Large cash purchases

[Puffaluffagus]

I wanted to see if anyone here has ever bought something costing more then 10'000, and paid for it with cash.

The reason I ask is that anytime you buy something and pay with cash greater then 10K, or even deposit that much in your bank, they automatically have to file a report about it.
There is a CTR(cash transaction report) and the IRS 8300 form, which is basically the same thing, but includes a box that will be checked for "suspicious transaction".
The reason this is done is so they can prevent money laundering, or terrorism funding.
Many times this form is filed without you being told so, in fact it is against the law for the bank to tell you that they are filing the form, or even talk about it in detail.

So, if you, or anyone you knew has made a cash(legit business) transaction, or even deposited that much cash, I wanted to find out if anything ever came of it(visit from IRS, audited by IRS, or talked to by homeland security)
It looks like these forms get filed everyday all across America, and I wanted to find out if it's just a technicality, and nothing ever comes from it, or if people who have done this have ever been contacted by any agency after doing so.

So, if you or someone you know has made a (legit business) cash deal, or deposited cash in the amount greater then 10K, did anything ever come out of it?

 

[Easy7]

Odd amounts that are small are a good way of depositing large amounts of cash. Don't know about bonds but ever see "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"?

 

[justpassnthru]

The only problem I have found with cash transactions is: Spending it. You have to prove, where you got it. I am not sure if it was a vendor form or the IRS it was submitted to?

 

[Treetroit City]

I'm aware of that happening and 10G is the limit.

However, here in Detroit the ex mayor has been on trial for corruption and the news reported one day that the feds produced one of these forms for a what I believe was an auto purchase.

The weird thing was they said he put down 9G cash, apparently trying to avoid the CTR. I can't recall whether the suspicious box was checked or not.

 

[Puffaluffagus]

Odd amounts that are small are a good way of depositing large amounts of cash. Don't know about bonds but ever see "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"?

No good.
Depositing small amounts (like 3k) at a time over a series of weeks generates the same form.
Using cashiers checks, money orders, travelers checks, etc, is the same thing, these items are considered "monetary instruments" and are viewed the same as cash

Like I said in the OP, many times no one will tell you that they are filing the report, in fact the bank legally can't tell you.

This is something I've looked into at great length, so I'm not so much interested in hearing peoples approaches to doing it, as I am in hearing from people who actually have done it, and finding out if they ever received any kind of follow up on it.(visit from IRS, audited, etc...)

All comments are welcome, but I'm really looking for experienced ones.

 

[megayields]

Puff,

In a past life I was a broker with Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, I once had a client who owned a laundrymat. He once brought in (literally) a pillow case full of cash and wanted to deposit into his account. I explained to him I could NOT accept that large a cash deposit and if he went ahead I would have to file a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report) on him, he took his bag o cash with him lol....ANY banking institution will report deposit's over $10K. (actually we were trained to look for cash "suspicious" cash deposits of ANY amount)

We had training at BOTH ML and MS in watching for peoplle depositing anything close to $5K in cash, or "regular" deposit's of larger cash amount's and fill out a SAR ...EVEN IF IT WAS LESS THAN $10K.

Keep that in mind, also I have a friend who ran several auto dealershhip's they ALL now report large cash purchases for automobiles, especially sports cars, Porsches, BMW's etc...NOW if you "legitimately" made that cash and have the receipts (and more importantly EXPENSE receipts for said business) then your fine.

I have a restaurant friends who deposit regularly that amount AND MORE into their bank accounts but every time they do, that clerk has to fill out a SAR form on the deposit it and make a note in the computer. Nothing has ever happened to him, I belive he told me once his CPA has to fill out a form rexplaining why he has such a high level of cash deposit's but that is the extent of intrusion into his life so far(?)

I have never known anyone who has been interogated or interviewed AFTER a SAR report was issued on their bank account, but I have heard of people getting caught for money laundering (read several articles and was given report during training) especially the idea of "smurfing" (depositing small amounts of cash into MANY different bank accounts) they have computer programs to search for those type of deposits now.

Now.....your thread bring up a SLEW of questions I have but I do not know if the violate the TOU so I will keep them to myself ....for now.

 

[myiqis55]

I have a friend thats a branch manager at a huge bank. 5k the report is the "tellers" decision, but by default they always file. After 10k its mandatory.

Thats at a bank. Normally where you spend your money the ppl there aren't interested in filing reports, more interested in future business. Also, usually, when you pay cash no one ask any questions.

A "barber" bought my buddies car for 25k cash in 20s. I asked him laughing, "you've been saving your tips for like 5 years?" hahahahaha

 

[Puffaluffagus]

I'm aware of that happening and 10G is the limit.

However, here in Detroit the ex mayor has been on trial for corruption and the news reported one day that the feds produced one of these forms for a what I believe was an auto purchase.

The weird thing was they said he put down 9G cash, apparently trying to avoid the CTR. I can't recall whether the suspicious box was checked or not.

Yep, that's called "structuring"
Say you bring a cashiers check for 9K, and 9K cash, and it gets investigated, now you are looking at a charge for "structuring" basically trying to get around the CTR.

It's hard to get around, what I want to know is with the amount of forms filed each day, do they really take the time to do an in depth investigation of each one, or is it just a formality, and if just a one time thing, no follow up should be expected.

 

[Easy7]

They probably look at large cash withdrawls and debits too. I say spend the cash on your life style and deposit your normal income and save that. We found 40k cash when a family member died, it was all deposited in small amounts into different accounts.........no follow up knock n talks.

