LED and BUD QUALITY

[Rocket Soul]

For reference, my closet measures 21" X 21" X 96"
I am using a SIP container with about 4 liters of nutrient solution at the bottom with an air bubbler.

I have a 5 gallon pail of wine brewing under the plant for additional CO2.



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I keep everything electric above the waterline to help reduce the shock hazard.

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I do use a couple incandescent bulbs to heat the closet, but I screwed up and got spray on the bulb and it blew up.

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I'm gonna use the shields again for my next grow.
I found this picture of one of my plants, and it was pushing pretty hard on the walls, so I guess I better keep using them?

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Its great to see you keeping DIY solutions alive! I dont think i have to tell you you already know, great job! This is a blow by blow setup that i wanted to do at home but i started working with my friends bigger space.
Whats inside you sip? Organic? How do you manage the nutes in the bottom res? Ill have to check and see if you have a growthread, hope to pick your brain a bit if thats ok ?

On shields, i think you know better than me but yes you dont want leaf/bud on leds. What did you use for shields? I like those meters on the power supply: separate top and side lighting?

 

[PCBuds]

Once I was on vacation during flower, underestimated the stretch. The buds grew into the LEDs. Several LEDs broken on three different stripes after that.

I only had a problem once when I scratched an LED segment. That segment burned out and took out ¼ of the strip. (My strips have 56 segments with 4 sets of parallel segments, each with 14 segments in series.)

I decided to fix (experiment) it by replacing the segment with a resistor.
I could have just shorted the segment, but then the other segments in the string would see higher voltage and get brighter and get the hottest.

The results were kinda weird.
When I had my lights turned down low, the segments in that string were dimmer than the rest of the strip, and when the lights were turned up to maximum (my maximum is always half of the rated maximum current or less) the segments in that string were brighter than the rest of the strip.

So I should have used a bigger resistor that was matched with the voltage I run my lights at.

It's all a result of LED's having the odd characteristic of conducting better as they get hotter, and my resistor doesn't change it's value as it gets hot.

So,..
The remaining segments in that string got hot and charred the fiberglass on the backside of the strip.

EDIT: I'm seeing 4 burn marks, so maybe there's 8 sets with 7 segments in series?

Several LEDs broken on three different stripes after that.

I remember downloading this picture from somewhere here on the forum where the same thing happened to him,..

My strip burned out differently when a single segment burned out and it took out the entire string.
I didn't get segments that were dim, or half burned out.


Either way, I'm going to keep using the sheilds.
The plant ends up getting a little scorched when it rubs on the segments, and the segments get gunk on them.
It's not a fire risk with my strips kept at the test current (350 ma) but they get messy and I get some scorched buds.

I am losing some lumens with the shields in place, but I've got a bazillion lumens to work with, so I can waste a few million.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I only had a problem once when I scratched an LED segment. That segment burned out and took out ¼ of the strip. (My strips have 56 segments with 4 sets of parallel segments, each with 14 segments in series.)

View attachment 19086858 View attachment 19086859


I decided to fix (experiment) it by replacing the segment with a resistor.
I could have just shorted the segment, but then the other segments in the string would see higher voltage and get brighter and get the hottest.

The results were kinda weird.
When I had my lights turned down low, the segments in that string were dimmer than the rest of the strip, and when the lights were turned up to maximum (my maximum is always half of the rated maximum current or less) the segments in that string were brighter than the rest of the strip.

So I should have used a bigger resistor that was matched with the voltage I run my lights at.

It's all a result of LED's having the odd characteristic of conducting better as they get hotter, and my resistor doesn't change it's value as it gets hot.

So,..
The remaining segments in that string got hot and charred the fiberglass on the backside of the strip.


View attachment 19086860 View attachment 19086861




I remember downloading this picture from somewhere here on the forum where the same thing happened to him,..

View attachment 19086872

My strip burned out differently when a single segment burned out and it took out the entire string.
I didn't get segments that were dim, or half burned out.


Either way, I'm going to keep using the sheilds.
The plant ends up getting a little scorched when it rubs on the segments, and the segments get gunk on them.
It's not a fire risk with my strips kept at the test current (350 ma) but they get messy and I get some scorched buds.

I am losing some lumens with the shields in place, but I've got a bazillion lumens to work with, so I can waste a few million.

