LED and BUD QUALITY

[MicroPlasticBalls]

i didn't do this to improve flavor as i don't believe it works to improve flavor.

according to dr bernstein and some others this starving includes the starving of nitrogen and she thinks this also enhances cannabinoids and terpenes.

so now we actually have a real reason to starve our plants at the end.

What causes forum growers to believe and not believe? Because it's not reality. It's like religion. Someone started talking about the sun, the almanac and practical shit like that, then some asshole who didn't understand agriculture thought they must be talking about a supernatural machine set in motion by a super human in the clouds. Now we have this disgusting concept called atheisism. That's exactly what one half of pot smokers are like. They pretend to enjoy cyclohexane, they only believed in the one true nute, and their lighting prophets only take one measurement, on off or how much.

 

[MicroPlasticBalls]

"While red light is known to promote the uptake of nitrate and sugars, blue light is known to promote the uptake of other ions and amino acids." (Meanwhile the weed experts like Daniel Turdandez And Bruce Midsbee say weed cannot uptake organics)


So what about gamma radiation x ray muons gluons and all that?





Real growers switch to MH if they are too stupid to make their own nutes for shitty led.

 

[Ca++]

Do you think he wears a goldy coloured chain?
I'm just gonna believe every word he says. You can just tell he's the man from his mum's curtains

 

[Prawn Connery]

"While red light is known to promote the uptake of nitrate and sugars, blue light is known to promote the uptake of other ions and amino acids." (Meanwhile the weed experts like Daniel Turdandez And Bruce Midsbee say weed cannot uptake organics)


So what about gamma radiation x ray muons gluons and all that?





Real growers switch to MH if they are too stupid to make their own nutes for shitty led.

Surprise, surprise. A metal halide producer claiming MH is even better than LED!

The only problem is, MH tech has been used indoors for 50+ years . . . And yet, in all that time, indoor growers around the world nearly all settled on HPS. Or at least a combination of HPS and MH, usually at a ratio of 2:1.

Why?

MH has had plenty of time to establish its credentials – it is one of the oldest forms of indoor horticultural lighting. If it is so good, why has it never caught on in the same way as HPS or LED in the past 50 years?

What's so special about MH now that growers haven't noticed (or measured) in all this time?

All I see is more bullshit from another lighting manufacturer. To wit:

Our 1000w lamp is extraordinarily bright at 100,000 lumens (100lumen/watt), putting it's light output on par (no pun intended) with the leading light sources for indoor gardening.

We all know lumens are not the correct measurement for plants to begin with, but to state that 100lm/w is "on par" with 150lm/w (HPS) or 200+lm/w (LED) is just setting yourself up for ridicule. Just go home already.

Efficiency | Mass Metal Halide

Learn the truth about MH bulbs and efficiency in your grow. Just because an LED might use slightly less wattage per square foot for the light, doesn't mean your electricity costs will be lower once all equipment and inputs are factored in. MH also produce more usable light in the ePar and pBar...

www.massmetalhalide.com

^ Link

Or this (below). Looks impressive yeah? Until you crunch the numbers (hint: look at the area under the curve) and realise MH has too much UV – twice as much as natural sunlight. It also wastes energy in the infra-red range beyond what is needed for additional metabolic warmth (assuming you need it). Plus it has too much blue for flowering.

But that's almost not the point, because sunlight is dynamic and changes from the hour in the day to the season, geography and weather events.

Anyone who claims their light is "sunlike" has to define "sun" – because it changes!

This is clear sky sunlight at different times during the first three hours of the day. Pretty dynamic, eh?

And this is the difference between seasons. Note how much UV and blue light drop off in Autumn (when cannabis flowers) and winter.

Which "sunlike" do you think your plants prefer to flower under?

Here is what happened when we added a CMH to one of our early LED grows using the same strains and conditions. CMH dragged the numbers down by over 5% (1.3 percentage points).

