Landrace Article - Painting The Road Ahead

[charlie garcia]

there is still good cannabis around picked up from the lands, but is certain and all agree most have changed with the time, other races got diluted or extinct and so but I personally had lot of fun working with plenty of "races or lines from the land".. even sometimes results turned great. Guess terms of purity and so can be discussed obviously but still is one of most interesting approachings to new breeding things under my perspective. I cant complain am fully satisfized with what I smoke. And my tastes may differ with my friends... or not

Grow offprings, understand the line, and go deeper in searching and selecting for quality as first criteria if it exists and take it with patient. Maybe you wont find old extra mythical crazy potency things, is getting harder and harder but still very good cannabis can be found and bred from and with this. Vigour, health, flavours, potencies can be very positive traits and breeding criterias have and are changing with the time as well.

I agree if we talk about scales of potency compared to the old LSD like type of highs old people talk about from different continents. But in all terms of life there are many scales, not just minimum versus maximum, everything versus nothing, black versus white. Here we dont drink wine due its strength but due its quality, flavours, aromas, colours, how well make you feel with meat or fish and so, so many subtle or obvious differences which enrich your perception and consumption. If you want the strongest alcohol you can drink it, is cheap.

If message is do nothing, best is lost, I deeply and fully disagree. I want to think thats not the message

peace and respect
best

 

[Ras Pablo]

Sweet aticle Darwin

there is still good cannabis around picked up from the lands, but is certain and all agree most have changed with the time, other races got diluted or extinct and so but I personally had lot of fun working with plenty of "races or lines from the land".. even sometimes results turned great. Guess terms of purity and so can be discussed obviously but still is one of most interesting approachings to new breeding things under my perspective. I cant complain am fully satisfized with what I smoke. And my tastes may differ with my friends... or not

Grow offprings, understand the line, and go deeper in searching and selecting for quality as first criteria if it exists and take it with patient. Maybe you wont find old extra mythical crazy potency things, is getting harder and harder but still very good cannabis can be found and bred from and with this. Vigour, health, flavours, potencies can be very positive traits and breeding criterias have and are changing with the time as well.

I agree if we talk about scales of potency compared to the old LSD like type of highs old people talk about from different continents. But in all terms of life there are many scales, not just minimum versus maximum, everything versus nothing, black versus white. Here we dont drink wine due its strength but due its quality, flavours, aromas, colours, how well make you feel with meat or fish and so, so many subtle or obvious differences which enrich your perception and consumption. If you want the strongest alcohol you can drink it, is cheap.

If message is do nothing, best is lost, I deeply and fully disagree. I want to think thats not the message

peace and respect
best

Amen charlie!!! As you said most are extinct other very diluited...but best cannabis still alive, you need the right sources and the be patient.
As you said, we don't drink wine to get drunk, just for it taste, flavour, aromas, terpenes and it's original character.

Take care bro! It's always a pleasure read you bro

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Sorry but why was GreenintheThumb being such a negative nancy about this issue? He was talking as if wat Darwin was writing about was stupid & a futile attempt to preserve genetics. Basically that he shouldnt even bother. Darwin never claimed to be the leader & revolutionary who can 'save' the cannabis plant. He only wants to do wat he can within his own means & is encouraging others to do the same for, what i can see, is a pretty harmless cause. This project & attitude isnt exactly going to hurt the cannabis community is it?

He asked me to come in here through pm. He doesn't have the means to preserve the landraces, and if he was honest with himself he'd know that.

As far as i could tell, wat Darwin was trying to convey is that he wants to help preserve landrace genetics & encourage others to do so to because landraces help to create the modern day, artificially bred cannabis that we know & love. Landraces are the building blocks that Mr. Nice, DJ Short & Tom Hill have used for decades to create award winning strains & you're saying that "most of the landrace populations are DEAD and or CONTAMINATED" & call him a "noob". Righto...

