LED and BUD QUALITY

[WingzHauser]

it has been suggested that the light compensation point is around 200 umols. below this level of light, the plant part is a sink of energy, and above it a source of energy.

perhaps by merely keeping the light level above this point sub-canopy the rest of the plant receives more energy and produces more flower weight.

but, it occurred to me that if leaves sub-canopy are acting as a sink for energy it may be more efficient to just remove them rather than trying to light them above the compensation point.

How did the Led conversation go from "dim the lights" to "needs more lights overnight. Yet people are still dumping on calmag and flushing P deficient plants.

Something tells me the people who were dimming their lights yesterday don't have nutrition figured out enough to be adding more shit spectrum light.

 

[greyfader]

How did the Led conversation go from "dim the lights" to "needs more lights overnight. Yet people are still dumping on calmag and flushing P deficient plants.

Something tells me the people who were dimming their lights yesterday don't have nutrition figured out enough to be adding more shit spectrum light.

i never dim anything. i blast them right from the start because i want to drive the metabolic rate as hard as possible. if you are showing any nutrient displays under intense lighting you need a stronger feed.

the cannabis plant in the field is getting 45 moles of light a day at my latitude. we had 1600 acres under cultivation at one point at the cbd bioscience company i worked at.

for comparison, 1000 umols for 12 hours is 43.2 moles per day. small seedlings can withstand this level of light no problem if the other parameters are met.

 

[Loc Dog]

I chopped the KM reg yesterday 67 days for KM is fastest ever in my experience.


View attachment 18892074

Just bought it and 5 others, and all were infected with mold on arrival so had to toss.

 

[Charles Dankens]

Just bought it and 5 others, and all were infected with mold on arrival so had to toss.

Damn buds or cuts?

 

[Loc Dog]

Damn buds or cuts?

4 orders from different online west coast sellers, first 2 orders on verge of death from stem canker so they obviously knew they were crap. Second 2 were just starting to show, and knew what to look for. The kush ints is just starting to get twisted leave up top, so can not save it at this point. Just got something called lalstop k61, but think too late. Have been searching for months for reputable online clone sellers, but market seems to be scammers and incompetents. Lost over $1500 in top shelf genetics and a year to strainly seller sending spider mites from hell, that were immune to everything. At end left 2 no pest strips in 5 x 5 tent sealed for 3 days. Scoped a leaf and they were running around like they were on meth. So bad I have considered seeds, but now see they can have hlvd, pythium, and fusarium.

 

[Ca++]

How did the Led conversation go from "dim the lights" to "needs more lights overnight. Yet people are still dumping on calmag and flushing P deficient plants.

Something tells me the people who were dimming their lights yesterday don't have nutrition figured out enough to be adding more shit spectrum light

My post could be a history book. The big paragraph holds the only decent grow information. The rest holds little value, unless you like books.

Today we have universities publishing almost weekly papers. 30 years ago, people were amazed to see Ed's closet cultivator book. Many of us were growing when lights came from the local sports ground, and hydroponics was a thing NASA were experimenting with. When the internet came, the number of growers rocketed, but the average guy online isn't a professional.

Many people that struggle to keep up in the race, slow down and pace themselves, to at least finish. If you can't get your grow right, then lower light has always been a good recovery technique. Though 'recovery' is an area in the local hospital, it's at least getting better. With low light, comes low feed. There was a whole peer group of new growers that were happy with life in the slow lane. There still are people who don't want to win the race, and are quite happy to make little effort to just get a bit of something.
In balance, some growers are pounding the plants with high light, and feeding well over bottle recommendations. Finishing the race so quickly that other think they must of cheated.

LED entered our sphere when it was little more than a light on a CF Truncheon. The forward thinkers knew it was the future, but our efforts with it as it surpassed fluorescents were premature. They got bad press. Even when they got to equal HID, the bad press stuck, and the high price stopped people buying. It was only when LED got efficient, that people got them, but they still thought they might not be as good as their old HID.
What happened next, was the hobby growers in the slow lane bought LED and unintentionally had more light than they had ever seen before. The outcome was massive food inadequacies.