SAMPLE.......CBDA.......CBD.......CBGa.......CBG.......CBN.......d9THC.......THCa
C...................0.1%.......................0.7%........................0.1%......1.4%..........24%
D...................0.2%.......................1%...........................0.1%......2%.............22.7%

Sample C = LED (with 0.5% UVA and 5% Far Red)

Sample D = LED + CMH

 

[Rocket Soul]

Had a look at the mass metal page and the blurb is a bit... dunno, i guess peeps have to see for them selves. Factual errors mixed with a lot of stuff that may sound wow to the growbros but old news for most with an inquisitive mind. Worst thing is the inconsistencies; they cant even nail down what their spectrum actually is, is it this or what was posted by prawn cuz theyre really not the same. Not hugely different but come on how do we even know its either of them if the mr Mass post two different spectrums? Are there that much difference between two bulbs? Are there several gens of bulbs? Whata going on.

"The plants will turn towards the mass halides cause of its sunlike spectrum" bs, its called phototropism and is down to blue and uv content of this bulb, which is really high (me like ) If next to light with only blue and uv of similar strength the plants would turn towards that light even though missing all greens/reds/ir.

My best guess is that this light grows quite well, especially in the realm of "grow feel" : that feeling you get when the whole equation of growing: plant stance, color of leaves, no defs a whole bunch of indicators that things are going really well. But it has tremendous ir output, id hate to climate for this in summer. And basicly, growing with this would mean id have to cut down from 4 to 2 4x4s. Also wonder ehat that green spike is all about, whats the reasoning cause its obviously an add on. Im my thinking it will handicap the grow somewhat as its an inhibitor of the very blue/uv response that the maker is touting.

It may be a good bulb for a short cut towards quality if led is giving you problems. But with terps getting destroyed at +30C i dont see how it could help in our situation.
How many end up having to cooltube this and remove most of that uv?

Oh, i regret writing my spidey sense is predicting another ranty flame war in bulbs vrs led. And i havent even understood if this light was brought up in a positive or negative light

Edit: another thing that peeves me is the led uv graph thats pushed onto the bulb spectrum: since these are really relative intensity spectrums how would you know high to draw the led UV spectrum? Why not as high as the blue or even the green peak, we dont really know how much led uv watts were comparing with. This is playing silly buggers with us. I could make a 50w led light where 15w was UV and post the spectrum, and have a much more UV heavy spectrum than the bulb. Unless mass medical comes up with something more data centred, side by sides, reliable comparatives in cannabinoid composition and concentration this cant really be taken as much more than a blurple hid bulb with "magic" super sauce in it, just as long as you buy it.

 

[Prawn Connery]

I like MH. I like CMH. But let's not get carried away. MH is one of the most inefficient forms of lighting out there as it produces a lot of waste IR. Just have a look at all the IR after 900nm in the MH bulb. Remember, it's about area under the curve, so it is pretty obvious even to the casual observer that MH has a much higher proportion of IR than even sunlight.

I have no issues with mixing MH or CMH with LED if you need extra warmth – that is the most efficient way to provide light and warmth – but we've tested the results and they were not as good. So there's that.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I like MH. I like CMH. But let's not get carried away. MH is one of the most inefficient forms of lighting out there as it produces a lot of waste IR. Just have a look at all the IR after 900nm in the MH bulb. Remember, it's about area under the curve, so it is pretty obvious even to the casual observer that MH has a much higher proportion of IR than even sunlight.

I have no issues with mixing MH or CMH with LED if you need extra warmth – that is the most efficient way to provide light and warmth – but we've tested the results and they were not as good. So there's that.

If I understand correctly the bulb has 2 ppf/w which is quite good for a bulb. But i dont think i want to comment much more not having tried it next to my own lights. In any case its not really a post regarding led bud quality just more of the same as the last 10 years of hids are just better cause the underwear gnomes says so.

 

[greyfader]

"While red light is known to promote the uptake of nitrate and sugars, blue light is known to promote the uptake of other ions and amino acids." (Meanwhile the weed experts like Daniel Turdandez And Bruce Midsbee say weed cannot uptake organics)


So what about gamma radiation x ray muons gluons and all that?





