LED FAQ) Building and DIY

[Panacanna]

par watts is the electrical watts x eff % and then also i take away 10% for reflector losses
so
(229 x .6401) x 0.9= 131.92461 par watts(so thats 13 par watts per sq ft)

par watts(131.92461)/ (60cmx90cm/10000)= par watts per m2

par watts per m2 x 4.65(the conversion for par watts to ppf for the 3500k cree)= ppfd=852.01

Gotcha, thanks!

You're calculating for m2, while I was looking at the 2x2 = 4 sqft, less than 40% of that area.

Do you happen to know the PAR watt conversion factor for Vero18s?
I'm guessing roughly 4.0? I'm estimating PAR watts at about 40% of draw wattage, too, with MW drivers ... ?

 

[Dion]

Gotcha, thanks!

You're calculating for m2, while I was looking at the 2x2 = 4 sqft, less than 40% of that area.

Do you happen to know the PAR watt conversion factor for Vero18s?
I'm guessing roughly 4.0? I'm estimating PAR watts at about 40% of draw wattage, too, with MW drivers ... ?

depends on current and K temp

take a look at my albums i have a lot of this data screen shot already

 

[Panacanna]

Thanks a ton Dion!

 

[Uberknot]

Shameless Bump!

 

[Weedycracker]

without concern for cash and a 2x3 canopy im doing this:

option 1
10 cxb3590 3500K CD bin (2 rows of 5)
and im running them on a HLG-240H-C700 (i prefer the B version but thats just me)

that will be: 229 watts of 64% efficient light and give you a ppfd of around 850


A more realistic approach still very high end but better value would be
option 2
6 cxb3590 3500K CD bin( 1 per sq ft)
run on a HLG-240H-C1050

that will be:

213 watts of 61% efficeinct light and give you a ppfd of around 760

Now this second setup can fit 1 more cob on the driver so if you added a 6500K or whatver highest cold white K in the highest bin available DB etc (i only have data for the 5000K CD bin so thas what im going off)


option 3
that will be:
248 watts 61% eff and 850 ppfd


so in summation

I would go for option 2 or 3 myself-obvioulsy option 1 will get you the most street credit

option 2 has absolutely even canopy values

Hi Dion thanks very much for all this fantastic info you've provided on led tech I'd like to ask, if you were doing a set up for 240v, would it be the same way you'd go about it today and where would you source everything from, that you'd need to set it up?

 

[Dion]

Hi Dion thanks very much for all this fantastic info you've provided on led tech I'd like to ask, if you were doing a set up for 240v, would it be the same way you'd go about it today and where would you source everything from, that you'd need to set it up?

on 240v in that same space id probably use 2 of the ELG 150 1400B drivers with 3 cobs on each ( or elg 150 1050 with 4 depending on ur exact space and if i needed the extra watts) that is assuming option 1 os too expensive


id buy from jerry or cutter
drivers from mouser or jerry

 

[Weedycracker]

on 240v in that same space id probably use 2 of the ELG 150 1400B drivers with 3 cobs on each ( or elg 150 1050 with 4 depending on ur exact space and if i needed the extra watts) that is assuming option 1 os too expensive


id buy from jerry or cutter
drivers from mouser or jerry

Hi Dion, thank you for that, so I've went 7 of with these http://www.mouser.ie/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=ELG-150-C1400Bvirtualkey63430000virtualkey709-ELG150-C1400B and 21 of these http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2810 What would you recommend for a passive cooled heatsink with these? And could you tell me what wattage would these use and if you'd recommend lenses with these or not, I've read elsewhere on this forum about led tech where taking off the lens increases the lux but that was on retail leds, would a lens with these help or not with overall lux?

