per dry weight.

 

[biggreg]

when i take my non-scooped Mehlich 3 test I got from Spectrum and convert it from mg/kg to mg/L with my bulk density, my SLAN levels look pretty decent on this chart except Ca is very high.

https://watersag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Understanding-Soil-Report.pdf


Since SLAN sorta ignores the soil and is just calibrated to plant response at various lbs/acre of applied nutrients, I'm figuring organic vs mineral wouldn't change much. Just have to look at the organic per volume not per dry mass. An acre slice is an acre slice and a plant needs what a plant needs.

Testing and reporting on the amounts per dry mass is fine for mineral soil. Lightweight soils have to be converted to amounts per volume.

 

[jidoka]

im having trouble understanding the Tiedjens stuff. 85% Ca, no Na, No H. Growing at a ph of 7.0? In high organic matter soil? How do they manage P, Mn, B, Cu and zinc?
I asked on the other thread about Ph and had no answer. I want to try a small batch just to see for myself.

I guess I'm confused by this chart at the bottom of this webpage on nutrient availability of organic soils.

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/soil_buffer_ph#nutrient_availability_charts

tiejens forces you to fertigate/spray several things. it is in a sense a hybrid soil/hydro method. indoors i find it genius...just thinking if i get cec high enough and pots big enough i wont have to fertigate k and can run a low enough pH to maximize uptake.

outdoors i like a hybrid mineral/organic soil with a 6.5-6.8 pH, albrecht ratios and fed a shitload of microbes

 

[biggreg]

Thank you. I was speculating it had to be that way

 

[biggreg]

I'm wondering what an "ideal" BCSR ratio would be for an all organic-based soil? Maybe at a ph of 5.5 to no more than 6.0? Those ph targets seem to be agreed upon by these universities in the states with organic soil cultivation and soil testing happening.

 

[jidoka]

ain't saying it is right but we are running higher phs...6.5...in pure organic soils indoors and feeding lots of microbes to make things available. Some of the micros become unavailable that way so I foliar.

70-75% Ca, 3-4% K and 10-12% Mg will grow disease free plants with no ipm. a little K right at the end, if the plants are really healthy can boost yield.

We use Horiba sap meters to track where the plant is and adjust as necessary

edit...on a Logan test my Ca comes in at 9500 lbs/acre with a tcec of something like 33-34, 71% bc %

 

[biggreg]

outdoors i like a hybrid mineral/organic soil with a 6.5-6.8 pH, albrecht ratios and fed a shitload of microbes

A goal I have is to mix a water only, very high CEC, locally mined peat, my own compost, local sand and local clay based , low cost, tested, mineral balanced, organic recycle-able , do nothing during and recharge it after a grow type soil. That is my main focus at this point.

 

[biggreg]

I've only just discovered the reccomendations of all the organic soil testing states. Only very recently even paid attention to the organic vs mineral ph availability charts. All the info I've posted is new to me and I'm sorting it all out as I post.

 

[acespicoli]

Caution if your using treated city water it will kill your microbes chlorates

 

[biggreg]

All this started when it became known to me that re-amending according to bulk density didn't work with these scooped tested lightweight soils like it does ( without being concious of it most likely) with 1g/1cm3 mineral soil.

The BD is the bridge between per dry mass and per your volume. Drove me nuts as y'all can probably tell by my thread that my Mehlich's weren't adding up. I was told to just pretend my report was per volume and I couldn't do it even though I was able to make a soil test look balanced by amending that way.



That Spectrum test was my first real 2g ( after a demand for redo) weigh in proper test and it matches my CEC 7.0 test. Feel like I'm finally getting some traction on understanding and trusting these tests.

 

[biggreg]

Caution if your using treated city water it will kill your microbes chlorates

Sir, Your devotion to learning is admirable.

Cultivation of concentrated mental focus is mutually beneficial to one's self and to others in your business discussions and life in general.

One rabbit hole per thread is an ideal that would increase the usefulness of our forum

 

[acespicoli]

Sir, Your devotion to learning is admirable.

Cultivation of concentrated mental focus is mutually beneficial to one's self and to others in your business discussions and life in general.

One rabbit hole per thread is an ideal that would increase the usefulness of our forum

duly noted

 

[acespicoli]

peace and love biggreg positive vibes brother

 

[biggreg]

This rabbit hole was described on post # 1,

Organic soils vs mineral soils testing and test interpretation.

And right off the bat is the devil that got me going on this problem, bulk density.

