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LED vs. HID test grow
- Thread starter Boerman
- Start date
Day 13 of flower.
I tried to take closeups of buds but my camera won't do it. All I get is blurry pics.
As you can probably tell from the pics, the LED side is taller and wider, the HID side is denser. The HID buds are developing a little better. I am not surprized by that. I am still pleasantly surprized at how well the LED side is keeping up. At this point I'd say that the LED side would probably need an extra week to finish. It's not going to get it this time. As I have stated before, I am trying not to do anything that might favor one side over the other. Both plants were put into flower when the first (the LED side) reached 18in. Now the shoe is on the other foot. As soon as one plant is ready for harvest, they both go down. I wish I didn't have to do it that way because I always take pride in what I produce. But that would defeat the purpose of the test IMO. I will leave the tweaks for more perfect buds to grows outside the test. I'd also like to bend her over, but won't for the same reason.
Future tests will use more varied wavelengths to try to address the stretch issue.
B
I tried to take closeups of buds but my camera won't do it. All I get is blurry pics.
As you can probably tell from the pics, the LED side is taller and wider, the HID side is denser. The HID buds are developing a little better. I am not surprized by that. I am still pleasantly surprized at how well the LED side is keeping up. At this point I'd say that the LED side would probably need an extra week to finish. It's not going to get it this time. As I have stated before, I am trying not to do anything that might favor one side over the other. Both plants were put into flower when the first (the LED side) reached 18in. Now the shoe is on the other foot. As soon as one plant is ready for harvest, they both go down. I wish I didn't have to do it that way because I always take pride in what I produce. But that would defeat the purpose of the test IMO. I will leave the tweaks for more perfect buds to grows outside the test. I'd also like to bend her over, but won't for the same reason.
Future tests will use more varied wavelengths to try to address the stretch issue.
B
chroniclyfaded
Member
awesome idea. ill be watching for sure.
faded
faded
I would think you should bend the LED plant down in order to get the led closer to to most of the plant not only the main top. Try to make it more of a ScrOG grow. If not i think the quantity of bud produced will be significantly reduced.
I feel LED and HID requires different growing techniques. If the plant is not kept really close to the LED it wont show its potential as the LED lights is used as if they were HID. But you have to decide how to run your test but i would give it a thought.
I feel LED and HID requires different growing techniques. If the plant is not kept really close to the LED it wont show its potential as the LED lights is used as if they were HID. But you have to decide how to run your test but i would give it a thought.
Last edited:
ingenting said:
I haven't entirely ruled it out. But I am still leaning toward un-manipulated growing. If I start bending and pruning, the focus moves more toward growing techniques than lighting. That's not what this test is all about. I am trying to establish a benchmark, something that says "if you don't know any special techniques, if you don't manipulate the plant, if you just let it grow - this is what you can reasonably expect." Then, if you want to get fancy, go for it. It should make things even better.
It pains me to keep my hands off the plants because I know I could improve the results. I would be doing that if it were not a test. But if I bend the LED side, shouldn't I bend the HID side, too? There are threads all over this site that argue the comparitive merits of different growing techniques. Soil, hydro, ScrOG, SOG, FIM, NFT, Bubblers, indoors, outdoors and on and on. All of these have their merits. All of them have one thing in common: you gotta have light to grow plants. What I want to find out is why you should choose one kind of light over another. If you get a benefit from one light, what are you giving up to get that benefit?
BigBlack81
Member
I agree. Leave them be. Raw data cannot be faked and the less touching the more definitive the results.
led's
led's
Not that I am complaining (I check this thread almost daily) but the problem w/ this experiment is that maybe this led array doesn't have the optimum combination of red/blue/green led's.
For instance you could have more blue led's that would produce less stretch.
I understand that certain combinations of red blue green led's are patented for this reason.
BTW - I emailed the Chinese company that manufactured this array that was mentioned in a previous post and this was the reply.
Dear Bazooka :
How are you ?
Thank you so much for your interest in our LED Grow light on alibaba. We are maufacturer of the High power LED, We are very professional in the heat solutions for the high power LED.We cooperated with the Agricultural university to developed several items of the LED grow Light, they have higher output 1W,2W,9W,15W,90W,300W.even higher, The temperature of the LED is just 50 degree, very nice heat solutions, I think this is very nice replacement for the traditional HID or Metal Halide lighting
Please kindly check the attached quotation for the led grow lights, if you need my further help, please feel free to contact me.