 

[Puffaluffagus]

I have a friend thats a branch manager at a huge bank. 5k the report is the "tellers" decision, but by default they always file. After 10k its mandatory.

Thats at a bank. Normally where you spend your money the ppl there aren't interested in filing reports, more interested in future business. Also, usually, when you pay cash no one ask any questions.

A "barber" bought my buddies car for 25k cash in 20s. I asked him laughing, "you've been saving your tips for like 5 years?" hahahahaha

Good stuff.
I know most private parties don't even know such a form exists, let alone file one.

What I'm talking about is a purchase from an actual business, like a car dealership.
I was reading an article about the IRS cracking down on car dealerships to make sure that they file the form for every 10K+ transaction they do.
If they get a CTR audit, and it comes up that they haven't been filing forms for every transaction in excess of 10K, they can get fined $250'000 for it.

So, who has deposited 10K+ in cash, or bought something from a business for 10K+ in cash, and did you get any kind of call/letter/visit from anyone(IRS, homeland security, etc...)
Or did you never hear another thing after making the deposit/purchase(from business)

Thanks for all the great responses so far.
Keep'em coming
I'll give out all the rep I can for good answers

 

[Skip]

FinCEN requires a SAR to be filed by a financial institution when the financial institution suspects insider abuse by an employee; violations of law aggregating over $5,000 where a subject can be identified;[clarification needed] violations of law aggregating over $25,000 regardless of a potential subject; transactions aggregating $5,000 or more that involve potential money laundering or violations of the Bank Secrecy Act; computer intrusion; or when a financial institution knows that a customer is operating as an unlicensed money services business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report

 

[lee van keef]

No good.
Depositing small amounts (like 3k) at a time over a series of weeks generates the same form.

(To OP or anyone that knows.)

Would depositing ~15k per year into a savings account in sporadic varying cash deposits of ~$500 be likely to garner any attention?

This account is not allowed to build but is used to pay off a credit card issued by the same bank.

(hypothetically)

 

[Puffaluffagus]

Now.....your thread bring up a SLEW of questions I have but I do not know if the violate the TOU so I will keep them to myself ....for now.

I would love to hear your further thoughts on the matter.
I would ask that if any of the mods find something in violation of the TOU, to please just delete it, and not take actions against the poster.
I don't want to see anyone get banned or suspended as a result of participating in my thread.

I think this is a good topic that many of us can benefit from discussing.

 

[coloradcannabis]

I would assume the information you are asking about is highly guarded as to not allow people time and access to the system which they hope to defeat.

The more information the IRS and law enforcement release about how they track and find monetary criminals the easier it will be for said criminals to circumvent the process. So it is in the best interest of these government bodies to keep as much of the process secret as possible. I learned alot from this thread already thanks to the personal experiences of some members, thanks! I fear you won't get to much more information from ICMAG.

I would bet even used car dealers would care about cash transactions because they have books and taxes to pay as well so if they just get extra cash with no CTR paperwork they might be catching the audit. So it's likely that most people you don't know well will fill out the form on you even below $10K just to cover their ass. I would take their cash, fill out the CTR and not say a word. You the car dealer get cash, sell a car, and follow all laws so your squeaky clean.

 

[chaseaftaracksy]

great thread and interesting topic... interesting so a check is treated like cash therefore if one were to write a 15,000 check lets say for a car. does this then get flagged and investigated cuz surely if the money was illegal u would not be writing the check or buying the car? is it worth the irs or whatever agency to investigate everything over 10 gs? repeatedly yes they will, however i have bought a car that was over said amount with no employment record when i was younger and i never had one issue or anyone come speak to me. This leads me to believe that there has to be a certain threshold that is surpassed repeatedly over and over again. uncle sam wants his regardless whether u got in blood or in the mud or if it was given to you... Great Thread imo

 

[Puffaluffagus]

Anyone who has info on the topic, but is not comfortable posting in the thread, please hit me up with a PM or rep message.
Thanks

 

[GMT]

In the uk its 5k. I can tell you with a lot if experience, no one in the auto industry is reporting anything thats gonna cost them a sale. there are thing the business can do, and will do to avoid such problems. A customer can, and has walked in with 27k cash, no forms, just a big thankyou for your custom.

 

[GMT]

On a side note, want your vw bullet proofing?, paying in cash, yes sir that wont be a problem.

 

[Puffaluffagus]

great thread and interesting topic... interesting so a check is treated like cash therefore if one were to write a 15,000 check lets say for a car. does this then get flagged and investigated cuz surely if the money was illegal u would not be writing the check or buying the car?

Interestingly enough, a personal check, is not considered the same as cash, and generates no forms when you write them.
But a cashiers check, money order, and things of that nature that you used cash to get, are still treated the same as cash.

So if you walk into your dealership and write a personal check for 15K, no form, but if you give them a cashiers check for 15K, they will have to fill out the form on it.

Like I said before, many places won't even tell you they are filling out the form, they just do it.
A car dealer is a good example, like someone else said, they do not want to do anything to sour the deal, so they are not likely to say up front that if you pay cash in excess of 10K, they will file the form, instead they just take your money, thank you for your business, and then go ahead and file the form a few days later.

 

[benzo]

Puff, a ctr is public knowledge, and banks are allowed to tell you that one is being filled out due to the large cash amount.

Most people figure it out once they get asked for their ssn, occupation etc.


When filling a SAR out, you must wait for the person to leave the building. And you CANNOTinform them about it...