LED and BUD QUALITY

[[Maschinenhaus]]

i, for one, would really like to see the build of a state-of-the-art, complete spectrum, 1500 watt light designed for a 5x5

That's 1520mm edge length and the equivalent of 2.31 square meters?

As I said, they are already available in the professional sector or commercial cultivation, but you need climate control and sensors with so much LED power, and probably also CO² if you want to push the limits.

The spectrum looks like this, you can change it via app or PC as you like. UV and IR are also switchable, then the lamp costs even more. Built in the original are probably Seoul Semiconductor SMD in the range of 6,500 Kelvin and Osram and Nichia extensions?

But no one knows exactly because they protect it from nosy Chinese.

Next Level

Their PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) value is up to 31.2μmol/s per COB and 1.7μmol/s per LED. At the same time, they emit a pleasant neutral white light with 4,000K and a CRI of over 97. It supports easy checking of plant health, is easy on the eyes and promotes a sense of well-being. The additional UV component of the LEDs stimulates the formation of active substances in medicinal plants as well as aroma and pigmentation.

 

[exploziv]

I don't even think you need that much power with good leds. 400-450W a sq meter is plenty. And then you could do it with nothing more than good ventilation and good feed/water regime. If you moving from hps to leds then it's even more important to go lower wattage till you start to have a feel for it, cause it's not the same. Some (if not most) of us still learn new stuff about led growing even after years of using them. Honestly I wouldn't even want a single led for that space, I had a 4x4 light in a 4x4 tent and it sucks. I would want it in at least 2 seperate pieces, as an added bonus then you could use it better even of a side of the canopy is higher in height.
It's not even hard to do a light nowdays, but with current prices for components and shipping costs.. a couple ready to buy lights will make most growers happy for that size of space. And might end cheaper. The real advantage with diy is u can customise it or repair it fast when it breaks. If you don't have the need for those advantages and the knowledge to build/repair it, maybe no need to diy it. Also, it would suck to build a 5 x 5 light and then find how awkward it is to use it, hang it, change height and so on! Start smaller! Think it better before planning!

 

[delta9nxs]

i didn't say "5x5 light", i said "5x5 space". i would expect the fixture itself to be approx 4x4.

i am currently using a 1680 watt diy light that produces 1500 umols at 30".

my light is made of screw in led bulbs and is not electrically efficient at 107 lumen per watt but it grows the hell out of weed.

i built it to experiment with high-intensity light.

but i'm building a facility and want to use state of the art diodes. or a close practical alternative.

 

[[Maschinenhaus]]

I don't even think you need that much power with good leds. 400-450W a sq meter is plenty.

These lamps are composed of individual, connected modules. In the professional segment, it is quite common to plan in a modular network.

I also see it that way, in DIY you have many more possibilities. So I have a possible system power under 600W divided into 4 modules that are all individually adjustable and dimmable.

i didn't say "5x5 light", i said "5x5 space". i would expect the fixture itself to be approx 4x4.

I understood you already I think? ;-)

These experiments I have behind me. 3,200W with COB LED on an area of 8 square meters, plants in 20 liter tubs and some in 40 liters, not many plants, but very large plants.

This was in a vaulted cellar with very high ceilings.

 

[delta9nxs]

of course, you understood, as you are an intelligent person.

i too, grow very large plants.

one of the reasons i want the high power capability is that i'm using an 8-hour photoperiod in flower.

with this high-intensity light, i can deliver 1500 umols at 76.2 cm or 30 " for 8 hours and achieve 43.2 moles per diurnal period.

the long (16 hour) dark period is producing a better terpene profile, i think.

also, i think there is a light intensity threshold beyond which i'm seeing enhanced flower weight.

the trichome production is outstanding.

 

[exploziv]

Still, a 4 x 4 light in a single piece is a monster and would be practical to have 2-4 smaller ones, that maybe can be connected for dimming, but besides easier usage and adjustement you also have advantage if any break, you still have the other ones working, as oposed to a big one with only one driver. Even if you plan on filling the whole ceiling and never move them, two 2 x 4 footprint lights would be easier to install than a 4 x 4 one. And when any break, you still have half of the wattage working and you only pay to replace the other half.

