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Lemon Thai

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow.

So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the individual lines followed. As in all species' deviations, historically these tended to be geographically separated, such as African and Indian elephants having different ears etc.

In the south eastern area of Asia, you have what is referred to as an X to autosome, sex determining system. In Pakistan India Afghanistan regions, you have the Active Y, system.

Active Y is what we all know and think of in terms of boys and girls. Girls having XX chromosomes as boys having XY chromosomes. So the presence of a Y, determines a male

In X to autosome lines, there is no Y. There are only XX plants. The difference between the generation of female flowers and male flowers, lies in the other chromosomes. This is done by the number of copies of a sex determining gene. I'll give a very basic and simplistic analogy.

If you have two pillow cases with 100 tennis balls in each, and you want to make a third pillow case with 100 tennis balls in by taking half of the balls from each pillow case, you can see this is the same process as breeding two anythings together. Now if each pillow case has mainly yellow tennis balls in it, but one has 8 red ones and the other has 16 red ones inside, we have a difference. If we take tennis balls at random from each pillowcase, then this new pillowcase will be filled with mainly yellow tennis balls, but have a random chance of gaining somewhere between 0 and 24 red tennis balls. The average red count being 12 red balls.

Now in X to autosome systems, there will be a critical number of these genes that will determine if the plant will grow male flowers or not. This gene is referred to as sex-det 1. If the number of copies of this gene is above the critical limit, then these XX girls will grow only male flowers. These will be perceived as boys, however they aren't boys, they are girls with a sufficient sex-det 1count, to express as males. If the sex-det 1 count is below a certain limit, then these XX girls will only express female flowers. However when the sex-det 1 count hovers around this critical limit, you get intersexed flowers being produced.

This is not due to faulty genes as it would be in active Y lines, that can simply be removed from the gene pool, but are a direct result of the system of determination used.

The only way to remove intersexed individuals from such a line, would be to reduce the count of Sex-det 1 genes to 0. This would of course leave the line feminised forever.

Now go back to the pillow cases, by selecting pillow cases with the least red balls in them, and breeding them together, using artificial means, we reduce both the average and the potential range of the number of red tennis balls in the new pillow cases. However if we start breeding a pillow case with red balls below the critical number, (plants that show only female flowers), and pillow cases with lots of red balls (plants that show exclusively male flowers), then we may be increasing the average red ball (sex-det 1) count above the upper limit to show exclusively female flowers, and in turn increase the number of intersexed plants in the offspring.
You will always get the standard deviation curve from the offspring, with plants with low counts of the male flower genes, and plants with the highest count being in limited numbers, at each end of the graph, and with the majority of examples being in-between the two extreme groups averaging out towards the middle, in what is referred to as a standard deviation curve.

This means that by using "males" in x to autosome lines, you are increasing the average count of sex-det 1 genes present in all the offspring. By reversing a female and pollinating either itself or another low count female, you are reducing the average count of sex-det 1 genes.
One way increases the intersexed individuals in the next generation, and the other way reduces it.

Hopefully I pretty much covered that there.
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
@LG/ I take what @GMT says seriously, he knows genetics very well and a lot of it is a bit too complex for me too. A lot of lines, especially se asian, you get many more females than males. If it was simple x/y sex determination then you would get 50/50 so the x to autosome would explain that at least.. there was a lot of chat about it a year or two ago...
If my 'm/f' repro of LT leads to an unacceptable number of plants with intersex traits then i'll go back down the fem route i guess...
what i will probably do is try to keep batches of seeds from different population crosses separate, (bodhi to bodhi, bodhi to Derg, Derg to Derg etc) so then if any batches show a lot of undesirable plants i can pull them from the mix. Its not only the intersex we are watching out for... there is fasciation and other mutant stuff going on too : )
 

LG/

Well-known member
Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow.

So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the individual lines followed. As in all species' deviations, historically these tended to be geographically separated, such as African and Indian elephants having different ears etc.

In the south eastern area of Asia, you have what is referred to as an X to autosome, sex determining system. In Pakistan India Afghanistan regions, you have the Active Y, system.

Active Y is what we all know and think of in terms of boys and girls. Girls having XX chromosomes as boys having XY chromosomes. So the presence of a Y, determines a male

In X to autosome lines, there is no Y. There are only XX plants. The difference between the generation of female flowers and male flowers, lies in the other chromosomes. This is done by the number of copies of a sex determining gene. I'll give a very basic and simplistic analogy.