 

[Dion]

Hi Dion, thank you for that, so I've went 7 of with these http://www.mouser.ie/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=ELG-150-C1400Bvirtualkey63430000virtualkey709-ELG150-C1400B and 21 of these http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2810 What would you recommend for a passive cooled heatsink with these? And could you tell me what wattage would these use and if you'd recommend lenses with these or not, I've read elsewhere on this forum about led tech where taking off the lens increases the lux but that was on retail leds, would a lens with these help or not with overall lux?

cool

each driver+3 cob combo would be aprox 150w

what is your distance to canopy?

i assume u are not in a tent so reflectors will prob be good for you
seen as you are buying off cutter u can get the holders and reflectors there

also they have passive heatsinks now

perhaps even getting thier kits with heatsink and cob and thermal pad and stuff

http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2901

u could email and see about a discount or use CUTANDROLL at checkout for i thin k10% off

 

[Weedycracker]

cool

each driver+3 cob combo would be aprox 150w

what is your distance to canopy?

i assume u are not in a tent so reflectors will prob be good for you
seen as you are buying off cutter u can get the holders and reflectors there

also they have passive heatsinks now

perhaps even getting thier kits with heatsink and cob and thermal pad and stuff

http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2901

u could email and see about a discount or use CUTANDROLL at checkout for i thin k10% off

Hi Dion, yes no tent, what I've got is a large shed, the roof is slanted at its highest point it's about 7.5 feet tall and it's lowest point around 6.5 feet, width is 8.5 feet and length is 12.5 feet, it's a metal shed but what I have planned for it is to make 2 rooms one for flower and one for veg lining the inside with aeroboard, plywood and black and white poly throughout, with a 2.5 foot hallway between the rooms for access from the yard, obviously the veg room will be smaller than the flowering room, might be looking at somewhere about 8.5 x 6 for the flowering room, I won't be using all that space to flower of course but it will be nice to be able walk around because I've had to grow in cramped attics up until now.
Eventually I'll get around to installing a carbon filter, I'm in Ireland so the temperatures don't get very high here very often and the quieter I can keep things the better because of neighbors close by, When the winter comes round I can heat the rooms and ventilation will be installed by then, I'm starting from scratch, just started mixing organic soil today to be prepared for sprouting in 4 weeks, I've never made led fixtures before but it looks fairly easy to assemble so I have my work cut out for me from here until then. I'd just like to say to you, thank you so much for this and for the coupon it will save me a good few euros that can go on other little things that will be needed for this project. I think I went way above my head if those lights are pulling 1050 watts from the sockets, I'm looking to pull about half of that even 400 would be ok for the flowering room and maybe 100 - 150 for the veg, I'm really excited about the led technology I've heard people get 1.5-1.9 gpw from these lights so even if I can get 500 grams per run I'll be a very happy person.

 

[Dion]

Sure

U can also use 3 cobs in a colder k temp like 6500k on one elg 150

That will be an awesome veg light to cover at least 6sq ft

 

[jikko77]

cxb spectral power

cxb spectral power

hey led man

fooling on cutter site i've found a couple of nice pics.
maybe, posting them here, we can start a nice discussion and get something usefull, or at least i hope so.

the cxb does get some benefit from additional wave lenght led?

this is a spectral reading for the cxb3070 bd 5000°k, no idea if is real, no idea how they have got the data.

According to this:



the 5000°k got some uv output as well as ir 499-400/399-380 nm and 701-780 nm

if those data are for real we've already uv-b and a good ammount of far red into the cxb series.

what do you think?

 

[Dion]

hey led man

fooling on cutter site i've found a couple of nice pics.
maybe, posting them here, we can start a nice discussion and get something usefull, or at least i hope so.

the cxb does get some benefit from additional wave lenght led?

this is a spectral reading for the cxb3070 bd 5000°k, no idea if is real, no idea how they have got the data.

