LED and BUD QUALITY

[snakedope]

This has all been explained to you back then in the other thread

LED puts out way more light than HID

You replace 600W HPS SE (900umol max) with 750W LED (!) which is actually designed to replace a 1000W HPS DE.

Puts out more light ? really ? a 40 LM diode ? are you sure ?
I think u are mixing things, you talk about the light LED puts out comparing to HID, which is right, LED is how much ? 220 LM for 1w, and HID is 130 LM for 1w, but that still dont change the fact the you have a 40 LM diode lol what are you not understanding ?
LM is the whole PAR energy you have, you call LM PPFD when you measure it in the 2nd time on a space, but its still LM ! PAR is total energy in 400-700, LM is total energy in 300-800, because most lights dont make so much photons in the 300-400 as it is, LM is 400-700 also roughly.

Now answer me with all honesty, how does a diode that puts out 40 LM is stronger then a 70\150\250\400w HID light source ?
Its only stronger when you put 300 together, or 3840 like delta, but again and again and again, all you did was spread the lamps ! you cannot put 300 diodes at the same place, so adding and totaling diodes is not science, its bro science to max.

Now you sound like that consipracy people - you just are fearing what you don't know. Sorry if I do not take you serious anymore - will leave thr thread.
I smoke twice long as you , if this is a argument for you.
And what you are writing just shows that you have no idea how physics , chemics or technic works in real life. Sorry...
Believe me or not - I know what I am talking about and can also prove it on a scientific way.

Microwave reasearch...

Sorry if i dont take you serious also my friend, you have not posted a single argument or opinion on this thread, just talk, no cigar
So i have no problem with you, you can smoke 3 times as me, i dont understand what is your big ego has to do with anything, but if it gets u going who am i to stop you

I sure you have an idea how everything works, thats why this thread is full of your educated posts full of knowledge come on bro...
I believe you, and still waiting ever since i called what you say BS, and still got no response
Still waiting, im here, hello ?

 

[Cerathule]

LM is total energy in 300-800

No, Lumen is weighted completely different it factors green (550nm) much more in than blue or red:

But photosynthesis is based on quanta of photons. It doesn't matter (bluntly speaking) if a blue, green or red (*and darkred) photon gets captured by chlorophyll - because either has enough energy to do photochemical work.

The surplus energy simply gets dissipated as heat by (mostly) carotenoids:

This is why credible lighting manufacturers send in their (best-bin) lamp to a light-lab to measure the total photon-output in an Ulbricht-integration sphere.
They then give you PPF - photosynthetic photon flux 400-700nm in umol/s.
PPE - system efficacy - how many of these umols released per watts or joule used.
and good datasheets also contain the radiant flux - the energy content of the light released.

This is not perfect or complete, because it may skip some important wavelengths - outside of PAR, because plants can do photosynthesis with photons outside of PAR, too. Hence, there are calls for a broader standard (ePAR) or "Photo-Biologically-Active-Radiation". And some manufacturers simply state the total photon flux.
This is why some HPS lamps rate 2100umol/s when they should be around 1700 - they been counting the photons in the Infra-Red up to 2500nm and beyond, too. But these photons cannot run photosynthesis - all they do is heat up the leaves... which, depending on your ambient temperature and genetics grown, may be a great asset to have. Or not at all....

 

[Cerathule]

Here in the upper chart you also see the differences between photon flux, irradiance and surplus energy of these wavelengths (sunlight), starting at 700nm, as that is the max absorption of a 'special pair' of chlorophyll (p700) at the core of photosystem I, that acts as charge separator and all the other chlorophyll-molecules of PSI funnel their excitation energy towards that trap.

So, a 700nm photon is the last photon to drive one light-reaction although the splitting of water in PSII needs, at least, a 680nm photon.
Then, there are some special darkred chlorophylls, these can actually capture photons up to 780nm but need to take "heat" energy out of the system to be able to do photochemical work.

 

[delta9nxs]

"i think someone is lying, and its not me or you, its the light mfgs."

