Leafs and shoots turning nearly paper white

[ericsson]

Hey guys!
I'm having some problems with my clones. They where rooted in soil (small plastic cups) and once the roots filled out the cups - transplanted into 6" x 6" square pots. The soil mix is ph balanced (5.5-6.5) flower soil mixed with perlite (30%) and hydroton (about 10%). They have been in the 6" x 6" pots for about 2 weeks now, vegging (18/6) under T5's (2x36W cool white). The lights are just above them, maybe 1" away. All they got up till now was BIO ROOTS from GH and and organic fertilizer called Biohumus (from compost/worm castings). As you can see in the "group picture", the deficency is stongest on both my Big Bang's (GHSC) - is that a coincidence? (yet most of the plants are showing some whitening). What could be the cause, how to take care of this?? Also the lower small leafs & shoots are turning white - HELP!

Thanks,
eric

The pics:

 

[fifa]

When dealing with discolored plants the first and foremost important thing is the pH. This can cause nutrient lock out, and thus cause a huge amount of symptoms. In my opinion this is either magnesium, iron, or zinc deficiency(all look fairly similar). My bet being on Iron deficiency. This happened to my seedlings a long time ago. There are a few factors I remember: Too basic of pH, and excess heat. Hope this helps good luck. To fix iron deficiency add nutes with potassium. Half strength.

 

[Centrum]

Looks like they went from having food to being locked out.
The leaf in this last picture around the second node looks like salt build up on the edges.

Its a lock out i think, you should flush with a low strength nute maybe 1/3 strength and wait it out.
Good luck.

 

[ericsson]

Thanks for replies!

About the PH.. it firmly stands around 7 and the fucker wont move a bit (I've tried PH balaned water even as low as 5.5, lemon juice - nothing helped & the run off is alway around 7). The fluorescent T5's dont give that much heat - do you really think too high temperature could be the case? What could have cause the lock out, having in mind that they are clones (transplanted not long ago) and the only thing they got was Biohumus?

I'll try the low-strength flush & see what happens..

Thanks again, stay safe!

 

[freeride high]

any reason you have the lights 1 inch away?

 

[Strainhunter]

any reason you have the lights 1 inch away?

I was just going to ask the same question.

Those lights...should be more distant from your plants.
Put your hands on the fluoro tube while it is on...you'll be surprised how warm it gets!

 

[ericsson]

Well, I wanted to keep them as close to the plants as possible (to prevent stretch) - I stuck my hand under the light and could barely feel the heat (I did touch the tubes as well & they do get warm, but not hot [and I wouldn't think warm enough to burn the plants?]). How far from the plants would you suggest to hang them?

 

[Centrum]

unless they are t8 or lower your fine, they can hug the bulb.

t8 and lower will burn them if they touch.

 

[freeride high]

i wouldnt run any closer than 6"

 

[gmanwho]

mag def. 5 & 6th picture of lower fan leaves are a definte tell tale, leaf blade sides eating themselves from leaf points inward. Other photos could be questionable. mag def cause lime green issues as well like in pic 2&3 in new growth. Mag def in later stages look like pic 5&6.

New growth is looking for mag, plants turning to pull stored mag from lower fan leaves.

If u have issues with soil ph?? then I would foliar feed some cal-mag or epsom. Personally i would foliar with cal-mag +. that way if its not mag def, the other micros in the calmag should take care of it.

God i hate soil.


6" away is good.

Good luck & b-safe

 

[ericsson]

unless they are t8 or lower your fine, they can hug the bulb.

t8 and lower will burn them if they touch.

A up Centrum - I didn't get you, what do you mean by "T8 or lower"?
In my first post I wrote that I have a dual T5 (2 x 36W tubes ). Now Im pretty sure it's a T8 (for fucks sake!), cause the tubes I have are 120cm long, and 36W (T5 is 85cm and 39W), so turns out it's the old fucking T8 (but still - I really didn't feel much heat from it). I don't know now, maybe it is too low?

i wouldnt run any closer than 6"

So, I should go for a 6" gap between the small dudes and the tubes?

mag def. 5 & 6th picture of lower fan leaves are a definte tell tale, leaf blade sides eating themselves from leaf points inward. Other photos could be questionable. mag def cause lime green issues as well like in pic 2&3 in new growth. Mag def in later stages look like pic 5&6.

New growth is looking for mag, plants turning to pull stored mag from lower fan leaves.

If u have issues with soil ph?? then I would foliar feed some cal-mag or epsom. Personally i would foliar with cal-mag +. that way if its not mag def, the other micros in the calmag should take care of it.