I'm not finding any mucky muck peat farm anywhere using BCSR. Maybe they should be, I don't know. I do know the ones I've investigated all look at their tests volumetrically and have similar lbs per acre SLAN levels as they rec for min soil or have higher per mass recs for their avg density of organic soils in their state

To come up with pounds per acre slice, you either assume density or measure it. It's only safe to assume with mineral soil that is close to 1/1 density.

who cares how many grams we have per a mass of dried soil. The relevant thing is how many grams we have in a volume and grams we want to add to a volume.

Were already either a BD converter or a BD assumer. Whether we realize it or not.

If people get properly weighed in tests, they will have to either measure or closely guess the BD to amend. The 1/1 won't work like it does for a scooped test.


The current scoop weigh tests are sorta like a twisted original Mehlich method with the much bigger 2.5cm3 scoop and 25ml sauce. But with less soil and sauce and in the wrong units.

If a lab wanted to scoop, why not spend a few more pennies on a bigger scoop, just a dash more sauce and skip the per mass stuff?
It's in the manual. So easy to switch over. No extra time required for the lab guys. Report in mg/l and CEC in meq/100cm3

The scooped to measure mass of an organic soil with a mineral soil calibrated mass approximating scoop test is bogus.

The scoop to measure volume of any soil and report them all in volumetric units mg/l and CEC in meq/100cm3 was Mehlich's plan.
He wasn't a fan of the per dry mass stuff.

Either way a lab does it, as long as it's a standard written scientific procedure, I'm cool.

What we have now is bullshit.

 

[biggreg]

peace and love biggreg positive vibes brother

One love

 

[biggreg]

I need to go back to earlier in the thread to edit the "effective" CEC stuff. It's clear to me now that the "effective" CEC isn't what I should have been looking for.

The "brookside" / Logan TCEC estimates CEC @ 7.0 ph.

The AA 7.0 CEC-7 test is the standard used by the Feds for classifying soils including histosols. It should be accurate. Get rid of the TCEC calc and go off the direct measurement of CEC @ 7.0 ph. This test is in the 4 regional manuals and the usda Kellog lab manual. It's used more in the soil survey/ engineering side I believe. Ask your lab about it.


Interesting how this SLAN approach differs in almost every state or private lab.

Several states that have variable CEC soils use CEC to adjust their SLAN reccomendations. Per the SERA manual, several southern states estimated effective CEC at the sample ph by the addition of the Ca+Mg+K cations, some states add Na.


In states with more homogenous soils, CEC is ignored. It's all about field trials, adding lbs per acre and yield response correlation and calibration.

 

[biggreg]

Okay guys.

It's dawned on me. The volumetric scoop North Carolina Mechlich original 2.5cm3/25ml system isn't going to work for me.
While i most definitely am a supporter of their relevant volumetric reporting units, we need tests that cross reference each other and all the other tests in the book are per mass only. The volume scoop method can be converted to per mass units but the soil has maybe double the density after drying and a fine grind so converting back to field volume is problematic.

If I want a CEC-7 or a cation extraction AA8.2 to compare to my Mehlich 3, the Mehlich better be in per mass units.

Makes me wonder, hmmm, for the guys ordering the Mehlich 3 with a side of AA8.2, how was the sample mass measured into each test? Hmmmm...

We know the Mehlich was measured with a miscalibrated mineral soil spoon but how about that AA8.2?

How dialed in are we? If a lab can't measure mass properly for a per mass test, what can they do right?

I'm all for fun, interesting, wacky soil extraction experiments. Alternate dilution ratios, mystery masses, 1/2 standard sample sizes, alternate shake times, alternate grinds and filtering, it all sounds awesome but we also need to have a written, accepted, peer reviewed gold standard to compare the experimental stuff to.

The standards are in place already. They all have been hashed out in committee long ago and agreed to. Look at a standardized test first then go play exploratory chemistry.

When I buy a "Mehlich 3" soil test, it better damn well follow the definition of a Mehlich 3. Its cool to have a lab willing to play chemistry but if your lab doesn't realize it's play time and lacks the abilities to follow the written instruction in the shop manuals, maybe it's time to find another lab, just sayin'

 

[biggreg]

Some decent Chemistree is all I wanted this year!

 

[biggreg]

How many grams of sample was used in your AA8.2?

2.5g?

Do they even make a 2.5g scoop?

Or are they running the 10g version.
If light weight soil mass is under measured with a "2gram" spoon you're pretty far off, imagine a freaking "10gram" mineral soil scoop calibrated to an imaginary 1.18g/cm3 proccessed and ground density to simulate an imaginary 1g dried/1cm3, imaginary soil.

Can you imagine?