Real growers switch to MH if they are too stupid to make their own nutes for shitty led.

here you go, buddy! buy these two items and you're ready to go for life. case closed! plant lighting solved! look no further!

the first one is a 1500 watt football stadium metal halide bulb. 4k color temp. 170,000 lumens. mogul socket, universal position which means up, down, or sideways.

this bulb comes with UV hazard warnings in large print on the box. it's about the size of a football. 3000 hour life.

GE 47326 | 1500W Metal Halide Bulb | MVR1500/U/SPORTS | 1000Bulbs.com

Shop for GE 47326 1500W BT56 SportStar Multi-Vapor Metal Halide bulbs. LOW prices and FAST shipping on GE Metal Halide lamps only at 1000Bulbs.com!

www.1000bulbs.com

this is a ballast kit for the bulb. 4 tap which means you can run it on any voltage. built like a truck.

Sola E-MCA00W1500 - 1500 Watt - Metal Halide Ballast | 1000Bulbs.com

Light your HID Lamps with Sola E-MCA00W1500 1500 watt Metal Halide Ballast. 4-tap multi-volt Magnetic HID Ballast on sale at 1000Bulbs.com!

www.1000bulbs.com

so for a total of $234.07 you have a bulb and ballast powerful enough to run an entire small room.

you might want to get one of these giant parabolic reflectors to go with it.

oh well it wouldn't let me use the amazon link, but you will see one there.

another 72 bucks for a grand total of $306.07

i have personally grown with this set up, over 15 years ago. it does produce nice flowers but they don't have the weight that hps will get you and that's the real reason most folks used hps back in the day. more lumens per watt, more brute force with HPS

metal halide 113.33 lumens per watt, hps mogul socket 1000 watt 145 lumens per watt.

there are valid reasons for using a combination of MH and HPS. which i have also done in multiple rooms.

once i built a 14 ft diameter geodesic dome and lined it entirely with reflectix. i hung one of these 1500 watt MH bulbs in the center, bare. and then five 1000 watt HPS bulbs around the walls, also bare.

i put 5 plants in it, upright trees.

it all worked great, BUT, the heat generated by these 6 bulbs was incredible. in addition to running inefficient lighting at huge electrical costs, i had to run a 25,000 btu ac balls to the wall and it was barely staying on top of the heat.

the room at 14 ft diameter had an approx 153 sq ft of space and when the five plants were fully developed they occupied all of it. i had just enough room to walk in between them to work.

in contrast, a theoretical 153 sq ft square room would be 12.37 x 12.37 in dimension and so i could squeeze 9 700 watt led fixtures in there to approx equal the HID wattage.

the 9 fixtures would require 12,600 btu of ac to offset the heat. big savings on initial purchase price of the ac over the HID room and huge long-term savings on the juice needed to operate it.

but with LED i don't need the same wattage because more of the electrical energy is used to produce light than a HID bulb

so, i could put 5 700 watt LED fixtures in there and grow more weight and better flowers. 4 1000 watt LED's would be better. with 4 1k fixtures i would need approx 5,600 btu of cooling.

i would probably use an 8000 btu unit for a little redundancy.

assuming you pay .10 cents per kilowatt hour, using a 12 hour photoperiod the HID room i just described would use 78 kwh for a cost of 7.80 per day or x 30 $234 per month to operate.

the LED room would use 48 kwh for $4.80 per day or $144 per month.

that's just the lights. you would be using approx 1/3 the juice running a 8000 btu ac over the 25,000 btu ac.

HID bulbs do not have an adjustable or tunable spectrum. the LED is capable of it if built right.

this discussion is not about a contest between types of lighting. it is not a WWF smackdown about lights. it is about finding the ideal spectrum for growing cannabis using LEDs as the primary light source.

we have discussed using other forms of lighting in a supplemental fashion in conjunction with LED's.

you, obviously, have not read much of this thread. i suggest you do go back and read a little of it so you at least understand what we are talking about.