I am looking forward to your early reply
regards
Frank
-----------------------------------------------------------------
attachment
Picture item No. Description Size Color Power(w) Unit Price
BS-11 | LED Grow light | dia270x6 0mm | Red and blue(8:1 ) | 90W | US$468.18
Remark:
1, The price is base on the 500 pcs, if quantity is larger,we will
give you some discount.
2,Price Term: FOB SHENZHEN
3,Payment terms: T/T 100% before the shipment
4, MOQ: 50pcs
led's
Not that I am complaining (I check this thread almost daily) but the problem w/ this experiment is that maybe this led array doesn't have the optimum combination of red/blue/green led's.
For instance you could have more blue led's that would produce less stretch.
I understand that certain combinations of red blue green led's are patented for this reason.
BTW - I emailed the Chinese company that manufactured this array that was mentioned in a previous post and this was the reply.
Dear Bazooka :
How are you ?
Thank you so much for your interest in our LED Grow light on alibaba. We are maufacturer of the High power LED, We are very professional in the heat solutions for the high power LED.We cooperated with the Agricultural university to developed several items of the LED grow Light, they have higher output 1W,2W,9W,15W,90W,300W.even higher, The temperature of the LED is just 50 degree, very nice heat solutions, I think this is very nice replacement for the traditional HID or Metal Halide lighting
Please kindly check the attached quotation for the led grow lights, if you need my further help, please feel free to contact me.
I am looking forward to your early reply
regards
Frank
-----------------------------------------------------------------
attachment
Picture item No. Description Size Color Power(w) Unit Price
BS-11 | LED Grow light | dia270x6 0mm | Red and blue(8:1 ) | 90W | US$468.18
Remark:
1, The price is base on the 500 pcs, if quantity is larger,we will
give you some discount.
2,Price Term: FOB SHENZHEN
3,Payment terms: T/T 100% before the shipment
4, MOQ: 50pcs
Bazooka - You are right, we don't have optimal wavelengths. There are some ongoing tests seeking to determine the best combination, but that isn't part of this test. Can't do everything at once. Part of the reason to be missing certain wavelengths is that certain wavelength LEDs are much more expensive.
Wow, man, you got dissed by those Chinese. $468 if you buy 500 of them? They quoted me $409. And that genius Mr Celsius says he can get them free. I'd go with his deal. I wonder if you have to pay shipping and import duties on his deal.
Thanks reaperz and BigBlack for your comments. I'm gonna just let 'em grow. In my head I know that every variable you throw into a test decreases the reliability of the results. But my heart wants to get the most out of my girls. BTW, this mom is my own cross of BOG Lifesaver x Woodhorse Giant Trainwreck. If you let her go, she gets really big and will knock you on your ass.
Wow, man, you got dissed by those Chinese. $468 if you buy 500 of them? They quoted me $409. And that genius Mr Celsius says he can get them free. I'd go with his deal. I wonder if you have to pay shipping and import duties on his deal.
Thanks reaperz and BigBlack for your comments. I'm gonna just let 'em grow. In my head I know that every variable you throw into a test decreases the reliability of the results. But my heart wants to get the most out of my girls. BTW, this mom is my own cross of BOG Lifesaver x Woodhorse Giant Trainwreck. If you let her go, she gets really big and will knock you on your ass.
HuffAndPuff
Active member
Boerman,
Thanks, man. This is excellent through and through. Concept and execution are excellent! I am dying to see what the future holds. I wonder what vegging with one, flowering with the other, and vice-versa would reveal.
Yukon, spot on man, I love it. This man right here is absolutely the big winner.
Oh, and I, too, vote to keep the benchmark standard going. Do this one this way, and you and everyone else can mess with the technique dep't with more knowledge of the light's capabilities.
It might be a pain in the ass, but how would you feel about writing up a high-school Biology-esque lab report on this? ie: Objective, materials, hypothesis, method, this part would be observation and then finish it with your conclusion and possible revisions to your method that could make the objective better.
What is your prediction at this point, as to how things will progress? What strain is this? (I don't think I saw it, but I will re-read, so if it's in there, n/m) I'm guessing whatever it is, you've grown her out numerous times before now.