I know those blux strips, worked a lot with gen3 slims (didnt like, flimsy and shitty connectors along with bad sinking) and my favorite, the blux vesta: just under 200 diodes in cold white /warm white in a 2 foot strip. You can use them to get 3 spectrums sending the current down one way the other or both at the same time. Not so efficient by modern standards but are very nice for full cycle space, change from seedling to vegg to flower by button click or wago... Im doing a write up on that light for the DIY thread but got mad busy lately with pcb design and briefing a new tester of the strips im getting built. Why not post your own DIY project there, it fits the bill perfectly and you have stellar bud results

When it comes to broken blux strips i just dump em and put another one in. Bought a full batch of my favourite flower spectrum 2700k 90cri so theres spares for a few life times. There was no other way to get that spectrum and since i had +3m2 to cover it made sense. Props for fixing it yourself!

 

[PCBuds]

I know those blux strips, worked a lot with gen3 slims

I don't know about your gen3 slim strips, but mine need ~19.5 Volts, and the industry standard is ~24 Volts.

Luckily all my Voltage Supplies would turn down far enough to not over power the strips.

And I'd recommend to anyone to spend the extra money and get a power supply with both CC and CV.

My Voltage Supplies are only CV and they are a PITA to fuss with because of all that thermal run-away stuff.

I'd set my voltage and current using my meters, then come back 10 minutes later and the current had more than doubled.
I got used to it and just had to keep a close eye on everything when I was adjusting the brightness.

I'd recommend getting a proper MeanWell LED driver with CC and CV.

I ended up spending more money and way more time farting around with crappy $40 Voltage Supplies.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I don't know about your gen3 slim strips, but mine need ~19.5 Volts, and the industry standard is ~24 Volts.

Luckily all my Voltage Supplies would turn down far enough to not over power the strips.

And I'd recommend to anyone to spend the extra money and get a power supply with both CC and CV.

My Voltage Supplies are only CV and they are a PITA to fuss with because of all that thermal run-away stuff.

I'd set my voltage and current using my meters, then come back 10 minutes later and the current had more than doubled.
I got used to it and just had to keep a close eye on everything when I was adjusting the brightness.

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I'd recommend getting a proper MeanWell LED driver with CC and CV.

I ended up spending more money and way more time farting around with crappy $40 Voltage Supplies.

There are good meanwell power supplies for little cost like the lrs series (i think its cv/cc and about that price) and getting a nice meanwell hlg is nothing one will regret. Id only go another way for difficult voltages or for constant power. To be honest the blix 1foot being so low power id just go with a cc driver and do series of 4. Its the way i went with Vestas and didnt regret it. You can also do 2 strip Series parallel circuits very well with some other meanwells for example 48A which allows you to go up to +50V.
Anyone thinking its expensive should check in on arrow electronics; list all meanwell of interesting wattage and display from low price to high. There are absolute bargains there from time to time, theres a thread on riu that will publish deals occasionally. But best to check one self. There were also samsung strips in the thousands for 2$ for a while, 144 leds.

 

[Hammerhead]

 

[Ca++]

Current limiting could still be added to the PSU based controls. I couldn't link to the cheapest (which was under £1) but this is the kit from a £2.50 seller

3 amps each, might mean spending 20 cads on 4 of them, or under 10 with some poking about. No screen, it's not even assembled. It's just cheap as chips.

 

[chiesesganja]

 

[baboodie]

finally read this whole damn thread. phew.

This might be a fun one for you all. These nugs were all grown under General Electric PAR38 LED Grow Bulbs, Veg and Greens/Fruit and Flower. Started as a budget microgrow experiment and just kept rollin, buying more of em. Biggest yield is 2.5 oz from a fairly small plant. Nothing crazy but the quality is mostly there and it's enough for lil ol me...

 

[baboodie]

Ran out of attachment room. Obviously not super powerful bulbs on their lonesome, but in tandem they can do a lil damage!

during a brief power outage, showing the setup

I really love having them on flexible clamp lamps, so I can mess with angles to improve coverage and penetration.

I didn't feel like the flowering bulbs were strong enough on their own, so what I would do is supplement with the veg lights in the middle of the day. Just 3 of them in a standing floor lamp haha, very janky. Going to improve that this next time. I want them all in a circle or square arrangement rather than a straight line.

also the pinkish tint of the fruit and flower lights make for some nice colors. I would get a lot closer than 24 inches, but they WILL burn and bleach bud. From my first attempt, this bud bleached out then turned pink:

specs:

more box pics:

 

[Rocket Soul]

Ran out of attachment room. Obviously not super powerful bulbs on their lonesome, but in tandem they can do a lil damage!

during a brief power outage, showing the setup
View attachment 19101278

I really love having them on flexible clamp lamps, so I can mess with angles to improve coverage and penetration.