"some asshole who didn't understand agriculture" as opposed to some asshole who does understand agriculture?

and;

"Real growers switch to MH if they are too stupid to make their own nutes for shitty led." as opposed to unreal growers who are smart enough to make their own nutes for shitty led?

come on, man! or should i say "boy"? how old are you, anyway? you sound like you are still living at home with mommy.

 

[bloyd]

here you go, buddy! buy these two items and you're ready to go for life. case closed! plant lighting solved! look no further!

the first one is a 1500 watt football stadium metal halide bulb. 4k color temp. 170,000 lumens. mogul socket, universal position which means up, down, or sideways.

this bulb comes with UV hazard warnings in large print on the box. it's about the size of a football. 3000 hour life.

GE 47326 | 1500W Metal Halide Bulb | MVR1500/U/SPORTS | 1000Bulbs.com

Shop for GE 47326 1500W BT56 SportStar Multi-Vapor Metal Halide bulbs. LOW prices and FAST shipping on GE Metal Halide lamps only at 1000Bulbs.com!

www.1000bulbs.com

this is a ballast kit for the bulb. 4 tap which means you can run it on any voltage. built like a truck.

Sola E-MCA00W1500 - 1500 Watt - Metal Halide Ballast | 1000Bulbs.com

Light your HID Lamps with Sola E-MCA00W1500 1500 watt Metal Halide Ballast. 4-tap multi-volt Magnetic HID Ballast on sale at 1000Bulbs.com!

www.1000bulbs.com

so for a total of $234.07 you have a bulb and ballast powerful enough to run an entire small room.

you might want to get one of these giant parabolic reflectors to go with it.

oh well it wouldn't let me use the amazon link, but you will see one there.

another 72 bucks for a grand total of $306.07

my dad broke into met stadium and took out several of those 1500 stadium lights before demolition. Hung vertical it more than heated his house in MN winter in the 90s. I noticed the giant ballasts still kicking around last time I visited.

 

[greyfader]

my dad broke into met stadium and took out several of those 1500 stadium lights before demolition. Hung vertical it more than heated his house in MN winter in the 90s. I noticed the giant ballasts still kicking around last time I visited.

so, you come by your miscreant tendencies naturally! like me! i come from a long line of natural born fuck-ups!

 

[bloyd]

so, you come by your miscreant tendencies naturally! like me! i come from a long line of natural born fuck-ups!

Well my dad is adopted from unknown origin but it's safe to say his birth parents were fuck ups, these genes run deep.

Can't wait to get back to ppk with clean plants, this handwatering is for the birds. Hope your projects are coming along successfully.

 

[greyfader]

Well my dad is adopted from unknown origin but it's safe to say his birth parents were fuck ups, these genes run deep.

Can't wait to get back to ppk with clean plants, this handwatering is for the birds. Hope your projects are coming along successfully.

you know, you and i have been talking on here for a long time! i can't thank you enough for trying the PPK system. because of people on the mag trying and endorsing it i have gotten many consulting jobs and was an employee of a bioscience company for 3 years. all of which improved the quality of life for my wife and i.

how long have you been using the system and what form are you using? as you know it's not a single build but a flow pattern that can take many different forms.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Well my dad is adopted from unknown origin but it's safe to say his birth parents were fuck ups, these genes run deep.

Can't wait to get back to ppk with clean plants, this handwatering is for the birds. Hope your projects are coming along successfully.

Please tag me for any active ppk growlog, even if its someone elses love me some weednerding.

 

[I Care]

What’s a PPK?

 

[growsjoe1]

What’s a PPK?

delta9nxs is the guy to read up on. He's still around under a different handle. He knows his shit.

passive plant killer

ImaginaryFriend's INTERPRETATION of Delta9nxs' PASSIVE PLANT KILLERS

Latest on PPK method?