 

[Plookerkingjon]

I don't even think you need that much power with good leds. 400-450W a sq meter is plenty. And then you could do it with nothing more than good ventilation and good feed/water regime. If you moving from hps to leds then it's even more important to go lower wattage till you start to have a feel for it, cause it's not the same. Some (if not most) of us still learn new stuff about led growing even after years of using them. Honestly I wouldn't even want a single led for that space, I had a 4x4 light in a 4x4 tent and it sucks. I would want it in at least 2 seperate pieces, as an added bonus then you could use it better even of a side of the canopy is higher in height.
It's not even hard to do a light nowdays, but with current prices for components and shipping costs.. a couple ready to buy lights will make most growers happy for that size of space. And might end cheaper. The real advantage with diy is u can customise it or repair it fast when it breaks. If you don't have the need for those advantages and the knowledge to build/repair it, maybe no need to diy it. Also, it would suck to build a 5 x 5 light and then find how awkward it is to use it, hang it, change height and so on! Start smaller! Think it better before planning!

Kool

 

[chilliwilli]

of course, you understood, as you are an intelligent person.

i too, grow very large plants.

one of the reasons i want the high power capability is that i'm using an 8-hour photoperiod in flower.

with this high-intensity light, i can deliver 1500 umols at 76.2 cm or 30 " for 8 hours and achieve 43.2 moles per diurnal period.

the long (16 hour) dark period is producing a better terpene profile, i think.

also, i think there is a light intensity threshold beyond which i'm seeing enhanced flower weight.

the trichome production is outstanding.

How does that effect your yield? I could live with say 30% less if the quality increases significant.
Flowering periode should be shorter? @yesum got a significant reduction in flowertime with long flowering sativas by reducing the light hours.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

@[Maschinenhaus] I would be rather interested in an LED build thread on your DIY efforts. You've posted a lot of great info, thank you so much.

 

[[Maschinenhaus]]

@[Maschinenhaus] I would be rather interested in an LED build thread on your DIY efforts. You've posted a lot of great info, thank you so much.

Why not, the Citizen CLU048 1212 CRI80 4.000K COB killer low budget board is coming soon



I am a COB killer

 

[exploziv]

i didn't say "5x5 light", i said "5x5 space". i would expect the fixture itself to be approx 4x4.

i am currently using a 1680 watt diy light that produces 1500 umols at 30".

my light is made of screw in led bulbs and is not electrically efficient at 107 lumen per watt but it grows the hell out of weed.

i built it to experiment with high-intensity light.

but i'm building a facility and want to use state of the art diodes. or a close practical alternative.

If your facility is good size and it makes sense to pay someone for designing the units, I am sure would be easy to find someone to just tell them what diodes you want and what density/ size of panels, then you just need heatsinks and custom printed pcb (as easy as ordering a pizza nowdays) to suit them and their power/size, drivers and maybe some cheap smart protection circuit that dims them when hi temp is reached on the board/heatsink.

 

[[Maschinenhaus]]

If your facility is good size and it makes sense to pay someone for designing the units, I am sure would be easy to find someone to just tell them what diodes you want and what density/ size of panels, then you just need heatsinks and custom printed pcb (as easy as ordering a pizza nowdays) to suit them and their power/size, drivers and maybe some cheap smart protection circuit that dims them when hi temp is reached on the board/heatsink.

Cutter Australia

LEDtech in Germany

My secret tip, talk to Elia from CreScience in Munich, Germany!

@Douglas.Curtis -



The Ultimate Lighting Guide for Cannabis Cultivation

Horticulture-LED

Fluence research shows LED spectra and intensity can boost cannabis yield (UPDATED)

HortiCann opens with calls for collaboration on both standards and integration

Broad-spectrum LEDs have greatest impact on cannabis yield and plant quality,

 

[Greenheart]

Instead of the GE par38 bulbs I am going to go with the dicuno candelbra cab I built using a 63% red to blue ratio. I'll report back sometime in the next 4-6 months to let you know if I had any better success growing with them. It has been a year with GE and I feel like a real failure as a grower.

Mainly just a test run to see if I have any better luck with different LEDs. I've resorted to tomatoes at this point. I can't even get tomatoes to appear on the vines I grow with my current GE setup. I had them about 3ft tall and saw plenty of flowers just no fruit. 2:1 Bloom:Balanced spectrum.