Thanks again, man. This is the kind of stuff that inspires me. Oh yeah, and the grow itself looks super. Cleanliness is next to Godliness in the garden of Weeden, IMHO.
Take care and Stay Safe,
HuffAndPuff
Thanks, man. This is excellent through and through. Concept and execution are excellent! I am dying to see what the future holds. I wonder what vegging with one, flowering with the other, and vice-versa would reveal.
Yukon, spot on man, I love it. This man right here is absolutely the big winner.
Oh, and I, too, vote to keep the benchmark standard going. Do this one this way, and you and everyone else can mess with the technique dep't with more knowledge of the light's capabilities.
It might be a pain in the ass, but how would you feel about writing up a high-school Biology-esque lab report on this? ie: Objective, materials, hypothesis, method, this part would be observation and then finish it with your conclusion and possible revisions to your method that could make the objective better.
What is your prediction at this point, as to how things will progress? What strain is this? (I don't think I saw it, but I will re-read, so if it's in there, n/m) I'm guessing whatever it is, you've grown her out numerous times before now.
Thanks again, man. This is the kind of stuff that inspires me. Oh yeah, and the grow itself looks super. Cleanliness is next to Godliness in the garden of Weeden, IMHO.
Take care and Stay Safe,
HuffAndPuff
Huff -
"BTW, this mom is my own cross of BOG Lifesaver x Woodhorse Giant Trainwreck"
You might have been typing when I posted that.
High school report. Not likely. I did that over 40 years ago. But I think you will get all the info you need. And if you like the book, just wait until the movie comes out at the end of the grow.
Predictions? So many things go into that. I've let her get away from me before and got 120g+ trimmed and dry. I started 12/12 much shorter this time, so they will yield less.
"BTW, this mom is my own cross of BOG Lifesaver x Woodhorse Giant Trainwreck"
You might have been typing when I posted that.
High school report. Not likely. I did that over 40 years ago. But I think you will get all the info you need. And if you like the book, just wait until the movie comes out at the end of the grow.
Predictions? So many things go into that. I've let her get away from me before and got 120g+ trimmed and dry. I started 12/12 much shorter this time, so they will yield less.
, i'll look foward to see'ing ifi guessed right(gonna write this down to remind myself of my guess)WTF - I don't really have a "connection" with HIDhut. I have bought a few things from them over the last few months and always found them to be reliable and very good to do business with. A number of ppl on this site have had good things to say about them and their customer service. It just so happens that a little while back I was talking with them about lights and they mentioned the LED lights that they would have soon. I expressed interest and they agreed to let me do one of the test grows. There are several others who also have early models of this array and are testing them. They have similar arrays with different wavelength combinations in the works and I have spoken with themabout testing them as well. That's the "we".
I was just kidding a bit with bazooka about the Chinese deal. Like him and many others, I checked out the link posted by Mr Celsius in his ridiculous statement that the LED array cost nothing. Since no price was quoted, I filled out their forms and asked for a quote. I didn't want to respond to Mr Celsius without being more informed. But then I decided that his statement wasn't even worthy of a response.
HIDhut didn't "give" this to me. I paid a reduced price, which is none of your business. It was a good deal for both of us. I consider it fortunate that I got this opportunity. But I don't owe HID Hut anything. If I find a better deal on Ebay or at another site, I'll take it. But I know that the best deal is not just price alone.
I jump in just about anyplace where I have something to say. A thread that mentions HID hut in the title catches my attention because I have experience with them. In many of the cases I am trying to help the person solve his problem but, yes, I will stick up for them because I have found them to be excellent to deal with. Any business that deals in electronic products is going to have some product failure. I happen to know that one of the two biggest satellite tv companies considers 2-3% failure rate to be acceptable. I think that is too high, myself. Even so, how many places on the internet can you spend a couple hundred bucks on a product, call them back a month later saying that it is defective, and they send you a replacement before you even send back the defective product?? I only know one. HID Hut. They did it for me and if you look at the complaint threads that you mentioned, they have done it for several others. That's customer service. I have 4 digital ballasts from them. One was a replacement for a failed one. So that means that I have had 5 ballasts from them, one failed. That is a 20% failure rate for me. Is it statistically significant? On a sample of only 5 I would say no. But Justin knows his overall failure rate. If it is 20%, or even 5% I would be screaming at my suppliers. But I am not going to fault him for something that may be out of his control. Especially when he provides such good customer service. BTW, he threw in a free bulb for my trouble.