It was difficult to know what food inadequacies were effecting people, in an internet of different grow styles. Logically, many turned down their lights to find a level that meant the same food worked, that had always worked for them. Life in the slow lane got a bit chilly, and I'm happy to believe some did have Ca untake problems. Others might of increased chlorophyll production, so needed the Mg its centered around. Others needed more N, as plants will regulate growth around N availability. If we look at calmag, many are 5ca then 4n and 1.5mg. The average commercial feed bottles might be 100n and people in the slow lane were running half doses. There use of calmag was actually getting the N Ca Mg Fe back to bottle dose, leaving just P&K lower than their manufacturer intended. Many were then happy, as the main bottle had far too much P anyway, and K trials have doubted it's usefulness. Besides which, most growers are guided to use PK boost anyway. Inadvertently they where buying their main feed, but only using half. Then pulling the half back, using two other bottles. It sounds crazy in a way, but we know that doing this actually offer people a chance to make changes in the feeds balance, that a single bottle grower can't. Though perhaps it was more educational than productive.
Meanwhile, the fast lane growers had always run full strength feeds, and the new lights meant using more. A common figure was 40% more of their base feed. This is far away from the slow lane feeding scheme.
Some were unhappy to just use more of everything, so sort out the elements that LED seemed to need more of. Chasing deficiencies in the hope they could fix their feed. Again, calmag offered the N and Mg gain needed for increased growth, and Ca that calmag should. Though it's actually questionable if they needed it, though some growers would of.

At this point in time, the more sensible viewpoint, seems to be that our feeds are balanced to grow cannabis. The more we grow, the more we need. Though no single approach is ever going to cover all grows. As an example, I just switched between canna feeds, to one with twice the P. The result is P deficiency. No, that isn't a typo. Sometimes things just don't comply with our expectations.

 

[Loc Dog]

My post could be a history book. The big paragraph holds the only decent grow information. The rest holds little value, unless you like books.

Today we have universities publishing almost weekly papers. 30 years ago, people were amazed to see Ed's closet cultivator book. Many of us were growing when lights came from the local sports ground, and hydroponics was a thing NASA were experimenting with. When the internet came, the number of growers rocketed, but the average guy online isn't a professional.

Many people that struggle to keep up in the race, slow down and pace themselves, to at least finish. If you can't get your grow right, then lower light has always been a good recovery technique. Though 'recovery' is an area in the local hospital, it's at least getting better. With low light, comes low feed. There was a whole peer group of new growers that were happy with life in the slow lane. There still are people who don't want to win the race, and are quite happy to make little effort to just get a bit of something.
In balance, some growers are pounding the plants with high light, and feeding well over bottle recommendations. Finishing the race so quickly that other think they must of cheated.

LED entered our sphere when it was little more than a light on a CF Truncheon. The forward thinkers knew it was the future, but our efforts with it as it surpassed fluorescents were premature. They got bad press. Even when they got to equal HID, the bad press stuck, and the high price stopped people buying. It was only when LED got efficient, that people got them, but they still thought they might not be as good as their old HID.
What happened next, was the hobby growers in the slow lane bought LED and unintentionally had more light than they had ever seen before. The outcome was massive food inadequacies.

It was difficult to know what food inadequacies were effecting people, in an internet of different grow styles. Logically, many turned down their lights to find a level that meant the same food worked, that had always worked for them. Life in the slow lane got a bit chilly, and I'm happy to believe some did have Ca untake problems. Others might of increased chlorophyll production, so needed the Mg its centered around. Others needed more N, as plants will regulate growth around N availability. If we look at calmag, many are 5ca then 4n and 1.5mg. The average commercial feed bottles might be 100n and people in the slow lane were running half doses. There use of calmag was actually getting the N Ca Mg Fe back to bottle dose, leaving just P&K lower than their manufacturer intended. Many were then happy, as the main bottle had far too much P anyway, and K trials have doubted it's usefulness. Besides which, most growers are guided to use PK boost anyway. Inadvertently they where buying their main feed, but only using half. Then pulling the half back, using two other bottles. It sounds crazy in a way, but we know that doing this actually offer people a chance to make changes in the feeds balance, that a single bottle grower can't. Though perhaps it was more educational than productive.
Meanwhile, the fast lane growers had always run full strength feeds, and the new lights meant using more. A common figure was 40% more of their base feed. This is far away from the slow lane feeding scheme.
Some were unhappy to just use more of everything, so sort out the elements that LED seemed to need more of. Chasing deficiencies in the hope they could fix their feed. Again, calmag offered the N and Mg gain needed for increased growth, and Ca that calmag should. Though it's actually questionable if they needed it, though some growers would of.

At this point in time, the more sensible viewpoint, seems to be that our feeds are balanced to grow cannabis. The more we grow, the more we need. Though no single approach is ever going to cover all grows. As an example, I just switched between canna feeds, to one with twice the P. The result is P deficiency. No, that isn't a typo. Sometimes things just don't comply with our expectations.