According to this:

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65534&pictureid=1609496&thumb=1]View Image[/url][URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65534&pictureid=1609497&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

the 5000°k got some uv output as well as ir 499-400/399-380 nm and 701-780 nm

if those data are for real we've already uv-b and a good ammount of far red into the cxb series.

what do you think?

so i was waiting to see if anybody else would start to discuss this with you but its been a while so figured id respond now

the cutter tests seem legit so id take thier data on thier word

now the uv seems in such a small amount that i doubt it really has any effect-ur thoughts?

while the far red is like 0.03%?

im not sure how much you would want of each but honestly ive been toying with the idea of a grow light using 4000k plus red monos for some time

what do u imagine would be the benifits of using 5000K in a growlamp based off the info above?

 

[jikko77]

now the uv seems in such a small amount that i doubt it really has any effect-ur thoughts?
while the far red is like 0.03%?
im not sure how much you would want of each but honestly ive been toying with the idea of a grow light using 4000k plus red monos for some time
what do u imagine would be the benifits of using 5000K in a growlamp based off the info above?

note: (?) identify something i don't know how to translate in english

actually i've no idea.
i've no idea what the % of ir/uv should be. i'd like to know.
there is a common practicese, for those who uses mh/hps bulb, to put in use the mh for the last two week of flowering to boost the resin gland, with a destroy and rebuild play. that's may explain why cmh user say their flower "taste" so good.

most of it can be found in the text i've forward you. here my personal understanding of the whole deal:

keeping in mind what i've wrote early, on top of that the uv, at least for the text i've found so far, seems to add: reduction in size of the whole plant, leaf less bigger and a better ratio leaf/flower, a better distribution of the carotenoidi(?), increase of thickness into the leaf foil, increase of the brightness of the pigment (maybe an increase in "light" capture), an increase of the presence of antociani(?) (another pigment) in the plant tissue.

regarding the far red/ir ecc ecc:
the pigment related to this is the fitocromo, it change, according to different external input from pr to pfr (the peak is about 660nm and 730 nm)
limit the strench of the hypocotyl; provoke the antocianine(?) action; expand the colitedoni(?); a photoperiodic controll in the flowering stage.

my idea is to uses some 3000°k and some 5000°k, each one has a strong point on a specific wavelenght (reds for the 3k and blu for the 5k), then add some for ir an uv. the idea is to get the more photon for each peak, with a very strong base for green and yellow. it has something to do with the discussion we had on k temp and cri.
i do think the best far red are multi wavelenght like the osram one, they report a range from 730 to 700/710 nm.
about the uv the reptil bulb, with low wattage and about 10% of the uv-b (should be something called desert something), cheaper than any uv led i've found so far.

indeed the ammount into the cree cob are very little, but is nice to know they have some.

note: i guess many are interested in this topic, but too little have the will to play and test, or even research.

the test i'd like to do is something on this line:
3x cxb 3070 ad 3000°K, drive at 1400mA, a couple of osram far red and a reptil bulb. 2 different pannel, one with ir and uv, same current; two difference space, clone from the same mother for both the pannel. pity i'm missing the space and the other pannel
and ofc a way to test.

 

[jikko77]

no one using led has something to say on this?
i don't belive it ...
come on diy'er and not ...

 

[Dion]

no one using led has something to say on this?
i don't belive it ...
come on diy'er and not ...

growmau5 is working on smth like this now

one side just 3500K cxb

the other side 3500K cxb plus some red monos(620-660 ect)

the other side 3500k plus IR

other side 3500K plus UVB reptile bulb


id like them all to have the same par watts- with a ppfd of 800 exactly

is that even possible?

i mean hypothetically the action spectra would pump up the ppfd dispite being the same par watts right?

eg 50% eff cxb x 130w + 20w of 50% eff 620-600= higher ppfd than 150w of 50% eff cxb?

 

[jikko77]

I know this:

each wavelenght has a different energy value, which means each have a different weigth. The photon energy is the energy carried by a single photon with a certain electromagnetic wavelength and frequency.