 

[I Care]

Thanks, I found passive plant killer. It’s many pages I need to up my nutrient levels before I read through that. Think I saw someone using this idea for their own efforts on a double kiddie pool no till on the forum's. I need to determine my own method of water recirculating a 2x40L floodable night rig. A better way to catch run off for adjustment and running back through until satisfactory run off is metered. Right now it requires two 5L catch containers, 1 gallon water jug, a towel and a lot of kneeling/bending. Need a 15-20L reservoir and a pump with a hose so I can water to run off and recirculate while buffering up/down every week.



Here’s a little picture of a VS XS2500Pro powered OLD SOUL cutting that I recently hung down to 12 inches at second highest power setting. Heavy flood feeding at 6th week of flower guessing on pH with busted metering glass.

 

[greyfader]

Thanks, I found passive plant killer. It’s many pages I need to up my nutrient levels before I read through that. Think I saw someone using this idea for their own efforts on a double kiddie pool no till on the forum's. I need to determine my own method of water recirculating a 2x40L floodable night rig. A better way to catch run off for adjustment and running back through until satisfactory run off is metered. Right now it requires two 5L catch containers, 1 gallon water jug, a towel and a lot of kneeling/bending. Need a 15-20L reservoir and a pump with a hose so I can water to run off and recirculate while buffering up/down every week.



Here’s a little picture of a VS XS2500Pro powered OLD SOUL cutting that I recently hung down to 12 inches at second highest power setting. Heavy flood feeding at 6th week of flower guessing on pH with busted metering glass. View attachment 19013296

don't waste your time on the first thread, "passive plant killer", it is the research and development history of the device. mostly experimental and now obsolete information that has been superseded by much easier ways to build and operate. it is a huge rambling thread with a lot of discussion.

the best thread on it is; https://www.icmag.com/threads/something-wicked-this-way-comes.335793/

this thread shows larger-scale plumbing and discusses principles of operation and fairly detailed build info.

it can be built to any scale. small cabinets and tents to large warehouses.

it started as a passive wick-fed experiment that turned into an automated, recirculating, closed-loop, soilless system that is both top-watered and sub-irrigated.

it is a highly redundant system that grows plants on a par with the best RWDC or undercurrent systems. but does not use high-speed water movement, air stones, or chillers. slo-mo-hydro.

it is the only closed-loop recirculating system that will function just fine outdoors in 100f heat.

by the way, i am delta9nxs, i changed my handle last year for security reasons.

i don't want to eat up this thread with yet another diversionary off-topic expedition so if you are still interested after reading up a little let me know and i will be happy to help you build one to fit your circumstances.

here is a recent small thread i did featuring an outstanding Blue Star OG cut.

Blue Star OG pheno hunt winner in a PPK system

i recently conducted a pheno hunt of BlueStarSeedco's cross of Blue Star x Triangle Kush. This consisted of 50 seeds of which 48 popped within 2 days. 36 were selected and of these 12 were flowered. they all had good potency but this one has great potency and the strongest flavor profile...

www.icmag.com

 

[Rocket Soul]

The ppk is fascinating but also a very dense read through, delta/greyfader has a very advanced system setup with water moving every where. Took me a great while to figure it out, and i still don't think ive understood all of it. I got into it from another side, thru a doc posted in the sub irrigation thread over at riu, researching regarding the perched water table.

If i understand correctly and please correct me: its a system for enhanching your watering in hydro which by chance also protects you from pump failures and ensures best possible drainage. It pulls the perched water table (that bottom bit of extra wet media in the bottom of your pot) out of the main part of your pot and into a bottom res (which if you have a failed pump also allows the plant to drink from here)-
This allows the maximum amount of media have the best conditions, aswell as enable watering several times a day, which in turn makes recycling hydro better since you dont have the same need to keep water cool for O2 saturation. The many watering means that the media always have enough o2 since every watering pulls new fresh air into the media-for a hot climate like here in spain it can be a game changer since cooling water is hard.