Precisely! i built this light to experiment. to find out what is happening with leds.

first, everyone should agree on terms.

throughout the light industry, no matter what the market or intent, lumens are strictly a measurement of light at the source, the luminaire itself.

micromoles or umols. are strictly a measurement of plant available radiation at the TARGET.

no plant gets lumens and no light produces micromoles at the source.

Lumens Vs Micromoles | Surna

Lumens vs. Micromoles · Photon: A quanta, or particle, of light · Micromole: a way to measure the amount of a substance

surna.com

the manufacturer's language confuses this issue as most will have a statement somewhere that says their light produces x amount of umols of flow.

without stating the distance to the target required to get the reading.

umols without distance = meaningless

these terms are not the same and are not interchangeable.

here is a typical spectral distribution chart showing household-type led bulbs. notice that these bulbs have some uv and far red from the factory.

in the hemp facility we used 4000k bulbs.

my light is 50/50 2700k and 5000k. if you were to superimpose the two you will see the combined spectra.

the next pic shows what 1500 umols of flow at 26" looks like from the side perspective. a lot of air in between the plants and the light.

then a couple at day 9 of flower just to show the health.

then a link to the new fohse A3i; a badass motherfucker.

Fohse A3i 1500W LED

The power of the A3i starts with thousands of diodes from industry leading diode manufacturers. An A3i system will require half the number of fixtures to produce the same amount of light as an HPS system. In other words, the coverage of one A3i will still produce more light than two 1000W DE...

monstergardens.com

it cost me about 500 usd to build mine.

all that air does some remarkable things. the distance and the beam crossing create crazy diffusion and elimination of shade.

it also allows the leaf temp to run significantly cooler than the air temp.

i have 3 fans in this room running 24/7 so there are no hot spots on the ceiling or walls. (infrared thermometer)

i just measured temps before lights out and had a 84f air temp with a 79f leaf temp.

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

Damn, @delta9nxs that Beast looks like "The Mothership" from a P-Funk show!!!

 

[Ca++]

no plant gets lumens and no light produces micromoles at the source.

The only useful measure of what a light gives off is umol.
You can talk illumination in lumen meters if you want. But any use of lumens is for people not plants.

They are different measurement systems.
What you are saying, is as you pull out your tape measure, it starts in inches and ends in meters. You are switching measurement systems.


Take a lights ppf and spread it over a meter to give ppf/d. The number doesn't even change. The relationship requires no conversion. It's elegant. You take a 727ppf lamp, put it over a meter, gives you 727ppfd. This is how a commercial grow is designed. You know what ppfd you want, so buy the lights that do it. It couldn't be easier

 

[Ca++]

First..

Were you too high or drunk when you wrote that? I can barely understand what you’re trying to say.

Your post has nothing to do with the topic which is leds and bud quality.
..so my reply to you is off topic too. But lets hope if someone reads this, that they atleast get a laugh out of it ,cause you’re such a turkey.

::

“They are your numbers repeated over years of posting.”

Maybe i moved to another country since the first led-post i made!? How would you know, did you ask?

When i wrote about 20% RH in my apartment- not my grow tent and cab - i was talking about the winter times over here, asshole. Now it’s late summer over here and around 23c outside today. F U

:::

WITHHOLD

” refuse to give (something that is due to or is desired by another).”

It’s a difficult word for you, ay?

Obviously, since you pretend to know the environment in my bloom tent – i don’t have a grow room as you wrongly claimed ..again – i haven’t withheld anyone my temp and RH% numbers then, have i??! Idiot.

Here’s the latest for you, two-bit: 27c-28c and 65-70% RH yesterday in my bloom tent. Why would i refuse to tell people that info? And i can’t remember anyone ever asking me.

And since i don’t own a ppfd meter and so i don’t know the numbers, obviously i’m not ‘withholding’ the information from you ..you f-ing idiot.

...see how silly you are? You can’t even use the word ‘withhold’ in the right context.