I can't say it wasn't genetics, grower error, or other environmental factors on the results I posted earlier in thread. I can say I never struggled so much. My first run with no gardening experience was twisty cfls in a 3.5x3.5 foot shower stall using a space blanket, box fan, and miracle grow poison. My friend also first starting yielded much better but we called his retardent because you couldn't get it to burn. The group voted mine overall smoothest and best high. I used random bagseeds he had white widow clones.

Not trying to sound like I'm bragging because IC mag was my main source of input those early years and I read a lot of information here. Thanks SIMON and all who contributed with awesome Grow 101 stickies for dummies!

Rather saying, I have NEVER struggled so much as to when I shifted to modern LED. I was able to bloom something but not near what I was doing before my hiatus years ago. I will now avoid GE LED Grow bulbs like the next pandemic just out of my own experience. I doubt they are even worth the wattage to hang above plants in a window box. It'd probably make them sick. I know I wanted something safe but those bulbs are not it.

My opinion on quality cannabis? It isn't for sale. lmao

 

[Boob McNoob]

Trying to read this thread from the start in order to get a feel for the way this forum conducts itself but so far I'm only up to page three. It will be interesting to see if anyone is able to get the "Nakedpope" (Snakedope) to accept any viewpoint but his own. If he is still contributing here I hope my sarcastic nickname doesn't offend - it's only a gentle joke; more a jab at my failing eyesight than a character assassination of him as a contributor.

 

[Boob McNoob]

Kudos to the first "Yo Mama" joke I've seen on this thread

 

[Boob McNoob]

Ho lee Jeezus!

 

[Ibechillin]

i, for one, would really like to see the build of a state-of-the-art, complete spectrum, 1500 watt light designed for a 5x5

i didn't say "5x5 light", i said "5x5 space". i would expect the fixture itself to be approx 4x4.

i am currently using a 1680 watt diy light that produces 1500 umols at 30".

my light is made of screw in led bulbs and is not electrically efficient at 107 lumen per watt but it grows the hell out of weed.

i built it to experiment with high-intensity light.

but i'm building a facility and want to use state of the art diodes. or a close practical alternative.

of course, you understood, as you are an intelligent person.

i too, grow very large plants.

one of the reasons i want the high power capability is that i'm using an 8-hour photoperiod in flower.

with this high-intensity light, i can deliver 1500 umols at 76.2 cm or 30 " for 8 hours and achieve 43.2 moles per diurnal period.

the long (16 hour) dark period is producing a better terpene profile, i think.

also, i think there is a light intensity threshold beyond which i'm seeing enhanced flower weight.

the trichome production is outstanding.

 

[Ibechillin]

Under 1150w DE HPS highest yield Ive seen reported is 4.85 pounds per fixture from a 42 light room. 5x5 9 plants per light 2 week veg from cutting 600 PPFD 18/6 (Same 43.2 Moles per day as 1000 PPFD 12/12), no training, pruning or defoliation.

@delta9nxs Interesting your flowering only 8 hours lights on to still obtain 43.2 Moles per day, is that 1500 PPFD at most intense point or average across canopy 30" from fixture? Supplementing CO2? Do you mind sharing some of your yields per 5x5/fixture?

Its estimated without supplementing additional CO2 above atmospheric 400ppm 600 PPFD is the max rate of photosynthesis. Alot of evidence proving yields over 2 grams per watt achieved under just 600 PPFD across canopy 12/12 only 28.8 Moles per day.

I attached some screenshots from the grower responsible for the above DE HPS yields named Josh Neulinger. Also some info from jidoka (Sacredcowconsulting) on minimum par required to keep leaf active as well as some recent yields from DJM (Thelonetree) shared on November 6th/7th under Luxx 645w led fixtures.

 

[[Maschinenhaus]]

Its estimated without supplementing additional CO2 above atmospheric 400ppm 600 PPFD is the max rate of photosynthesis. Alot of evidence proving yields over 2 grams per watt achieved under just 600 PPFD across canopy 12/12 only 28.8 Moles per day.

Hemp behaves atypically for a C3 plant, there are researchers who see hemp as a C4 plant in photosynthesis. A value of 1,200 PPFD without additional CO² would be correct, some reported 1,500 PPFD that there is still a mass increase, albeit a small one. More recent research confirms the value of 1,200 PPFD.