If you have two pillow cases with 100 tennis balls in each, and you want to make a third pillow case with 100 tennis balls in by taking half of the balls from each pillow case, you can see this is the same process as breeding two anythings together. Now if each pillow case has mainly yellow tennis balls in it, but one has 8 red ones and the other has 16 red ones inside, we have a difference. If we take tennis balls at random from each pillowcase, then this new pillowcase will be filled with mainly yellow tennis balls, but have a random chance of gaining somewhere between 0 and 24 red tennis balls. The average red count being 12 red balls.

Now in X to autosome systems, there will be a critical number of these genes that will determine if the plant will grow male flowers or not. This gene is referred to as sex-det 1. If the number of copies of this gene is above the critical limit, then these XX girls will grow only male flowers. These will be perceived as boys, however they aren't boys, they are girls with a sufficient sex-det 1count, to express as males. If the sex-det 1 count is below a certain limit, then these XX girls will only express female flowers. However when the sex-det 1 count hovers around this critical limit, you get intersexed flowers being produced.

This is not due to faulty genes as it would be in active Y lines, that can simply be removed from the gene pool, but are a direct result of the system of determination used.

The only way to remove intersexed individuals from such a line, would be to reduce the count of Sex-det 1 genes to 0. This would of course leave the line feminised forever.

Now go back to the pillow cases, by selecting pillow cases with the least red balls in them, and breeding them together, using artificial means, we reduce both the average and the potential range of the number of red tennis balls in the new pillow cases. However if we start breeding a pillow case with red balls below the critical number, (plants that show only female flowers), and pillow cases with lots of red balls (plants that show exclusively male flowers), then we may be increasing the average red ball (sex-det 1) count above the upper limit to show exclusively female flowers, and in turn increase the number of intersexed plants in the offspring.
You will always get the standard deviation curve from the offspring, with plants with low counts of the male flower genes, and plants with the highest count being in limited numbers, at each end of the graph, and with the majority of examples being in-between the two extreme groups averaging out towards the middle, in what is referred to as a standard deviation curve.

This means that by using "males" in x to autosome lines, you are increasing the average count of sex-det 1 genes present in all the offspring. By reversing a female and pollinating either itself or another low count female, you are reducing the average count of sex-det 1 genes.
One way increases the intersexed individuals in the next generation, and the other way reduces it.

Hopefully I pretty much covered that there.
Thank you for taking the time to explain that, and being very reasonable in your disposition while doing so. I appreciate you.
This is fascinating to me. Never heard of this before. Scientific papers can read sort of like legalese, I'll only understand some of it. So I really appreciate you putting it in simple terms.
I had no idea that these strains based on sex det genes x to autosome existed. Great info.
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
@VerdantGreen Fasciation is another gene count example actually. The gene in question is the lea13 gene which generates branches at nodes. It's the one I was playing with in my bruised nuts line, taking them from 2 to 3 and then to 4 branches per node. As you increase the frequency of that gene, at the outlier edges, you start to get an increase in fasciation counts. It's much easier to play with though as you can spot it at seedling stage rather than having to wait until mid flowering.
@led05 does a lot of work with s e.asian lines, it would be great to hear his opinions / observations on this too.
 

led05

Chasing The Present
@VerdantGreen Fasciation is another gene count example actually. The gene in question is the lea13 gene which generates branches at nodes. It's the one I was playing with in my bruised nuts line, taking them from 2 to 3 and then to 4 branches per node. As you increase the frequency of that gene, at the outlier edges, you start to get an increase in fasciation counts. It's much easier to play with though as you can spot it at seedling stage rather than having to wait until mid flowering.
@led05 does a lot of work with s e.asian lines, it would be great to hear his opinions / observations on this too.
Fasciation is interesting

1) I generally dislike it in cannabis (more stem, leaf & less flower)
2) I think insects can make plants appear fasciated in appearance though not truly a fasciated plant
3) extremely inbred haze fasciates a lot ime, it’s also the worst Haze there are, again imo
4)people often mix up phyllotaxy & fasciation, definitely different

IME SE Asian don’t fasciate all that often but will exhibit phyllotaxy, Cambodian #1 I grew had up to 10 nodes / level, it was crazy packed !

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, and being very reasonable in your disposition while doing so. I appreciate you.
This is fascinating to me. Never heard of this before. Scientific papers can read sort of like legalese, I'll only understand some of it. So I really appreciate you putting it in simple terms.
I had no idea that these strains based on sex det genes x to autosome existed. Great info.
I appreciated his post a lot too! It’s also why many of us believe you’ll never find a firm SE Asian male, they graze right along side Unicorns :) -

Is this LG my long lost cactus buddy ?
 