People who have only enjoyed cannabis for a year ARE noobs. Most landrace populations are DEAD and or CONTAMINATED. Where are the massive production fields of the 70s? What happened to all that great import pot? A lot of it's gone, people all over the world have heard of skunk and like to try it. Strainhunting morons bring modern cultivars to landrace areas for the locals to try out. You don't think that pollen spreads about? I hate to say it but the DEAs eradication efforts have been mostly successful.

You're saying that there's no way to increase genetic diversity in our lifetimes so we shouldnt even bother. Rather, you're suggesting that the only project that would be at all worthwhile would be to try to return cannabis genetics to their stone age ancestors, before natural selection took place. Darwin's suggesting that we preserve landraces as they are right now where only natural selection genetics exist and where environmental factors have made them how they are. He's trying to keep the genetics at that pure level before human artificial selection.

Penguin

You're the one talking about the stone age ancestors and praising them as if they'll save us all. Natural selection ALWAYS takes place, and landraces are worth smoking because of human selection not just environmental factors. The genetics at their pure level before human selection were called HEMP.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

It’s all good to have differences of opinions guys, just try remaining as polite and civil as possible I don’t want too much stone throwing here that’s not what it’s about.

@ Greeninthethumb – I know this isn’t the end all of preservation. For sure, I can’t preserve the entirety of the genetics that each landrace strain has through this project, and that’s not my intent to begin with. I full realise with the limited resources available to me, I’d be unable to do so, hell even if I owned a 1000ha farm and started with 1000s of seeds from each line I would still be unable to still preserve 100% of the genetics. The main objective is to try and hold onto at least a portion of each landraces genetics and continue its survival into the future, though it won’t be preserved in its entirety, that’s just no feasible, though it is an important goal we should be aiming for in the long run.

What other options are there though for the individual breeder/grower who just wants to make sure that these landraces are available for others in the future. From what you’ve said mate it’s as if the only time anyone should bother at all is if they can some how preserve every single gene of every single landrace strain, if they can’t do this then it’s as if you’re saying they shouldn’t even try… preserving some of the genes is still better than preserving none of them and letting the rest of the few strains left disappear even more.

i have asked you to come and give me your 2c mate as i value it for sure, but with while you've given plenty of critique it'd be good if you had some constructive criticism and some ideas/pointers. with respect, what are your suggestions then greeninthethumb? Where are you ideas and thoughts on the matter? you keep sort of stating that i'm doing it wrong, it's a waste of time etc but how would you do things then?

 

[LonelyNerd]

People who have only enjoyed cannabis for a year ARE noobs. Most landrace populations are DEAD and or CONTAMINATED. Where are the massive production fields of the 70s? What happened to all that great import pot?

you dont know the right people...

 

[Penguin59]

@ GreenintheThumb

He doesn't have the means to preserve the landraces, and if he was honest with himself he'd know that.

How many times does this have to be said to you, DARWIN NEVER SAID HE WANTS TO PRESERVE EVERY LANDRACE BY HIMSELF SINGLEHANDEDLY!!! He said he's going to do wat he can within his own means and is encouraging people who have greater means to do wat they can, and so on and so forth. Maybe with help, this project might be successful, maybe it wont but at least he wants to give it a shot. And wat do you suggest in return...oh that's right do nothing.

Also, why just quote entire paragraphs that i've written & then write your own paragraph in response as if to say everything i'm saying is wrong? It would have been better to highlight specific points that i've made & refute them individually. You cant just mass quote absolutely EVERYTHING i've said, otherwise people don't know exactly wat you're arguing against.

Also why would you say

He asked me to come in here through pm.

So because he asked you to review his article specifically, that somehow gives you the right to slam his project into the ground without any editing or suggestions or how to improve his article.