I probably have first book ed ever wrote and first book on hydroponics, which had picture of toilet bowl with plant growing in it. First hydro was 92 think different auto with miracle grow fertilizer mixed like package said and no testing PH or PPM. Turned out like crap. Ruined a couple of grows when I first got vero 29 gen 7's from too much light. Did not know there was such a thing. When I got GG4 I was lucky to be told to feed lite. Over 650 PPM and turns out bad with poor spacing and much more trim work.

 

[Ca++]

4 orders from different online west coast sellers, first 2 orders on verge of death from stem canker so they obviously knew they were crap. Second 2 were just starting to show, and knew what to look for. The kush ints is just starting to get twisted leave up top, so can not save it at this point. Just got something called lalstop k61, but think too late. Have been searching for months for reputable online clone sellers, but market seems to be scammers and incompetents. Lost over $1500 in top shelf genetics and a year to strainly seller sending spider mites from hell, that were immune to everything. At end left 2 no pest strips in 5 x 5 tent sealed for 3 days. Scoped a leaf and they were running around like they were on meth. So bad I have considered seeds, but now see they can have hlvd, pythium, and fusarium.

The west coast is disease central, and sending it out to everyone else. It's difficult to map, but a number of labs pressing the idea you need their services, use west coast figures to show the severity of the problem.
The best thing to do, is cull the entire nations stock, and start again from Europe. Before some festering cookies causes a global disaster. However, we know the general attitude of 'mines better' won't be overcome, even by death.

There is really no difference between the US and EU seed standards. If either were better, UPS would soon level them up. The whole planet is just a purchase away. The apartheid could be your friend though. The truth is, you can keep that. We in the EU, really don't want it. The idea we might be open to cutting trading one day, scares me. Yes a seed can carry problems, but the chances are much lower. Yes we do get things come over to. However, we are not the west coast, or trading with them in the thousands each day. We have breeders in the EU with decades of history, and reputations to uphold. If you find a story of dudding, I wager it won't be from an EU grower.

I'm sure you won't disagree that everything you are getting should be sealed away with the nuclear waste. So why not jump ship. Leave the sour manderine zhoukinni topped cookies alone, and buy some critical mass seeds.

 

[Loc Dog]

The west coast is disease central, and sending it out to everyone else. It's difficult to map, but a number of labs pressing the idea you need their services, use west coast figures to show the severity of the problem.
The best thing to do, is cull the entire nations stock, and start again from Europe. Before some festering cookies causes a global disaster. However, we know the general attitude of 'mines better' won't be overcome, even by death.

There is really no difference between the US and EU seed standards. If either were better, UPS would soon level them up. The whole planet is just a purchase away. The apartheid could be your friend though. The truth is, you can keep that. We in the EU, really don't want it. The idea we might be open to cutting trading one day, scares me. Yes a seed can carry problems, but the chances are much lower. Yes we do get things come over to. However, we are not the west coast, or trading with them in the thousands each day. We have breeders in the EU with decades of history, and reputations to uphold. If you find a story of dudding, I wager it won't be from an EU grower.

I'm sure you won't disagree that everything you are getting should be sealed away with the nuclear waste. So why not jump ship. Leave the sour manderine zhoukinni topped cookies alone, and buy some critical mass seeds.

When in high school around 78, we were discussing how having it illegal was because of big tobacco and if they could profit it would allowed. Someone said did you ever see a tobacco seed, and they will make sure no one else can grow it. With greedy corporate scum in USA, I would bet corps/gov could be behind spreading disease. They probably already have GMO genetics immune to everything.

Read somewhere that gov spread fusarium or pythium to target large outdoor grows on west coast, many years ago.

Kicking myself in the ass for losing GG4 from spider mite infested clones. Even a bad run is better than the elites I grew over a year, infested with spider mites. At harvest the room had no smell and crap trichomes.

 

[Crooked8]

When in high school around 78, we were discussing how having it illegal was because of big tobacco and if they could profit it would allowed. Someone said did you ever see a tobacco seed, and they will make sure no one else can grow it. With greedy corporate scum in USA, I would bet corps/gov could be behind spreading disease. They probably already have GMO genetics immune to everything.

Read somewhere that gov spread fusarium or pythium to target large outdoor grows on west coast, many years ago.

Kicking myself in the ass for losing GG4 from spider mite infested clones. Even a bad run is better than the elites I grew over a year, infested with spider mites. At harvest the room had no smell and crap trichomes.

Shouldnt be too hard to find GG4 no?

 

[Loc Dog]

Shouldnt be too hard to find GG4 no?