Hemp only needs a very narrow, poor spectrum and, as we all know, grows under poor light conditions. However, hemp benefits greatly from a good light spectrum, the wider the spectrum the better! But most important is the intensity of each part of the spectrum, which CMH and plasma lamps already bring, this can be replicated with LED and then have similar results in quality. If the intensity is calculated correctly!

But for buds CMH and plasma still have the lead, no one knows yet why under LED the buds are so compact and hard even though the spectrum is almost identical to CMH and plasma? That's why I still use CMH for cultivation and breeding and only test with LED. Under modern CMH the end product is a dream.

That LED produce more THC or terpenes I think is partly true, but then it is not quite that simple. The values are sometimes so low single digits that you could include other factors.

The majority of photomorphogenic processes of terrestrial plants are controlled by bright red light and an alternation between bright red (lambda = 660 nm) and dark red (lambda = 730 nm). The associated receptor is the phytochrome, a protein-chromophore complex that can exist in (at least) two state forms that can be reversibly changed from one to the other by exposure to light.

Phytochrome is a chromoprotein whose state is affected by light. It is formed predominantly in darkness and is initially present as PR (P is the abbreviation for phytochrome, R stands for red). After irradiation with lambda= 660 nm light (light red, red) it changes into PFR [FR=far red; in German one could also write: PHR (light red), resp. PDR (dark red); or using the wavelengths P660, resp P730]. PFR is converted back into PR by lambda = 730 nm light (dark red). PR is the biologically inactive form, PFR is the biologically active form.

PR is formed in the cytoplasm in darkness and accumulates there until a certain level is reached. An equilibrium between synthesis and (slow) degradation is established. Conversion to PFR after irradiation with bright red light is a rapid process. PFR is extraordinarily unstable, so the phytochrome level in the cell drops after exposure to one to three percent of the original value, which presumably represents a new equilibrium between PR synthesis and PFR degradation. After darkening, the phytochrome level increases again due to a de novo synthesis of PR.

With the onset of a light period, physiological activity begins, and the photophilic phase begins. After about 9-12 hours, any further light supply has an inhibitory effect on plant development. The plant enters its scotophilic (dark-loving) phase. ... it says that the supply of PFR is exhausted at the end of a photophilic phase due to forced degradation and lack of replenishment, so that the plant can no longer perceive light at all.

University Hamburg, Germany

 

[snakedope]

Trying to read this thread from the start in order to get a feel for the way this forum conducts itself but so far I'm only up to page three. It will be interesting to see if anyone is able to get the "Nakedpope" (Snakedope) to accept any viewpoint but his own. If he is still contributing here I hope my sarcastic nickname doesn't offend - it's only a gentle joke; more a jab at my failing eyesight than a character assassination of him as a contributor.
View attachment 18783193

Just dont contribute too much bro please you are overwhelming us with info and science
Fucking joke.

Hemp behaves atypically for a C3 plant, there are researchers who see hemp as a C4 plant in photosynthesis. A value of 1,200 PPFD without additional CO² would be correct, some reported over 1,500 PPFD that there was still increase in mass, albeit small. Recent research confirms the value of 1,200 PPFD.

Hemp first needs only a very narrow, poor spectrum and grows, we all know under poor lamps. Hemp benefits very much from a good light spectrum, the wider the spectrum, the better!

But most important is the intensity of individual areas of the spectrum that CMH and plasma lamps already bring along, you can recreate this for a few years with LED and then has similar results in the quality.

But, with the buds CMH and plasma still leads, nobody knows so far why under LED the buds are so compact and hard, although the spectrum is almost identical as with CMH and plasma?

That's why I still use CMH for growing and breeding and only test with LED. Under modern CMH the end product is a dream.

That LED produce more THC or terpenes I consider partially correct, but then it is not quite so simple. The values are sometimes so low single-digit that you could also include other factors.

+1
Right on the money my friend.
LEDs grows killer buds for looks but
Lacks in every other thing.

THC tests are a fucking joke, just like pcr tests hahaha
They only tell you how much of your Bud is frost mass, but LEDs frost is headless trichs or very small glands that don't do shit.

If you want to have the best quality, take cmh for lower watts.
A 400w hps will waste 30% of its power to IR heat, that means from 55k lumens you start with, u are left with only 38K in the par range, which an additional 40% of that is also reflected.
A cmh light will loss less to IR heat and will make power in the par range
When u go to higher watts, 600 or 1000w take hps
Cuz even with the losses it's still more stronger then any single light source today.