I didn't feel like the flowering bulbs were strong enough on their own, so what I would do is supplement with the veg lights in the middle of the day. Just 3 of them in a standing floor lamp haha, very janky. Going to improve that this next time. I want them all in a circle or square arrangement rather than a straight line.

also the pinkish tint of the fruit and flower lights make for some nice colors. I would get a lot closer than 24 inches, but they WILL burn and bleach bud. From my first attempt, this bud bleached out then turned pink:
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specs:
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more box pics:
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Very nice.
Purples and pink are generally (unless genetics) down to anthocyanin accumulation in the plant. Its a protective photopigment, that tend to come out when there is too much intensity with not enough temperature (very common with leds). Its a phenomenon known as high irradiation response, similar to purple stems so not something that is indicative of great plant performance; more indicative in that youre hitting the top light limits at whatever temps youre growing at.
With bulbs i always find the switchability the main draw, being able to setup your own spectrum so to speak by using different bulbs.
Ive seen people add around 10% incandescent to standard whites with what looks like fantastic results. Incandescent are great for deepreds (beyond the common 660) far reds and infra red but should be used carefully since it can really stretch out the plant. Youre likely to see an increased response and even a change in color. In your case with an already super red spectrum id encourage you to try but also adding some cold whites at the same time, or those veg light you mentioned. Hope to see more

 

[Hammerhead]

 

[Herbal-Essence]

Purples and pink are generally (unless genetics) down to anthocyanin accumulation in the plant. Its a protective photopigment, that tend to come out when there is too much intensity with not enough temperature (very common with leds). Its a phenomenon known as high irradiation response, similar to purple stems so not something that is indicative of great plant performance; more indicative in that youre hitting the top light limits at whatever temps youre growing at.

While I certainly believe that's true there seems to be some correlation with nutrients too, I've noticed mine showing more of this "irradation response" after I've cut the nutrients and only fed them water - without changing the lights or temps

 

[Deleted member 542403]

Science says 85F is optimal, if you can keep it at that.. less then 77F you are nearing a "freezing" point in terms of photosynthesis power, we dry at 65F...
Take that in mind, i also seen improvement with LEDs when u keep heat above 82F like Kimes said.
Heat is your friend, dont avoid it, it what makes them grow, just dont burn em

This is an old post and I'm sure you're already fed up having to discuss with people but I still want to share this.

If below 77f the photosynthesis stops, how can we grow plants in spring, fall and winter?
Actually in summer the temps most of the time here are below 77f too.

Lower temps = higher potency but lower yield
Higher temps = lower potency but higher yield

It's actually quality wise better to keep the temps below 77f and that's only bud temps, so air temp should be even lower to get the ideal out.

 

[Rocket Soul]

While I certainly believe that's true there seems to be some correlation with nutrients too, I've noticed mine showing more of this "irradation response" after I've cut the nutrients and only fed them water - without changing the lights or temps

Yes, your right, its two parts of the same process: high irradiation leads to anthocyanin production but normally its covered up by chlorophyll. When you cut nutes or just when the plant goes into senescence/fade the plant pulls chlorophyll out of the leaves and i guess even buds, thats when you start seeing colors. Just like autumn leaves. One thing is the production the other thing is making it visible

This is an old post and I'm sure you're already fed up having to discuss with people but I still want to share this.

If below 77f the photosynthesis stops, how can we grow plants in spring, fall and winter?
Actually in summer the temps most of the time here are below 77f too.

Lower temps = higher potency but lower yield
Higher temps = lower potency but higher yield

It's actually quality wise better to keep the temps below 77f and that's only bud temps, so air temp should be even lower to get the ideal out.

Im fairly certain snakedope isnt around anymore, during the time with this thread ive seen him quoted but never resurface. In any case why try to summon him, his posts and energy was just generally annoying AF.

 

[Deleted member 542403]

Yes, your right, its two parts of the same process: high irradiation leads to anthocyanin production but normally its covered up by chlorophyll. When you cut nutes or just when the plant goes into senescence/fade the plant pulls chlorophyll out of the leaves and i guess even buds, thats when you start seeing colors. Just like autumn leaves. One thing is the production the other thing is making it visible

Im fairly certain snakedope isnt around anymore, during the time with this thread ive seen him quoted but never resurface. In any case why try to summon him, his posts and energy was just generally annoying AF.

Because I've read the first two pages of the thread and felt like adding this info since it's relevant to the post and the things that have been falsely assumed and supported by people in this thread.

I'm not minimizing that the guy has experience growing and knows how to grow HPS but at the same time it's important to point out that conclusions oftentimes can't be drawn only from personal experience since mistakes can be made or a lack of critical info is present that lead to the faulty result in the first place.