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GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
I appreciated his post a lot too! It’s also why many of us believe you’ll never find a firm SE Asian male, they graze right along side Unicorns :)

Sorry man, yeah this is what I was hoping to hear your views on. The way I worded that did sound like I was calling on you about fasciation sorry, it was the whole s.e.asain sex determination thing I really wanted your thoughts and observations on.
I've seen you've been doing a hell of a lot of work with them. I know Tom refused to remove intersexed individuals from his breeding lines, I gave him a lot of grief for that, but I'm now thinking that it was the best way to keep their numbers minimal. I also suspect that this is DJ Short's "male Hermies help to stabilise a strain" mistaken observation.
 

led05

Chasing The Present
Sorry man, yeah this is what I was hoping to hear your views on. The way I worded that did sound like I was calling on you about fasciation sorry, it was the whole s.e.asain sex determination thing I really wanted your thoughts and observations on.
I've seen you've been doing a hell of a lot of work with them. I know Tom refused to remove intersexed individuals from his breeding lines, I gave him a lot of grief for that, but I'm now thinking that it was the best way to keep their numbers minimal. I also suspect that this is DJ Short's "male Hermies help to stabilise a strain" mistaken observation.
I think your post was mostly accurate outside a few key things, predominantly I’ve never seen a pure SE Asian fully express male without pistols (Not even close, almost like a qualifier to its’ purity), and Many of the females have pockets of males in a flower here & there, it’s self preservation, survival of the fittest and of course generations of breeding practices or lack of any. Im not sure Anyone knows what drives balance in Equatorial Sativas especially SE Asians to present in part Female or Male, it’s all rather fluid, truly not just to be hip to the parlance of the times :) - nobody knows exactly what tips the bucket (envision an allergy bucket) one ways or another but 95% + are expressed as majority female ime…SE Asians that is

Eliminate Haze & Colombians and every equatorial I’ve grown is extremely heavy in “females” 90% + - It tells you a lot about pure Haze origins imo ;)

Personally when it comes to cannabis, and especially NLD it’s more about what’s acceptable as far as hermaphroditism is concerned, how much and more importantly when drives my tolerances

I think Tom & DJ just realized it’s deeply inherit in the SE A genetics, breeding away from it tossed out much more value than worth, especially with the efforts needed, only to fail…
 
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GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting that either of them understood the science of it, just that their observations and practices benefitted from it. By leaning into it, they reduced it's negative affect.

The statistical likely hood of witnessing a statistical outlier, is by its nature, unlikely for any individual. I wouldn't rely on anecdotal, empirical evidence, to rule out the existence beyond an ontological one though. All swans were white, until we saw a russian one.

I think to say no one knows is inaccurate however, the science is there and has been done, the precise numbers are something I don't know, but the mechanisms are established.


Couple of papers to look at if anyone's interested

Genetic Architecture of Flowering Time and Sex Determination in Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.): A Genome-Wide Association Study.
Petit, J., Salentijn, E. M. J., Paulo, M.-J., Denneboom, C., & Trindade, L. M.
Frontiers in Plant Science, 11.(2020).
doi:10.3389/fpls.2020.569958


Identification of QTLs for sex expression in dioecious and monoecious hemp (Cannabis sativa L.)
A.-M. Faux . X. Draye . M.-C. Flamand, A. Occre . P. Bertin
Euphytica
DOI: 10.1007/s10681-016-1641-2
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Fasciation is interesting

1) I generally dislike it in cannabis (more stem, leaf & less flower)
2) I think insects can make plants appear fasciated in appearance though not truly a fasciated plant
3) extremely inbred haze fasciates a lot ime, it’s also the worst Haze there are, again imo
4)people often mix up phyllotaxy & fasciation, definitely different
as a 'regular' gardener i agree that there are definitly environmental causes of fasciation (or something that looks just like it) i see it occasionally on a vast range of plants and it can appear on a perennial plant or shrub one year on one branch and then never again. My favorite occurence was this rose branch:
Screenshot 2024-02-18 at 10.09.01.png
Screenshot 2024-02-18 at 10.09.13.png

VG
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hey @GMT thanks again can you explain how this works please
I know Tom refused to remove intersexed individuals from his breeding lines, I gave him a lot of grief for that, but I'm now thinking that it was the best way to keep their numbers minimal.
Cheers
VG :tiphat:
 

Nannymouse

Well-known member
Saw my first example of fasciation on a squash plant, last summer. Instead of a 'stem' trailing out, it had an 8 inch wide 'ribbon' that was about ten feet long(maybe more), with sprouts coming out the top side, just like those rose pictures from @VerdantGreen . Hubby had pics of it on his phone, i don't know if he still has them. I'd certainly not seen anything quite like that, before.
 