My reaction had nothing to do with business skills or import experience. He made a statement that I had been sold a product that cost nothing. So obviously stupid that I did not respond at the time. Then in post #38 above he asked if I could quote him on that, which I did and he has yet to defend his original statement. No surprize since it is clearly indefensable.
The only thing I have ever imported is a bottle of rum I brought back from Austria once. I have no desire to become an importer in any way and whatever dubious savings I might get from importing a few LED arrays would never be worth the hassles involved in such an endeavor.
If you go back and read every comment I have made in this thread, you will see that I have been upfront in every aspect of this test grow. You and anyone else are welcome to point out any flaw in the design and execution of the test that will improve the results or any change that will make it better. Ultimately, my motives are somewhat selfish: I want to produce the best/most product with the least amount of cost and effort. I stated clearly that I hope the LED side proves to be a winner for the obvious benefits. But I am not going to lie to myself or anyone else about the results. What would be the point? Someone would just come along and prove the results false. Do I have a vested interest in sales by HID Hut? Absolutely not. At least not more than you and everybody else has. By that I mean this: the more lights they sell/ the better price they get on their purchases/ the lower the price for everybody. But I don't get anything from their sales. Would I take something free from them? Of course. Would it change anything I say about them or this test? Not one bit.
I think you meant that the LED plant looked stretchy. It does. The plant is stretching because it is trying to get something that it doesn't have enough of. Could be light intensity. Could be wavelength. Or both. I've seen this particular plant stretch quite a bit under HID before. Not always, but often. So it is not necessarily caused by the LED, but it probably is. That is one of the flaws of such a small sample size. If you had 100 clones growing under HID and 100 clones growing under LED, and 10% of them exhibited this amount of stretch, then you could say with more confidence that it is not caused by the light. Even then, you could be wrong, but your level of confidence would be much higher than with just one plant on either side.
I am assuming that the stretch is related to the LED. That could also be wrong. We come into the test with ideas and presumptions based on past tests and experiences. One of the biggest of those is the notion that LEDs lack penetration. While that may be so, quality of light (better tuned wavelength) may offset the lack of quantity (intensity/penetration). This is why we do comparitive tests.
Like I have said before, I really don't care that one side or the other is taller or wider or denser. End production will tell me what I want to know from this test.
I am glad to hear that you are not having any stretch problems with your HID. But consider this: Suppose both sides end up producing the same amount. That is not an unreasonable assumption looking at them right now. And keep in mind that just bending the LED plant would probably improve the yield by 10% or so. Allow one week for a clone to root, 3 weeks veg(18/6) and 8 weeks flower(12/12). Not counting cloning, that is 1,050 hours of time on for the grow lights. I haven't familiarized myself with the electrical formulae, but I think that comes out to 420Kwh for the 400w HID and 86.1Kwh for the 82w LED per grow cycle. I trust that someone will correct me if I got the numbers wrong. If I read my last electricity bill right, I am paying about .11 per Kwh, so that would be about $46.20 per grow cycle to run the HID and $9.50 for the LED. You'd get four cycles a year with a couple of weeks off for the holidays. So, you'd be paying about $184.80 for the HID and $38 for the LED, or a difference of $146.50. A lot of people change their bulbs every six months, but suppose you go a year on yours. $25 a year for HID bulbs. The LED should have a service life of at least 3 years. So, say you got a pretty good deal on your HID light, $250 for the whole setup including the bulb. In three years you got $250 for the light, $50 for two new bulbs and $554.00 for electricity. Total: $854.40. For the LED, you would use $114 for electricity, allowing you to pay $742.40 for the LED array, just to break even. And that's not even including all the costs associated with dealing with the heat produced by the HID. I've spent almost $200 this summer just for additives for my hydro res because of heat issues.
If my numbers are correct, and I am not giving any guarantees on that, I think we are already at the point where LEDs are a viable option for grow lighting. There is still a lot of refining to be done. But two things are sure: The cost of these things is going down and the cost of energy is going up.
So, WTF, is there something you feel that I haven't answered completely and honestly? If not, then can we get back to the purpose of this thread?