Color Wavelength
violet 380–450 nm
blue 450–495 nm
green 495–570 nm
yellow 570–590 nm
orange 590–620 nm
red 620–750 nm

Frequency
668–789 THz
606–668 THz
526–606 THz
508–526 THz
484–508 THz
400–484 THz

Photon energy
2.75–3.26 eV
2.50–2.75 eV
2.17–2.50 eV
2.10–2.17 eV
2.00–2.10 eV
1.65–2.00 eV

how this affect measurament is beyond me.

we know plant use a portion of light, PAR, UV an IR.
while calculating the par value of an emitter we need to know the spectrum.

Yield photon flux[edit]

Weighting factor for photosynthesis. The photon-weighted curve is for converting PPFD to YPF; the energy-weighted curve is for weighting PAR expressed in watts or joules.
PAR as described above does not distinguish between different wavelengths between 400 and 700 nm, and assumes that wavelengths outside this range have zero photosynthetic action. If the exact spectrum of the light is known, the photosynthetic photon flux density (PPFD) values in μmol/s can be modified by applying different weighting factor to different wavelengths. This results in a quantity called the yield photon flux (YPF).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation

one side just 3500K cxb
the other side 3500K cxb plus some red monos(620-660 ect)
the other side 3500k plus IR
other side 3500K plus UVB reptile bulb

all i write now is IMHO:

i'm looking forward to the next video, i'd like to know how is going.

but:
that red (620-660) are useless.
from 700 to 730 nm is where the real lack is. having a singler emitter to cover that range would be the best. but the question still, how much?

that's why, at least for me, a combo of 3000+5000°k is better proportion 2:1. the "strong" red (3000) combined with the "strong" blue (5000) adding the lacking spectrum. which, imho, are uv (mostly b) and ir.

 

[Koondense]

Lots of food for thought.

I believe if part availability and most importantly finances wouldn't be a problem, all these things would be already thoroughly tested and reported in a nice review or a kind of paper.
I can do it of course, can anyone send me a light? LOL;-)

Keep the debate alive, it's an important topic to discuss. Thumbs up

 

[Dion]

I disagree that the 620-660 is useless it has in fact(from memory) the highest YFP or all spectrum

especially in the mcree curve(last one) we see that the relative quantum efficiency is highest from 600-645?

obviously u are talking about forcing other reactions from the plants(more resin/shorter flowering times)

im suggesting that a boost to that nm range will accomplish that and perhaps even more.... especially considering that both chlorophyl B has its secondary spike at 642 and A at 662


im looking at the data and the ppfd and also the wieghted spectrum graph
back to your original post question we see that the cxb lacks exactly from its peak around 600nm and drops suddenly until 700nm- hence im suggesting to boost that with monos


how is that useless?


@koondense
i mean hypothetically the action spectra would pump up the ppfd dispite being the same par watts right?

eg 50% eff cxb x 130w + 20w of 50% eff 620-600= higher ppfd than 150w of 50% eff cxb?

 

[Koondense]

I believe it first depends on a ppf measuring instrument, another thing is plant response.
In theory the 600-620 still goes in the par range so most sensors probably wouldn't measure a difference.

Good night

 

[jikko77]

that's the cxb 3070 at different k° and cri:



hold on, is useless dedicate a mono for that red, the 600-660nm are well covered by the cob. imho.
i meant this when i said useless.
what we should play with are the 700-730 nm and the uv-a and uv-b.

look at the 3000°k 90 cri, a little early than 600nm and a little after the 660 nm the spectral power is still equal or higher than 60%, which is higher than a 3000°k 80 cri and way more higher than a 4000àk, and i do think even than a 3500°k.

i'll say again, imho, with a 3000° and a 5000°k you've the PAR well covered, on both the external pick, red and blue, what is lacking, according to the graph is a boost on the 730-680 nm and 450-380 nm, where i see a spectral power lower than 60%.
my point is to get the all the spectrum needed covered, not increase a pick value.