LG/

Well-known member
Fasciation is interesting

1) I generally dislike it in cannabis (more stem, leaf & less flower)
2) I think insects can make plants appear fasciated in appearance though not truly a fasciated plant
3) extremely inbred haze fasciates a lot ime, it’s also the worst Haze there are, again imo
4)people often mix up phyllotaxy & fasciation, definitely different

IME SE Asian don’t fasciate all that often but will exhibit phyllotaxy, Cambodian #1 I grew had up to 10 nodes / level, it was crazy packed !


I appreciated his post a lot too! It’s also why many of us believe you’ll never find a firm SE Asian male, they graze right along side Unicorns :) -

Is this LG my long lost cactus buddy ?
No, I have no relation to cacti. Sorry bud!
 

LG/

Well-known member
Hey @GMT thanks again can you explain how this works please

Cheers
VG :tiphat:
I'd like to add to this question.
We are talking about pure/landrace strains generally speaking here right?
Im assuming most hybrids would have moved away from this gene copy dictated showing of sex. But I could be wrong here.

Is this mostly found in sativa type strains or also found in indicas? (Using these terms to refer to growth type in plants)

I've seen some strain descriptions saying that they are only outdoor, and will likely be intersex indoors. Any thoughts on this?

Also, this is abit off topic but assuming a plant is healthy, enviornment is good no light leaks ect, what other causes are possible for intersex expression?
Not just a few nanners here and there, but full on male and female parts showing early.
Is this always a case of gene copies being on the tipping point or are there other breeding/genetic factors that can cause a plant to be intersex?

My example is In House Slurricane #7 fems from 2022, it was full on intersex.

Thanks @GMT for your time and knowledge.
Sorry if these questions are off topic or simplistic. Just trying to understand the different causes of intersex generally speaking.
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Hey V.G.
This would be so much easier to show in an excel sheet rather than typing here. But I'll do my best mate.
Let's say you have 1 x to auto good girl. No signs of pollen sacks or even the odd banana, and you want to make seeds. You have 4 options:
1. Self it.
2. Find another good girl, reverse her and pollinate your first.
3. Use an intersexed plant as a pollen donor.
4. Look for a plant with exclusively male flowers.

Tom only used selfing to examine the recombination of genes present in a plant. Recessive paring, Hermie traits, establishing dominant genes etc. He championed it as a tool to open up a plant, but he wasn't big on using it in a breeding program due to his breeding goals of preservation.
Because of these goals, he chose to use open pollination. He would collect pollen from every plant that produced it, mix it, and apply it to every plant that could utilise it. He was scared of losing genes for the future. He felt that in doing this, he was capturing every gene in the population and giving it a chance to be in the following population.
In practice, by doing that, what he was doing was using plants whose sex_det1 count, was above the level required to show exclusively female, but below the count needed to show exclusively male, in a lot of the matings created.
In doing that, he was using "low count plants" and "mid count plants" as parents and I would assume some "high count plants" as well.
Now if you only use "low count plants" and "high count plants" (plants showing as female and plants showing male) then you are averaging the same sex_det1 count in the following population. However, if you use more "mid count plants" in the breeding population than "high count plants" over time, what you are doing is reducing the average count per plant.
By reducing this count, you lower the likely hood of any particular plant having inherited sufficient sex_det1 genes to show as intersex. Now the outliers are not exclusively male, but rather intersexed individuals, and of course creates more good girls. In fact in order to get high sex_det1 counts, it may now be necessary to breed two intersexed individuals in order for some of the combinations to join in some plants to form exclusively male flowers.
The irony being, that by attempting to preserve everything, he may have inadvertently ended up working the line and reducing both the male count and the intersexed counts of individuals in the line.