B
I was just kidding a bit with bazooka about the Chinese deal. Like him and many others, I checked out the link posted by Mr Celsius in his ridiculous statement that the LED array cost nothing. Since no price was quoted, I filled out their forms and asked for a quote. I didn't want to respond to Mr Celsius without being more informed. But then I decided that his statement wasn't even worthy of a response.
HIDhut didn't "give" this to me. I paid a reduced price, which is none of your business. It was a good deal for both of us. I consider it fortunate that I got this opportunity. But I don't owe HID Hut anything. If I find a better deal on Ebay or at another site, I'll take it. But I know that the best deal is not just price alone.
I jump in just about anyplace where I have something to say. A thread that mentions HID hut in the title catches my attention because I have experience with them. In many of the cases I am trying to help the person solve his problem but, yes, I will stick up for them because I have found them to be excellent to deal with. Any business that deals in electronic products is going to have some product failure. I happen to know that one of the two biggest satellite tv companies considers 2-3% failure rate to be acceptable. I think that is too high, myself. Even so, how many places on the internet can you spend a couple hundred bucks on a product, call them back a month later saying that it is defective, and they send you a replacement before you even send back the defective product?? I only know one. HID Hut. They did it for me and if you look at the complaint threads that you mentioned, they have done it for several others. That's customer service. I have 4 digital ballasts from them. One was a replacement for a failed one. So that means that I have had 5 ballasts from them, one failed. That is a 20% failure rate for me. Is it statistically significant? On a sample of only 5 I would say no. But Justin knows his overall failure rate. If it is 20%, or even 5% I would be screaming at my suppliers. But I am not going to fault him for something that may be out of his control. Especially when he provides such good customer service. BTW, he threw in a free bulb for my trouble.
My reaction had nothing to do with business skills or import experience. He made a statement that I had been sold a product that cost nothing. So obviously stupid that I did not respond at the time. Then in post #38 above he asked if I could quote him on that, which I did and he has yet to defend his original statement. No surprize since it is clearly indefensable.
The only thing I have ever imported is a bottle of rum I brought back from Austria once. I have no desire to become an importer in any way and whatever dubious savings I might get from importing a few LED arrays would never be worth the hassles involved in such an endeavor.
If you go back and read every comment I have made in this thread, you will see that I have been upfront in every aspect of this test grow. You and anyone else are welcome to point out any flaw in the design and execution of the test that will improve the results or any change that will make it better. Ultimately, my motives are somewhat selfish: I want to produce the best/most product with the least amount of cost and effort. I stated clearly that I hope the LED side proves to be a winner for the obvious benefits. But I am not going to lie to myself or anyone else about the results. What would be the point? Someone would just come along and prove the results false. Do I have a vested interest in sales by HID Hut? Absolutely not. At least not more than you and everybody else has. By that I mean this: the more lights they sell/ the better price they get on their purchases/ the lower the price for everybody. But I don't get anything from their sales. Would I take something free from them? Of course. Would it change anything I say about them or this test? Not one bit.
I think you meant that the LED plant looked stretchy. It does. The plant is stretching because it is trying to get something that it doesn't have enough of. Could be light intensity. Could be wavelength. Or both. I've seen this particular plant stretch quite a bit under HID before. Not always, but often. So it is not necessarily caused by the LED, but it probably is. That is one of the flaws of such a small sample size. If you had 100 clones growing under HID and 100 clones growing under LED, and 10% of them exhibited this amount of stretch, then you could say with more confidence that it is not caused by the light. Even then, you could be wrong, but your level of confidence would be much higher than with just one plant on either side.
I am assuming that the stretch is related to the LED. That could also be wrong. We come into the test with ideas and presumptions based on past tests and experiences. One of the biggest of those is the notion that LEDs lack penetration. While that may be so, quality of light (better tuned wavelength) may offset the lack of quantity (intensity/penetration). This is why we do comparitive tests.
Like I have said before, I really don't care that one side or the other is taller or wider or denser. End production will tell me what I want to know from this test.