I'm also just getting my feet wet in the cultivation and see there's many different things to consider between different methods, equipment and areas people live in.

It's always most productive to point people into the right direction rather than to poop on them.

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes and everyone is fooled sometimes, can only remind of the pandemic regarding this issue, tho not everyone has been fooled. (I'm not claiming COVID19 never existed, that would be idiotic).

The intention is to add something productive that's based on data.
Not all data is usable in general but those are tests done in a professional setup to specifically test those things.

 

[SaveTheBrains]

What is your opinion on Cob led, like TGL 60 or Tgl 100? I have seen Haze prefesr them than the Samsung

 

[4maggio]

Funny, my first real grow with LED (COB) and have followed the 85F 50-60%RH (via VPD and controller).
Best looking buds I've grown in a long while. Coming from HID, it wasn't easy talking myself into 85F but when in veg at 77F/60% they looked like shit.. brought it to 85F bingo. Not a science guy, learned most thru trial, error and guidance I got from here.. back then it was different here. AND it's a lot easier to keep them at 85F w LED than 77F w HID.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Funny, my first real grow with LED (COB) and have followed the 85F 50-60%RH (via VPD and controller).
Best looking buds I've grown in a long while. Coming from HID, it wasn't easy talking myself into 85F but when in veg at 77F/60% they looked like shit.. brought it to 85F bingo. Not a science guy, learned most thru trial, error and guidance I got from here.. back then it was different here. AND it's a lot easier to keep them at 85F w LED than 77F w HID.

It all depends a bit... We are in openspace and not in a tent. In vegg space we either have to add heat or dump our extraction from flower or our veg plants look shitty. Our system depends on real slow veg so very little transpiration due to light intensity (this also affects transpiration). With amp limitations this all gets very tricky unless you have some gas heating. But in the end HPS would be even harder. CMH would be doable since they can handle heat a little better, almost like leds, but wed still take a loss in yield cause of lower light per watts. And 85F isnt a great finishing temprature for terps and trichomes. But we play around to get everything right and usually it works out. Open space also meant we can do much better air movement and never have any mold anymore. Ymmv.

What is your opinion on Cob led, like TGL 60 or Tgl 100? I have seen Haze prefesr them than the Samsung

Lots of cob lovers around still, seems like mainly people moving into leds from HID. Ive not seen something to explain this to a 100%. My guess is that cobs with big heatsinks throw a little irradiated heat back on the tops which is helpfull for bud size.
Main benefits of cobs to me is that they are replaceable cheaply- the light has higher costs for heatsinking but lower chip cost per watt. And available in any spectrum youd like. The tgl in 3000k is 97 cri which is a nice option. I think @BReal grows some nice fat colas with high cri cobs but generally id stay with 90cri which is enough to move in the red phosphor bump into were i like it. Though you may wanna use a little more wattage than with your standard midpowers as efficiency is a bit lower. Though when you change chip eventually you might be able to use something a bit more efficient than the standard chips in the TGL.
Also if youre wanting a few of these why not spec up prices for a DIY option? The light is just a few standard parts from Digikey or mouser thrown together id i understand correctly, but id have to check a bit since i havent looked at cobs for like 7 years or so. Another issue is that TGL is not open anymore, web closed down, so youd have to figure out how warranty works with your seller. Probably just better to diy tbh.

 

[BReal]

Hey everyone Thanks for mentioning me because I like to share my experience with cobs and it's mostly positive They are not perfect, and modern leds are still the way to go most likely, but they are still solid. There is a lot you could talk about this topic. Where to start? Hm...

Why I choose 90 CRI over 80 CRI which is the most popular and the most avialable format? To answear that you have to look on this graph by CREE:

Compare carefuly red and purple lines. 80 CRI is about 10% more efficient in general if you take all wavelengths into consideration - but we are talking about lumens here. Not par. 90 CRI is beating 80 CRI not only with red spectrum but with blue as well. But the most important difference is still in how much of 660 nm you get compared to 80 CRI and it would be about 50% vs 90% of red, so you get about 40% more of 660 nm. That's not a small difference. I'm not sure if my logic is right.. but results I got so far, seem to confirm that this is a great cob for flowering

Keep in mind that my tent is very small, so I have no idea how this model would perform in a much bigger tent. But if someone doesn't have access to modern leds, or doesn't have space for them, cob is a great alternative. They get a little bit hot without fans when pushing 1400 mA (that is recommended usually) - I can barely hold heatsinks but they are not as hot as HPS for sure. And you can make them more efficient and cooler by mounting bigger heatsinks or using fans.

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