Had it in last order of clones. 4 had visible mold an inch over the cube. GG4 and Tropic cherry had no signs. 3 days later GG4 started dying quickly from bottom up with stem canker caused by fusarium or pythium.

This is GG4, which is extremely mold resistant if real cut.

This is stalk of clone right after it arrived, not the GG4 which had no signs on stalk

 

[greyfader]

i spent 5 years in Oregon from 2013-2018. i began calling I-5 the Great Mite Way because there were probably more mites than people traveling up and down the highway on clones.

where i came from i only had spider mites and an occasional thrip indoors for many years.

in Oregon i had to deal with not only spider mites but also broad mites, hemp russet mites, and Japanese rice root aphids. also, every type of mold and fungus you can name.

it was like a bad horror movie.

then i went to Tennessee to work in the cbd industry and found people buying hundreds of thousands of clones for outdoor from the West Coast. of course, they were all infested with something.

i won't buy anything from the West Coast because there is no way you can provide large numbers of clones like that and assure the client they are pest free.

i do receive clones sometimes from small scale breeders that i know and trust. but not from the West Coast.

Colorado genetics are also off limits for me.

in Oregon i would buy clones in small quantities just to get the strain. right in front of the seller i would cut the roots off the clones, trim them to as little plant matter as is possible to root, and then put them in a container of Avid for the ride home.

i would not grow those for production but grow them out to take a set of clones from them to use for production.

 

[Hammerhead]

Who the hell are you getting cuts from?. It shouldn't be that hard to get a clean clone. It's not the West Coast it's the people you are doing business with. Ive been at this a long long time. Ive never had issues like others report. Ive never received or sent a clone that had a pathogen/disease.

 

[greyfader]

Who the hell are you getting cuts from?. It shouldn't be that hard to get a clean clone. It's not the West Coast it's the people you are doing business with. Ive been at this a long long time. Ive never had issues like others report. Ive never received or sent a clone that had a pathogen/disease.

if you are talking to me i never bought bulk clones from anyone. i was aware of others buying them in tennessee from well known bulk clone suppliers and the problems they had with them. i did get clean clones from friends in oregon but i also bought small quantities from dispensaries who were supplied by bulk clone operations.

Those were the ones i trimmed down and dipped.

my facility in oregon was in a large storage unit complex where half of the units were occupied by growers. i knew most of them and witnessed the horrors they went through.

my rooms were next door to a guy who had severe infestations of about every cannabis pest out there and i was separated from him by 2 layers of 5/8" drywall.

this was in eugene, or

 

[Hammerhead]

Not just you. People that blame the whole west coast for shitty clones is nonsense. Any legal operation shouldn't be in business if their clones are dirty.. Im 100% BM. I trust the people in BM way more than legal commercial lol.

Find people that still love growing and not solely for $$. I understand we all need to be recouping growing costs but sending dirty clones has to be the dumbest thing ever. Never do business with people you don't know or at least have visited there facility

 

[Loc Dog]

Who the hell are you getting cuts from?. It shouldn't be that hard to get a clean clone. It's not the West Coast it's the people you are doing business with. Ive been at this a long long time. Ive never had issues like others report. Ive never received or sent a clone that had a pathogen/disease.

Bens nursery on strainly sent the spider mites resistant to everything. Had them previously and easy to get rid of, since were from outdoors. Found out they were shipping the for over a year. Tried numerous products and everytime it seemed they were gone would come back even stronger. Before trashing all genetics, used 2 no pest strips in sealed 5 x 5 tent for 3 days and they were thriving.

Was sent this by Prestige Clones on Strainly. On verge of death when it arrived from stem canker. It was old clone and brutally topped to fit box and bottom 3 sets of leaves were removed since dead and they knew it was infected. No strainly grower guarantees anything past opening box.

Strainly is front for scammers. They have a BS checkout which does not process vendors offers, or if you order 10 clones, charged 10 times for shipping forcing you to contact vendor who says system is broken and sends invoice. Then when they send you trash and complain to strainly, they say you tried cheating them by not using checkout, touh crap, and not allowed to leave feedback. Finally found 430 pages of complaints about strainly padded with strainly trolls posting to bury the truth. Saw article on leafly about online clones suggesting strainly that said you do not have to check RIU or grasscity for reviews since strainly has their own.

Seed canary direct, not their vendors sent clones just as bad. 2 other vendors sent clones just starting to show stem canker from fusarium or pythium on arrival, but were not a-holes and gladly refunded money.

Most reputable I have seen, but a little pricey for someone with no income is pigtail gardens, who will replace plants that die within a month, with next order. I am in fascist state, so no way to try strains before paying for clones. Was hoping to get around 8, then narrow down to around 4.