I am glad to hear that you are not having any stretch problems with your HID. But consider this: Suppose both sides end up producing the same amount. That is not an unreasonable assumption looking at them right now. And keep in mind that just bending the LED plant would probably improve the yield by 10% or so. Allow one week for a clone to root, 3 weeks veg(18/6) and 8 weeks flower(12/12). Not counting cloning, that is 1,050 hours of time on for the grow lights. I haven't familiarized myself with the electrical formulae, but I think that comes out to 420Kwh for the 400w HID and 86.1Kwh for the 82w LED per grow cycle. I trust that someone will correct me if I got the numbers wrong. If I read my last electricity bill right, I am paying about .11 per Kwh, so that would be about $46.20 per grow cycle to run the HID and $9.50 for the LED. You'd get four cycles a year with a couple of weeks off for the holidays. So, you'd be paying about $184.80 for the HID and $38 for the LED, or a difference of $146.50. A lot of people change their bulbs every six months, but suppose you go a year on yours. $25 a year for HID bulbs. The LED should have a service life of at least 3 years. So, say you got a pretty good deal on your HID light, $250 for the whole setup including the bulb. In three years you got $250 for the light, $50 for two new bulbs and $554.00 for electricity. Total: $854.40. For the LED, you would use $114 for electricity, allowing you to pay $742.40 for the LED array, just to break even. And that's not even including all the costs associated with dealing with the heat produced by the HID. I've spent almost $200 this summer just for additives for my hydro res because of heat issues.
If my numbers are correct, and I am not giving any guarantees on that, I think we are already at the point where LEDs are a viable option for grow lighting. There is still a lot of refining to be done. But two things are sure: The cost of these things is going down and the cost of energy is going up.
So, WTF, is there something you feel that I haven't answered completely and honestly? If not, then can we get back to the purpose of this thread?
B
bazooka said:
bazooka - I really don't have a connection. I just got lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. I was talking on the phone with Justin when I mentioned the progress in LED lighting. He told me that he was going to have some in soon and was going to have about 10 of them that he was going to let out for test purposes. He wasn't giving them away, believe me. At least not to me. But I told him that I wanted to be one of those who got to test the lights and I described how I wanted the test to go. He liked what I was going to do, especially the time lapse video. There is no doubt that posting that video on Youtube will fire sales. But I haven't asked for anything from sales and he hasn't offered. He runs a straightup business and gives great customer service. I hope he makes a million bux on these things. Then maybe if he does, I WILL get a free light.............or at least a keychain. lol
All this bullshit the last couple of days is exactly why I didn't want to start this thread in the first place. But as I saw how well the LED was performing, I thought "man, people gotta see this!" Here I am trying to help add to the knowledge base of this community and I don't need to be having to deal with smartass remarks and people questioning my integrity. Not talking about you, bazooka. I've never met Justin, but I have talked with him on the phone maybe a dozen times or more in the last year. He's always the one who answers the phone when I call. When you deal with the same person over and over again, you develop somewhat of a friendship. Sometimes that gets you a better deal than you might have gotten the first time you dealt with them. A smart businessman recognizes the value of repeat business. They spend a lot of money getting people in the door. It's a lot easier getting them to come back again if you treat them well while they are there.
Yes, I am a loyal customer. Not just for HID hut, but for a number of businesses. If they treat me right, I come back. And I tell other people, too. And, bubba, if they treat me wrong, I tell other people about that, too.
Thanks for your confidence, bazooka. I'm trying to run a clean test here for everybody. I am still tempted to bend her over. The LED side is now about a foot taller than the HID side. If she doesn't stop stretching, I will run out of head room. I can make the arguement for bending her over, but I still think the strongest arguement is to let her go.
B
Dude... what?
Ok... where to start... I posted that original post showing you that HIDHUT was ripping you off by selling you a cheap Chinese light that cost "nothing" <- as in a very low price. Sorry I didn't use exact words but anyone who a simple grasp of the English language would understand what I meant... you took it from there bud and you still are.
W/E, I'm done with this thread, sorry I cluttered it. I'm gonna delete all my other posts; despite not having done anything wrong and only responding to your statements.
Ok... where to start... I posted that original post showing you that HIDHUT was ripping you off by selling you a cheap Chinese light that cost "nothing" <- as in a very low price. Sorry I didn't use exact words but anyone who a simple grasp of the English language would understand what I meant... you took it from there bud and you still are.
W/E, I'm done with this thread, sorry I cluttered it. I'm gonna delete all my other posts; despite not having done anything wrong and only responding to your statements.