::::

Since you know i couldn’t tell people my ppfd numbers, you should then also know the reason why i refuse to buy a ppfd meter. = I can’t raise the cobs in my tent and veg cab any higher and i already can’t use as much power as i’d want to - knowing the ppfd reading isn’t gonna change anything for me. What am i gonna use the meter for?
I’m not gonna buy a ppfd meter only because some two-bit on ICMAG wants to know the reading. F U

:::

I stopped reading your post when you started claiming i have 30% RH in my tent..

Since you know i use a timer on my exhaust to control the temps and RH in my tent a smarter person than you should be able to conclude i have taken temps and the RH% into account. Understand what i mean? You didn't teach me anything new. F U

See how f-ing silly you are? You’re so ignorant and arrogant that it’s funny. What a silly person you are.

:::

“Hot photons” ... You just made that up, didn’t you. PM me the post where i supposedly used that term.

If photons aren’t heat-carriers why do you think it gets warmer during day time and colder during the night?

So, half a dozen idiots on ICMAG + you don’t understand that the photons out of the Sun actually warm up the atmosphere!! Hah-hah ..You’re such simpletons, the lot of you. The Magnificent Seven!

Go read the led diffuser-thread again for what i said about photons. I’m not gonna repeat it here and i got nothing more to add.

:::

Since you didn’t want to reply to me when i asked HAVE YOU PERSONALLY GROWN PLANTS SIDE BY SIDE IN COCO/HYDRO VS. SOIL

..i gather that you haven’t. Let’s continue the convo when you have, kid.



Stop with the false claims about me. That's not too cool. PM me if you want to continue this stupidity.

The topic of this thread is leds and bud quality.

F OFF, two-bit

Sorry for the quick reply, but having only read a couple of lines, I know nobody else is interested either.
You are giving your take on the topic, and won't accept any guidance. Okay.

 

[delta9nxs]

@Ca++ you have just demonstrated that you did not understand my post.

i agree that lumens are for humans and par is for plants.

go back and read the surna paper where they state that umols are a measure of light for plants at the point where the photons pass through the target, not at the light.

• "Micromole: a way to measure the amount of a substance, or in this case the number of photons passing through a target area, one micromole of light equals just over 62 quadrillion photons".

if a manufacturer has a light that they claim produces 1500 umols but they don't state the range what are they talking about?

the amount of light that is measured at the source or the amount that is measured at the target? or somewhere in between?

you measure the radiation hitting a plant by measuring at the plant, not the source.

"

 

[delta9nxs]

so, just for the halibut, i took a picture of a single 1550 lumen bulb that produces 1500 umols of light.

here it is, the only light you'll ever need.

it does indeed produce 1500 umols of light flow. at 1".

 

[Ca++]

I don't know who surna are, but they are misguiding you.

Do Samsung, makers of the most popular grow LEDs on the market, talk of output in lumens? At all?
Do they in fact talk of output in umol as I do.

I'm not misunderstanding anything.

 

[Cerathule]

no plant gets lumens and no light produces micromoles at the source.

the manufacturer's language confuses this issue as most will have a statement somewhere that says their light produces x amount of umols of flow.

without stating the distance to the target required to get the reading.

umols without distance = meaningless

these terms are not the same and are not interchangeable.

These statements are wrong, you seem to be confused about the intention of what LED manufacturers tell you and also, what "mol" actually is.

Mole (unit) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If I have two 600W LED lamps - different brands - and
(1) has a PPF = 1500umol/s but
(2) PPF = 1650umol/s
then this tells you (2) has better diodes. And a better system efficacy (PPE).

How much PPFD these lamps give at a specific distance is dependant on a number of factors like beam angle.

A lot of PPFD plots can be gimped as well, they are nowhere near as precise an a measurement in an Ulbricht-sphere. SANlight's and Bloomtech's plots differ for the very same lamp, footprint & distance (by 50% at the corners) due to, presumably, different reflective walls.

if a manufacturer has a light that they claim produces 1500 umols but they don't state the range what are they talking about?