Thanks for bumping in gman, you have any idea what could have caused the mag def.? As soon as the plants are ready for nutirents, my feeding schedule is (every 6 days):
- GHE 3 part (half the dose used for hydro)
- Biohumus (they got that last week - as I mentioned, it's organic and practically impossible to overdose)
- PH balanced water

Maybe the clones (rooting for ~2 weeks and now nearly 2 weeks veg) already want more food? My head is pretty fuck up at the moment and not sure what to do:
- flush
- feed them
- flush with 1/4 dose of GHE 3 part

Im sure a foliar feed won't do any harm, so I'll go for that too (or just that for now?). About the PH - I'm not sure if it's a problem, but my PH won't go anywhere below 7.. the cal-mag should help bringing it down?

God i hate soil.


6" away is good.

Good luck & b-safe

It's not that bad (my third run in soil & third indoor at all - so no major success yet), but after the next one I'm thinking of going vertical and hydro (the octagon DIY from ICmag is nearly finished ), we'll see what happens. About the light hight - here comes the 6" figure again, is this some "universal" hight for tubes? Im also wondering are the double 36W tubes (6500K) enough for them vegging - the double tube T8 (probably ) is above 12 pots (the space is 3' x 1') - what would you say?

Thanks fellas, cya soon I guess!

 

[freeride high]

most lights put out the best PAR(photosynthetically active radiation) from 6-12" away. 1" is very close, regardless of lumen output.
70w of cfl isnt much, but it should work for you.

 

[brainlab]

in my experience when i clone to small cups or peat pellets , and plant in diffrent soil when the clones root. they seem to get a "ph transplant shock" so i allways pot them in small pots to begin with and the clones usely looks like that the first week then they get use to the diffrent ph and start to take off ..... not saying thats you case but to be considered, can be alot to take for small plants.

hope they come around

 

[fifa]

I would not worry about your plants being too close to T-5s, if you have good ventilation. just watch for burn on the top. Your pH is at 7 which is fairly good for soil, the ideal range being from 6-7. I am stumped as to why your plants are experiencing this. What is your temp? Also the amount of different elements can effect the absorption of others. For example, Mg can get locked out by having too much Calcium, Chlorine or ammonium in your soil/water.

 

[fifa]

Also, I always use DWC hydro. it is a very efficient easy indoor method.

 

[gmanwho]

A up Centrum - I didn't get you, what do you mean by "T8 or lower"?
In my first post I wrote that I have a dual T5 (2 x 36W tubes ). Now Im pretty sure it's a T8 (for fucks sake!), cause the tubes I have are 120cm long, and 36W (T5 is 85cm and 39W), so turns out it's the old fucking T8 (but still - I really didn't feel much heat from it). I don't know now, maybe it is too low?


So, I should go for a 6" gap between the small dudes and the tubes?



Thanks for bumping in gman, you have any idea what could have caused the mag def.? As soon as the plants are ready for nutirents, my feeding schedule is (every 6 days):
- GHE 3 part (half the dose used for hydro)
- Biohumus (they got that last week - as I mentioned, it's organic and practically impossible to overdose)
- PH balanced water

Maybe the clones (rooting for ~2 weeks and now nearly 2 weeks veg) already want more food? My head is pretty fuck up at the moment and not sure what to do:
- flush
- feed them
- flush with 1/4 dose of GHE 3 part

Im sure a foliar feed won't do any harm, so I'll go for that too (or just that for now?). About the PH - I'm not sure if it's a problem, but my PH won't go anywhere below 7.. the cal-mag should help bringing it down?



It's not that bad (my third run in soil & third indoor at all - so no major success yet), but after the next one I'm thinking of going vertical and hydro (the octagon DIY from ICmag is nearly finished ), we'll see what happens. About the light hight - here comes the 6" figure again, is this some "universal" hight for tubes? Im also wondering are the double 36W tubes (6500K) enough for them vegging - the double tube T8 (probably ) is above 12 pots (the space is 3' x 1') - what would you say?

Thanks fellas, cya soon I guess!

The GHE im not sure what difference is between the euro and standard GH.

Standard gh i have used in soil and coco, a formula of 6mil micro and 9mil bloom per gallon. 6/9, simple, clones and youngins like half strength. If you use the 6/9, and the 6/9 formula is the same for the ghe as standard gh, and u then get deficencys early to mid veg, its time for 6/9, not half strength anymore. PH at 6.0.

6/9 ratio taken from head and rez. it works. the sched rez has in the rez forums works very well. a good starting point.

No gh grow needed, as the gh mico is like 5-1-0 plus trace elements, i think or very close. and the bloom is 0-4-5 plus some trace elements or very close. or its like micro 5-0-1 and bloom 0-5-4. it equates to 5-5-5 when mixed together in equal pats, i believe.

every 6 days maybe too long in between feedings to wait, they maybe ready for abit more food. But whatever the case you dont want the medium always too wet, u always want a drying up period.