Online clones are the new scammer mecca. Probably sending out infected clones since not really the genetics they say they are. Lost GG4, Chimera #3, MAC1, Fatso, and 6 others to the spider mites, never enjoying even one good bud

 

[Hammerhead]

Pest and molds are part of growing. If anyone doesn't have an IPM schedule in place you will end up with issues. No matter who you get a clone from always !!!! treat them and isolate them. Every clone Ive got was from a none commercial source. Wifi#43 was the only cut I thought could have had a pathogen and was culled. Ive never had Hplvd thank god. The health of our plants should be our top priority. If you are a commercial operation you better be testing often for HPLVD AND PESTS.

 

[Loc Dog]

That is the problem with online clone sellers. Most do not test. Those that do only test for HLVD. Less than 5% guarantee past 1 day. Have been searching for months, and even pigtail gardens who tests for hlvd and will replace plants that die within a month with next order, does not spend the $25 for fusarium test while selling clones starting at $200.

 

[Ca++]

That is the problem with online clone sellers. Most do not test. Those that do only test for HLVD. Less than 5% guarantee past 1 day. Have been searching for months, and even pigtail gardens who tests for hlvd and will replace plants that die within a month with next order, does not spend the $25 for fusarium test while selling clones starting at $200.

Tight fuckers. So many people want money, but won't invest. 200$ a cutting? Is it 4' and a week off finishing?
You should be selling cuttings. Move where you can have a fresh facility, with very separate zones, to start seeds and test regularly. It's only people who have disasters that seem to wise up, these days. At 200 a cut, you can run a whole suite of tests, every few days. That's the sort of assurity that makes me want to buy from someone, above all others. I really don't think it should be a unique selling point, as everyone should be doing it. However, if you can have such a USP, you are the man. Send copies of reports with all orders, so their is traceability in your claims. Paperwork people will value as much as the cuttings. More money spent on their cuttings, than they paid for the cuttings. That my friend, is not something that leaves a buyer feeling sore. Or thinking they could of paid $5 to a mate. Though again... would the average person want to pay for it? I guess they are paying without it though, so it's still a great bonus.

I think what cannabis needs, might be more regulation. Sending diseased plants by post, barely seems legal. Certainly from country to country, customs stop many products known to be carriers. As I cycle my bike from wood to wood, over fire breaks, I'm guided to wash my tyres. That's just crossing the road, between a few woods designated for cycling. How has the US not found this unacceptable


Edit: Just to recap, 90% of west coast facilities submitting samples, carry the plague in 30% of there stock.
That's not me talking about my garden, that's testing by a few labs, confirming which the industry already suspected. It's very real.

 

[Loc Dog]

Tight fuckers. So many people want money, but won't invest. 200$ a cutting? Is it 4' and a week off finishing?
You should be selling cuttings. Move where you can have a fresh facility, with very separate zones, to start seeds and test regularly. It's only people who have disasters that seem to wise up, these days. At 200 a cut, you can run a whole suite of tests, every few days. That's the sort of assurity that makes me want to buy from someone, above all others. I really don't think it should be a unique selling point, as everyone should be doing it. However, if you can have such a USP, you are the man. Send copies of reports with all orders, so their is traceability in your claims. Paperwork people will value as much as the cuttings. More money spent on their cuttings, than they paid for the cuttings. That my friend, is not something that leaves a buyer feeling sore. Or thinking they could of paid $5 to a mate. Though again... would the average person want to pay for it? I guess they are paying without it though, so it's still a great bonus.

I think what cannabis needs, might be more regulation. Sending diseased plants by post, barely seems legal. Certainly from country to country, customs stop many products known to be carriers. As I cycle my bike from wood to wood, over fire breaks, I'm guided to wash my tyres. That's just crossing the road, between a few woods designated for cycling. How has the US not found this unacceptable


Edit: Just to recap, 90% of west coast facilities submitting samples, carry the plague in 30% of there stock.
That's not me talking about my garden, that's testing by a few labs, confirming which the industry already suspected. It's very real.

I have thought about it after this nightmare, creating a reputable company with guarantee. I am great at doing the work. It is getting customers has always been my problem. Had every microsoft and all but one cisco certification that only 1200 people had in 2004, but not a salesperson or a people person. After paying for genetics, it is less than a dollar in rockwool, nutrients and electric for a clone, with a little work every few days controlling feed and humidity. That is just under 20,000% profit. in 1960's 20% was considered fair profit. Have seen clowns on Discord that want $1000 for 3 snips of some crosses they made, paid through crypto, and no accountability or track record.