Again you've failed to give any suggestions or constructive criticism on this topic, merely "stop wat you're doing, dont try, you will ultimately fail and there's nothing you can do to change this outcome or improve your methods...just stop"

How's the weather up on your pedestal?
Penguin

 

[englishrick]

do we have any evidence that "most" landrace cannabis has been contaminated?,,,,

how would we quantifi this understanding?,,,has someone done tests on landrace for this?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

i have asked you to come and give me your 2c mate as i value it for sure, but with while you've given plenty of critique it'd be good if you had some constructive criticism and some ideas/pointers. with respect, what are your suggestions then greeninthethumb? Where are you ideas and thoughts on the matter? you keep sort of stating that i'm doing it wrong, it's a waste of time etc but how would you do things then?

How big's your garden and I'll tell you what you can reasonably accomplish.

My thoughts on landraces are that they should be as closely returned to their land of origin as soon as legalization is accomplished. Until then, their use isn't much until the next super bug or super pathogen emerges that most of our pool is susceptible to. Until then, most genes of interest have made their way into our drug pool.

Small growers/breeders should OP as much as possible during prohibition and mostly rely on selected moms for smoke.

IMO there's more than enough to clean up that's more useful to most indoor gardeners than the landraces. If you wanted to improve corn would you look at modern works or start over scouring mesoamerica for maize that's barely been domesticated?

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah but the thing is i'm not trying to "improve" cannabis as a whole per se, i'm not trying to take it to a new level. in my opinion it's probably maxed out already in what it has to offer us through selective breeding, i'm just interested in creating new, different, unique varieties of my own as well as many others are. if you lose those original building blocks you can't start from scratch and take things in your own direction as much as you want to. for instance. it'd be like comparing an original band to a dj. where the original band starts from scratch writing all their tunes on all their own instruments without using music that has already been created, compared to dj's who use entire sections, samples, remix current songs to make their own music. i'd argue the latter is no where near as unique, and has no where near the same potential at being unique, compared to the former.

people these days aren't interested in breeding up their own "strains" of corn, if they were then i'm sure they'd be interested in older lines as well as new ones of the corn.

also, i realise that a lot of the landraces one's able to purchase over the internet have probably already gone through a bottle neck even etc, where the breeders most likely a. didn't get the seed from their original environment, b. didn't use large numbers to breed the seed up in the first place (ie. 1000s of plants), i'd be surprised if they open pollinated more than 100 if that when making the seed for their companies. so my efforts here aren't necessarily to try and save the genome of each landrace, it's just to hold on to whatever genetics i can that are left in each line. you know?

anyway, much respect mate, i do appreciate your input.

darwin

 

[ShroomDr]

GreenThumbs point is a good one, many many many Landrace growers of the 70's have moved on to the stronger and quicker flowering plants made available in the 80's (See: Jamaican Lambsbread).

On top of that, its is foolish to think that a single person could keep these landraces as good representations of their parent stock. Open pollination in their given location is what has turned these plants into landraces, and you cant open pollinate with enough plants, with some other landrace in an adjacent area.

Its a great idea, but entirely implausible. There are serious flaws in this thought experiment, and pointing out that he's been smoking for 8 months only highlights his naivete.

also, i realise that a lot of the landraces one's able to purchase over the internet have probably already gone through a bottle neck

Which means your already painting with browns. You want a pashtun's pollen to mix with some equatorial Thai, creating a Jackson Pollock, but its just not the seed market reality.






-

 

[darwinsbulldog]