LG/, well we are talking x to autosome, found in s.e Asia. I'm not really sure what constitutes the parameters of landrace. If they are farmed, if they are grown in a greenhouse, if they are taken indoors, are they still land race? I don't know. In X to autosome, the mechanics stay the same regardless of their location.
Hybrids are a tricky area. I don't know how a line that relies on the active Y system would respond to an abundance of sex_det1 genes. But I suspect we may have more cases of this than we realise. Clearly in the initial cross, the number in the F1 generation will be greatly reduced, due to only one parent possessing any at all. In the F2 generation, we may start to see a few outliers having inherited a sufficient number of copies, to start showing intersexed flowers, assuming the Active Y line doesn't have anything to neutralise the affects of these genes. From there on, the effects of these genes will only be seen where there are enough copies of the gene inherited to affect the flowers grown.
This is most definitely a sub division of sativas we are talking about. The Columbians etc don't seem to have developed in this way, nor any of the indicas, however with the movement of traders etc, and the pollution of local populations, I suppose these genes can find their way into any population.
As for strain descriptions, salesmen sell their wares saying all sorts of things. Elon said he'd have self driving robotaxis 5 years ago, people bought his shares as he sold them. I wouldn't take sales blurb too literally. If someone is worried their wares will be faulty, they will often blame misuse.
We have only been talking about the x to auto situation here, but yes there are factors that affect the active Y populations as well. However in the x to auto, to reduce intersex there may be an argument for using intersexed individuals, in active Y it is never a good idea. In the active Y system, something is very wrong somewhere when you see intersexed flowers. We know from studies, that we have never found an intersex male. A Y will always silence the female flowers from forming, however two X's may not always silence the male flowers from forming. Therefore, either a mutation in the X may have formed and met with the same X mutation on the other side, or the issue can be located in the autosomal region, where the instruction sets for the formation of the male flowers sit. If these aren't being silenced, or are being activated, either way, you are going to see male flowers.
I'm afraid I don't know the lineage of slurricane to make any guesses on that.
 

VerdantGreen

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Thanks so much @GMT you are a legend ! - it makes sense.

So, in an X to auto population, using an intersex plant to make seeds rather than a 'male' would produce progeny that showed less intersex traits ?!? thats crazy and a breeder would need some balls of steel to do that !
If i get the opportunity to try this out i will have to do so.

that said, as you point out, you would end up with a fem line which many would think was game over for preservation in seed form.... double edged sword for sure.
VG :tiphat:
 

PetePrice

Active member
Sorry man, yeah this is what I was hoping to hear your views on. The way I worded that did sound like I was calling on you about fasciation sorry, it was the whole s.e.asain sex determination thing I really wanted your thoughts and observations on.
I've seen you've been doing a hell of a lot of work with them. I know Tom refused to remove intersexed individuals from his breeding lines, I gave him a lot of grief for that, but I'm now thinking that it was the best way to keep their numbers minimal. I also suspect that this is DJ Short's "male Hermies help to stabilise a strain" mistaken observation.
Severely pissed me off the reverse hermie male thing, his f13 line is just so full of them, an intersex line if anyone ever wants to see one! I have kept two females that were stable and used one staminate plant for pollen(gave it rough treatment to give a pistol or 2, so presume fem), so will see what gives in the next generation, will cross the fems too to see..
It's been a pain and so many plants culled to try and stabilise the line for females to evaluate and keep, the other downside is keeping mums with blue/opt types is that are a pain and can auto when root bound at all...

Anyway lemon Thai... Nice smoke..
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
that said, as you point out, you would end up with a fem line which many would think was game over for preservation in seed form.... double edged sword for sure.
VG :tiphat:
It would take a few generations to get the count in all individuals down below even the intersexed level. However after you had, you could always reverse the situation within a few more with the right selections .
Let's say you got it down to well below the critical level. Breeding two of them together would give you 25% with less, 50% with the same and 25% with more. So breeding more with more would increase the count back above the critical level to see intersex. Make the right intersex to intersex crosses and you'd end up with "male only" examples. This is why working with this type is so difficult. You are essentially working blind, and a big reason Tom loved to "open them up" with selfing.

Edit: I should really stop talking about Tom since he's not on this site anymore to kick my arse for misquoting him.


Pete, the DJ thing annoys me when I read it too. I try to remind myself that these guys were working before a lot of the science we can read today had been done. It's not surprising a few of their theories weren't entirely accurate. It's their observations and mistakes tough that allows us to put the practicals they did into the context of today's available science. Good luck with the blue line you're working on.
 

VerdantGreen

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Hey mate thanks, that makes sense.
The LT plant from Bodhi that i already made S1s with has shown itself to be stable, no intersex reported as yet... so i agree it does help to show the nature of the genetics.
VG
 

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