It's up to you to set the distance in response to your aimed footprint.
This, and how much PPFD your plants should receive, are unknown variables to the manufacturer. You could grow lettuce. That would need way other DLI.

And a ppfd-chart doesn't invalidate the other data given in the lamp's sheet.

Are you seriously suggesting a lamp manufacturer pays an independant light lab to get this measurement and it's worth nothing? Because they - all of them - have a misunderstanding and they don't know what they are doing?

 

[Cerathule]

it does indeed produce 1500 umols of light flow. at 1".

First, you need to get the measurement units right or it's just confusing to the reader

About PAR, PPF, And PPFD

If you're shopping for horticulture grow lights, you may have seen the terms watts, lumens, LUX, foot candles, PAR, PPF, PPFD, and photon efficiency.

fluence.science

PPFD is umol/m^2/s which can also be written as umol/m^2s as s=1 so it's the same in the way the quantum meter shows the number.

As you can see from the unit it contains squaremeter. Thus, your device tells you that the measured photonflux registered by the sensor equates 1500 micromoles of photons that pass an area of 1 squaremeter each second.
But that isn't true in the above case since the spread of your lamp at that distance doesn't create such a footprint at all.

 

[Snipp]

First, you need to get the measurement units right or it's just confusing to the reader

About PAR, PPF, And PPFD

If you're shopping for horticulture grow lights, you may have seen the terms watts, lumens, LUX, foot candles, PAR, PPF, PPFD, and photon efficiency.

fluence.science

PPFD is umol/m^2/s which can also be written as umol/m^2s as s=1 so it's the same in the way the quantum meter shows the number.

As you can see from the unit it contains squaremeter. Thus, your device tells you that the measured photonflux registered by the sensor equates 1500 micromoles of photons that pass an area of 1 squaremeter each second.
But that isn't true in the above case since the spread of your lamp at that distance doesn't create such a footprint at all.

Dear all - I don't think he will understand it. But yes, @snakedope - the last posts are containing real facts. About the same as I would day. If you speak german I can post links to some stuff I posted about this. I have a whole collection off single and combined led chips in all spectrums, build my own light. Had lights for germination for veg for early and late flowering , you can also reveg better with the adeqaze light.
A plant is a phytochemical factory , you just need to push the right buttons and you can control it.

 

[Ca++]

Lets rewrite this story of light, in our terms.

I don't see any argument about photons being particles of light. I hope we can accept them being about the same size. Leaving us wanting to count how many a lamp produces. That seems a good idea. Lets count them.
Lets say my lamp makes 10 photons. However it is still turned on, so as you start to count, there are now more than 10. It keeps making them. So we need to talk about how many the lamp can make, in a certain time. Can we call it photons per second. 10 photons per second, could be written something like 10 photons/s. Though if we all agree it's per second, there is little need to keep writing /s all the time.

That's about all we can say about a lamp. If we want to talk in terms that apply to them all.

Now lets look at surface illumination. It's photons again, that need counting. The question of sample size comes forward. Just how big an area do I measure, in order to count them within, and share my result. We must all talk about the same sample space. Again, counting for a length of time. Our second.
Why not count them over a meter. It's okay if you can only count them over half a meter, you can just double it to get meter numbers. So we all sing the same song.
In fact, our light meters might have a window of 3mm or 13mm who knows. Each would catch a different number of photons, based on it's size. Our meters must also do the math to see what they would of counted over a whole meter.

We need these standards, to make comparisons. We are looking at the number of useful photons that would hit a meter, every second, to order to compare the photon density of different circumstances.

If my lamp made 10 photons, and my square foot in size light meter caught one, then we could say 10 photons per meter. Per second.


This is what happens. Our light makes the photons, and we measure how many fall in a specific space. It's a count of photons.

Forget all units for a moment, and just think about what we are trying to do. Measure what comes from lamps, and falls on surfaces. It's a photon count.