By those pictures,at that stage they should probably be fine with 750ppm at .7 conversion or about 1.ec. the 6/9 ratio i believe is about 900 ppm when mixed with 1 gal.

why your ph is 7 of runoff i dont know. its more then likely the feed you giving has enough mag in it, its your ph of you medium thats not allowing the mag to be absorbed.

this is exactley why i do not run soil or coco anymore. When i want my hydro feed at 5.4-5.9 for veg and 5.6-6.0 in bloom, i ph it and i dont have to wrorry about my medium changeing the ph on me, period. 5.6 is what i feed, 5.6 is what the roots get, not what the medium changes it.

Calibate your meters often and never put the used solution back into the container. that will throw off all your future calibrations from then on.

PH off, high levels of na k ca will block mg from being absorbed.

B-safe

 

[gmanwho]

its a cut an paste, i have no credit for this ratio. but it works well and as i said is a great starting point.

Rez sced cut an pasted from the rezipe

You've been asking exactly how I do what I do,with ferts, for a good long time.
This is a slightly generalized recipe for anybody to follow,based on my decade-plus with GenHy's Flora Series.
It does smokin' good for me,your results may vary.
I'm always tweaking the above,and you should,too.



==The Recipe==


(All Products are GenHydro,pH at 6.0)
(All measurements are per gal.)
6ml flora micro
9ml flora bloom
5ml Floralicious (grow) (during week 3 of a 4-5week,24-on,veg cycle.)

Week 5,transition into flower-6.0 pH h20 at <100ppm


Based on 63 day 12/12 Flower Cycle:

Day 1-14
6ml micro
9ml bloom

Day 15-21
6ml micro
9ml bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 22-28
9ml Bloom

Day 29-35
9ml Bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 36-52
9 ml Bloom

Day 50-63 (Flush)
6.0 pH h20 at <100 ppm



B-safe

 

[ericsson]

Hi again gman,
thanks for the post and rezipe! I gave them some crushed dolomite (30% CaO, over 20% MgO) with water yesterday (foliar and a bit in the dirt) - I'll check on the small guys on saturday and see if anything changed. Im not sure if there is any difference between GH and GHE, but I'm wondering about the 6/9 formula you mentioned. On the bottles is says to apply half the hydro dosage when using the nurtients in soil. But, for example - for the first 2 weeks (cuttings in hydro) it's the same for hydro / soil:
Flora Grow: 1,2ml/gal
Flora Bloom: 1,2ml/gal
Flora Micro: 1,2ml/gal

Now the soil chart (3 week veg):
Flora Grow: 3,2ml/gal
Flora Bloom: 3,2ml/gal
Flora Micro: 3,2ml/gal

The soil chart (flowering 4-6):
Flora Grow: 4,1ml/gal
Flora Bloom: 2,8ml/gal
Flora Micro: 1,4ml/gal

The soil chart (flowering 6-9):
Flora Grow: 1,4ml/gal
Flora Bloom: 4,1ml/gal
Flora Micro: 2,8ml/gal

HERE is the chart (I've just converted it into gal's for you), so what I'm worried about is if I use the 6/9 formula, won't I totally smoke the fuckers? Plus, where I'm living now I can't get a hand of Kool-Bloom or Floralicious, so I'd have to keep it out of the schedule. Do you think that trying out the 6/9 rezipe starting with half strength (3/6) would be a good idea in my case? Should I try to do (and what?!) somthing to fight with my pH? Or just keep on balancing the water at 5.8 - 6.0? This is some really fuck up shit I got here!!

Freeride, Brainlab & fifa - also THC for throwing in your 2 cent's - I've reseted my thermo/hydro on wednesday, so this saturday I'll know the max and min's exactly. That God damn pH isn't giving me a beak though..

keep it smokin'
eric

 

[hazy]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that your problem has nothing to do with your light.

Looks like iron def. Because it's affecting the top leaves. Iron is an immobile element and won't move from old leaves, but shows up in the new growth. Iron could be reduced by too much Phosphorous. Or perhaps your high pH is locking out iron. High pH and calcium lock out iron.

 

[ericsson]

A up hazy!
not bad thinking, as "THE CHART" says, that both Iron and Manganiun get locked out when pH goes above 6.6 (but then again, below 6.6 P, Ca & Mg aren't avalible, so it's kinda fuck up ain't it?), my pH is 7+ (can't get control of the bitch). Now I'm starting to wonder, since I gave them dolomite (with both Ca and Mg), will it not raise the pH even more? How to start bringing it back down (guess 6.5 - 6.6 would be ideal) - as I said, pH balanced water (even around 5.8) didn't seem to have any effect.. WTF?