Ive validated some of the concepts like the importance of the tail pipe myself:
We took two pots with same amount of media (weight and volume)
One standard, one with about 4 " of tailpipe with media stuffed inside, soaked and flooded both. The one with the tailpipe retained about 1/3 of water as the standard one.
For someone who loves dry/wet cycles this is fantastic, you can water much more often without getting water logged roots, and the more often you water the more oxygen youll pull into the pot. Even only "half" of a ppk has value for a grower, the other bit is automation and how to design a system of recycling hydro with maximum stability of ec/ph. Ive not tried the full system due to resistance by my growbuddy, and im unsure how i would achieve the same stability with no access to captain jacks nutes in eu.

Any further youd have to hit up greyfader/delta9 - im sure theres a lot more notes on this but if you xheck out his grows the results validate the system. The only complaint ive ever heard (apart from complexity to understand and where the f can i find turface and Jacks in europe, lol) is that the system is too good, makes growing with great results too easy. And aswell, its not as easy if youre growing small to midsized plants, its best for those big plant grows that seem to have been popular due to plant counts in the US. Id rec this read for anyone who is curious and love understanding the complicated - props to @greyfader for pushing the limits of hydro beyond what the agro industry had thought of. Closest thing they done is flood and drain which still hasnt solved the problem of perched water table.

 

[I Care]

I am really pondering these. Thinking about the overlapping of all the graphs. I think what mass are really trying to prove, is the quality of their MH bulb over an HPS bulb. But then they have other competion with the unreliable which they seem to realistically list at the top of the comparison as being superior. And, they have the LED competition here that they want to show where their bulb is better.

What is so intriguing with these graphs is to consider when you may want to use these types of lighting… if you are graced with the option of all four of these top lighting performers. What would your schedule look like if you could have three variants of synthetic lighting and the sun to work with in the same space?

If I had an established and certifiable space to grow platinum+ quality cannabis and the appropriate demand for platinum+; I woudk try to find value in a array of top quality lighting fixtures for periods where the sunlight isn’t producing exactly what you’re going for at any time or if you were trying to promote certain weather conditions.

I think I would use light kind of light nutes if I had the option and the permission to create a grow space for such an effort. Cold cloudy days you could run everything to generate some heat and try to make up for that sun that seems to be afraid of the rain. Or in the morning when it seems to hide over the horizon for more than 11 hours a day.

I bet that you could really make a huge leap in your production and wuality if you went from one solitary strategy to using everything available to you at different times.

How would I use every light source I like in an outdoor/greenhouse grow
6500k Tubes 2” above new seedlings 24he
Cool White LED 10” above all adolescents for 24hr
Full Spectrum LED 20” on all mature plants from 4hours as first light and last 4 hours of desired day interval and any time sun is hiding.
HPS and MH, fire these up on poor weather days with needed heat and some dryer air around flowering plants.

 

[I Care]

don't waste your time on the first thread, "passive plant killer", it is the research and development history of the device. mostly experimental and now obsolete information that has been superseded by much easier ways to build and operate. it is a huge rambling thread with a lot of discussion.

the best thread on it is; https://www.icmag.com/threads/something-wicked-this-way-comes.335793/

this thread shows larger-scale plumbing and discusses principles of operation and fairly detailed build info.

it can be built to any scale. small cabinets and tents to large warehouses.

it started as a passive wick-fed experiment that turned into an automated, recirculating, closed-loop, soilless system that is both top-watered and sub-irrigated.

it is a highly redundant system that grows plants on a par with the best RWDC or undercurrent systems. but does not use high-speed water movement, air stones, or chillers. slo-mo-hydro.

it is the only closed-loop recirculating system that will function just fine outdoors in 100f heat.

by the way…
i don't want to eat up this thread with yet another diversionary off-topic expedition so if you are still interested after reading up a little let me know and i will be happy to help you build one to fit your circumstances.

here is a recent small thread i did featuring an outstanding Blue Star OG cut.

Blue Star OG pheno hunt winner in a PPK system

i recently conducted a pheno hunt of BlueStarSeedco's cross of Blue Star x Triangle Kush. This consisted of 50 seeds of which 48 popped within 2 days. 36 were selected and of these 12 were flowered. they all had good potency but this one has great potency and the strongest flavor profile...

www.icmag.com

Thanks