The unit's used are causing confusion, rather than the task. We are seeing people mixing up their units as they don't have the task clear in their minds.

We can't sit and count individual photons. If we could, this might actually be a lot easier. However, we must pick one system of photon counting, and stick with it from lamp to canopy.
If we measure in umol, it's just like counting them.

If you want to complicate things, you can talk lumens from a lamp, illuminating surfaces to a number of lux. Neither matter to a plant though.
If you want your head to explode, try talking lumens from a lamp, and convert that figure to umol before it hits. Keeping in mind the weighting differences are not a single sum, but pages of math.

I know some people like to hang on to their old units. Here more than anywhere I see people mixing ml into gallons, which are two different measuring systems. They are at least a linear conversion though, with 3800-4500ml per gallon being close enough for some. However, anyone trying that shit with lighting is going to fall flat. Anyone. Googles quantum computer would get a hard-on if it managed it.


We just need to know about useful photon numbers, at source and on surface. We only need use one unit. To count them.
Pick your measurement system and stay with it.



What muddied the waters for me at first, was the many terms used interchangeably. The time base of 1 second seems so obvious, but only once you know/s. Then the meter, as it's modern science. Basic stuff to get us all measuring the same thing. But if you don't know, it's alien. Then we have the concept of PPF we talk about, meaning total light from our lights. While PPF/D is light density some place. However neither are units. They are concepts. You can measure them, but in umol. So we constantly see conversations meander between the two. Some readers talking ppf and other umol, but it's the same thing. A measurement of the concept. If you can't see the concept, GoTo line1

 

[Snipp]

@Ca++ too many numbers - this must be false.
Seriously, I agree to you. But some people cannot change their way of thinking. We have to accept that..
I put hours and days in researches on this themata.

 

[Brother Nature]

Change the LEDs you have for HIDs while theres still time my friend, you have no glue on your bud.

I just wanted to brighten up this weird troll thread, don't know why anyone is even argueing with you, you clearly have no knowledge of growing cannabis. I even presented you with a valid arguement for one of your points on the smell of HPS grown bud vs LED, yet you still just choose to troll. You checked out the speakers corner yet? You'd fit right in there, that'd be more your pace.

 

[Ca++]

It's the blind faith that bugs me @Snipp People hearing stories that make no sense to them. Then repeating them with a confirmational bias that isn't even theirs.

I think anyone that could use the numbers can find them. It's just keeping on task that matters. It's actually really simple isn't it. Complicated by most of what we read being wrong. Once you actual get to task with it though, you know what you need. The actual unit names loose meaning.

There was a post under the f-e handle where another term was used. I wish I could remember it. It was basically umol or ppf but there is a 3rd moniker that just sounded road man, not professor

 

[GoatCheese]

People hearing stories that make no sense to them. Then repeating them with a confirmational bias that isn't even theirs.

I think anyone that could use the numbers can find them. It's just keeping on task that matters. It's actually really simple isn't it. Complicated by most of what we read being wrong. Once you actual get to task with it though, you know what you need. The actual unit names loose meaning.

Rather funny coming from you.

..a two-bit who hasn’t grown a cut in coco and soil side-by-side lecturing a person who has. Well done turkey.

All your book-smart bullshit will also loose their meaning once you actually grow some plants. Try it.

Cannabis is 20+ million years old - how long have you been copy-n-pasting stuff off the internet?

GTFO

 

[Snipp]

I presume we all grow weed in a growers Forum. Or at least people who give answers have an idea of what they are talking about ....
But somehow here its apparently like explaining electricity - some will listen and at least understand the basics. Others will never believe as it cannot be seen by their eyes and make their own explanations that fit in their mindset.

 

[GoatCheese]

This is a thread about leds and bud quality.

Your boring convo about led/light terminology has fuck all to do with.

Can’t you make your own thread for that BS? ..i won’t join the conversation. Fucking boring.

Grow some plants and smoke some weed, bitches.