the main issue i think you guys are getting hung up on is that you think this article is talking about the conservation of landraces in their natural environments, i'm focusing on the conservation of landrace lines that may or may not have long been separated from their ancestors that once grew wild. this is not an effort to conserve the entire genome of every specific landrace line as it exists in the wild... i don't know how many times i have to repeat this. even if i had ample space, land, resources and time with infinite seeds etc i wouldn't be able to do a decent enough job for all the strains. that was never the intention. the intention was to make sure that some form of each landrace STRAIN that is available today through commercial means or others remains available for others and isn't lost through time. like afropips stuff, they've closed down, i still think their malawi gold their durban poison, their nigerian, their swazi red, are all important landrace lines worth conserving for the future. THOUGH I KNOW THESE LINES DON"T REPRESENT THE ENTIRE GENETICS OF THE ORIGINAL POPULATIONS IN THE WILD, DON"T CONSIST OF THE EQUIVALENT AMOUNT OF TRAITS/PHENOS ETC... i never suggested that they did, i just think they are worth conserving so that others will be able to grow them in the future. the issue you guys keep arguing about is one that i believe is important too and that we need to take action to conserve/preserve those populations in the wild of real landraces, i never suggested that one person could do so in their closet and again my intent is not to do so or even attempt it. so can we please move on from this point?!

 

[ShroomDr]

Its not that i think its a bad idea, hell its a noble one, but I believe in order to do it justice one would need a lot more of an investment than anyone with 8 months of smoking experience is ready to undertake.

Good Luck.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

well i'll be doing what i can in the present with what i have, rather than doing nothing

 

[GreenintheThumb]

so can we please move on from this point?!

Sure, where would you like to take us next?

 

[simple gardener]

bottleneck today, reconsolidate tomorrow.

 

[englishrick]

what do "we" want in the long-run?

i know what i want,,,,i want the ability to consume something desireable,,,all i gota do now is figure out what that means

 

[esbe]

great article darwin bro, looking forward to follow your work!

 

[oldbootz]

Genetic diversity doesn't increase.

LOL. So, im guessing that we're all still single cell amoebas then. Great that makes life much more simple.

 

[Bluenote]

I'd say that some folks are missing the point , Given the state of agricultural expansion etc,etc, some landraces won't get preserved within the structure of their native terroir. This is inevitable. And of course it's a foregone conclusion that it would be physically impossible for a single individual to be able to preserve *every* landrace , however those of us with the affinity for a specific strain can do our level best to attempt to preserve it.

A parallel from the beef industry , the 7 Families of Longhorns no longer run wild , but *all* seven families have been preserved in pure form , along with interbred with each other.........said genetic pool is *quite* often what the breeders of " Designer Cattle and Boutique Breeds" dip into when they need to restore vigor , either overall or a particular specific.

 

[oldbootz]

Genetics hybridize in the wild naturally as well. This is part of the natural processes.

Recently, blue wales have been found to be hybridizing with fin wales.

The greatest diversities are found a couple years after large scale natural disasters. This is because the surviving species have much more space to take over. The environments sometimes change due to these disasters as well which further encourages genetic shift to new parameters, but most genetic change that occurs is the hybridization that will occur due to the spreading of surviving species meeting up with suitable mates to hybridize with that would not have been there without the disaster "clearing out" large numbers of other species.

It is the environment that shapes the species.

Our grow areas are tweaked as close to our idea of perfect conditions as we can get them. This creates a homogenization of indoor grow environments throughout the world. Plants that we domesticate will change themselves through the years to accommodate these new conditions. They will lose some of their more wild traits even as passed from clone to clone. but as we breed with them they will change more drastically. Human selection is one point that we are already very aware of, but other changes will occur due to epistatic genetic variance where plants turn on and off certian genes according to their immediate environments and these genes are left on or off in their progeny.

An easy way to explain this is theoretically if you had to take 2 cuttings from the same plant, one cutting you planted in a dry warm place and only watered every 2-3 weeks and the other cutting you planted in a moist area watering every 3-5 days. after a year or so if you had to make seeds from both cuts you should see a difference in the seeds planted from each cut. The ones that came from the dry mother should do statistically better in the dry weather than the seeds from the plant kept in moist conditions.

This is, on a small scale, how environment can shape the genetics of species other than the Darwinist approach that nature just kills off what wont work. These thoughts were originally thought by Mendel and are only recently being verified by some research botanists today. There is a woman studying water reeds in Cape Town, South Africa that has just published her study to confirm this.