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Is the power factor in the OG growfaq true

Xtbudda

Xtbudda

Member
Thats interesting and sux if it is true.
Maybe that ballast in those housings are smaller and draw more. I am pretty sure the ballast in mine (security light with globe type) is bigger in size compared to those type styles.
 
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bluray22

New member
I was hoping that it's not a fact to. I hope someone would clear this up. A 150w hps using or requesting 400w is ridiculous. I want to hookup a setup with 300w (dual 150w hps) but according to what was stated in the growfaq I could be possibly be drawing 750 watts at startup! Somebody please tell methis is bull#%&*.
 
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gunnaknow

gunnaknow

Active member
The problem is, how do you know what the total input wattage is? You need to devide the lamp wattage by the total input wattage to get the power factor. A power factor of 0.9 or 90% is about as good as it gets, that is the target. Which would mean that a 400w system would use 440w in total.

The problem is finding out the total input wattage. This often isn't detailed on ballasts. Sometimes it just gives amps but according to one electrician that I spoke to, you can't calculate wattage from amps x volts with inductive loads like ballasts without also knowing what the cosign for the ballast is. Volts x amps on it's own only works on resistive loads, not inductive loads. Often, the only way to find out is to contact the manufacturer and request a data sheet. How many of you have ballasts that have the total input wattage clearly listed on the bottom of the ballast or in the manual that it comes with?
 
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G

Guest

When sizing circuits for HID loads or any loads really never go by the rated wattage,I've seen a lot of folks using ohms law to size circuits and thats just incorrect.If you go by the amperage nameplate rating,you'll never go wrong.Another words,a 1K fixture doesnt draw 1000 watts,it draws 9.5A at 120V and 4.2A at 240V normally.Forget power factors and all that good shit when sizing circuits,it draws a certain amount of amperage at a certain voltage and thats all you need to know.Whoever wrote that up knows about power factors but it a little confusing putting it in the context of sizing as circuit because one has nothing to do with the other.
 
Pactivist

Pactivist

Active member
learn not to burn

learn not to burn

an easy way to burn down your house is to ignore circuit loading and just hook up whatever you want, then turn it all on at once - poof - all your hard work will go up in smoke.
Personally I'd suggest that you use facts and not fiction or guesswork to set up an efficient (and safe) grow. If you look at the data plate that is required by U.S. law to be on all electrical products, you will find the current draw for the piece of equipment that you are using. This is the "continuous" draw, all electrical appliances draw from 10%-30% more current while "turning on" or "warming up" so it is VITAL that you stagger the on time of any high amperage or high wattage equipment such as hid lights. inrush current on things like HID lighting truly reach well beyond their rated current and can easily overload a circuit. Now while it may be difficult to figure the load with an inductive circuit, the hard part has already been done. The numbers on the data plate for the ballast are correct for the ballast when it is warmed up and running, but the inrush current will be much higher.
so it is best IMO to be very careful while building your room, either get a liscensed electrician to wire it for you, or learn a bit about electricity and wire it yourself. but never rush in blindly - hooking up 1000w lights, fans, pumps, and the like without at least a little forethought, and some electrical knowledge.
and finally tto answer the original question - yes - HID lights draw more watts than they put out, all the time. Most of the extra current they draw is wasted as heat. But the data plate will reflect this by having the rated current draw, and not the light output, in amps. or watts.
so to use this effectively you will need a couple of things,
#1 the rating of the circuit(s) that your room is on
#2 the current draw for each appliance that you will be hooking up.
#3 the knowledge to never exceed 80% of a circuit breakers(or fuse) rated output (ie. 16 amps on a 20 amp breaker)
#4 this link http://www.anderson-bolds.com/calculator.htm
E=volts, I=current, R=ohms, and W=watts
a little patience and some knowledge can save you from a major heartache.
peAce,
pacT
 
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bluray22

New member
Thank You everybody for your input. I've got to spend more on ballast and do this the right way to be efficient. I saw folks using those e-conolight 150w hps lamps and thought it would be great to try that out on the cheap, but that ain't goin to happen as cheaply as I thought. I might as well get ready to pay to play. I had a 150w hps goin 18/6 and I had switched over to 12/12 this week. Does anyone know where I can find a capacitor to put on my 150w hps?
 
stonewall

stonewall

Active member
SKELETOR said:
I've hooked up my amprobe to my circuit powering 3 1K vertizonatls at 240V and found the "power surge" to be instantaneous and negligible,it's blown way out of proportion to the reality of what really happens.It doesnt need to be taken into account when sizing your circuit at all.The nameplate rating in amps is there specifically to size circuit wiring,the wattage nameplate rating has nothing to do with circuit sizing,only the amperage rating.That rating has taken everything into account including the power factor and the so called surge at startup,the nameplate amperage rating is the only thing you need to concern yourself with when sizing circuits.Believe me I've done garages with dozens of high and lowbay lights,I wouldnt steer you wrong on this one.Now if you want to see a startup surge,checkout the draw on a 12 pole lighting contactor controlling umpteen HID fixtures lol
Click to expand...

I agree, except to say that the rule of thumb that says never load a circuit with a known load of more than 80% comes into play. In order to have some inrush current wiggle room on the overload protection rateing. That and the fact that most breakers and fuses are slow burn.

But to say one has nothing to do with the other is a contradiction. Power factor is the reason you should never use rated wattage to figure circuit current rateings.


With a normal power factor ballast you pull about twice as much amperage as you do with a high power factor ballast. With a npf ballast you use less electricity, but draw more current. Here is a chart that lists it all for you to see. : http://www.hubbell-ltg.com/products/psgpage/technical/hid_elec_data.pdf
 
G

Guest

Hey thanks for posting that in the right post lol.Yea I didnt bother to mention the continuous load thats been done to death lol,my purpose was to say if you go by the nameplate amperage rating in sizing your wire,you cant go wrong.What I said was the nameplate wattage has nothing to do with sizing circuits and thats been my experience all along,as long as you go by the nameplate rating in amps and never exceed 24A on a 10 wire 30A cir.,16A on a 12 wire 20A cir.,or 12A on a 14 wire 15A circuit all will be well.If you have a ballast with a lousy power factor it will be figured in the nameplate amperage rating,not the wattage rating
 
G

Grasso

Hello,

Warning: You are dealing with highschool physics. There are active (real) and reactive (imaginary) current. The power factor equals the former divided by the sum of both. Professional consumers of energy must pay for reactive currents and heat hence for instance they run their motors on rotary currents. Private consumers of energy must only pay for the heat. At least in Europe all electrical devices above 100 watts must have a high power factor, what in the instance of metal vapour lights is usually archieved by a big capacitor (with a certain exact capacity) connected in parallel to the lamp circuit.

Uli
 
G

Guest

i veg with one of those very 150 watts from e-conolight150 watts x10 percent for the ballast=165 watts x 18 hrs per day x 15 cent pkwh divided by 1000 = 44 cents per18 hrs x 30=13.20 per month...i think...little high and didnt use a calculator

bluray22 said:
Thank You everybody for your input. I've got to spend more on ballast and do this the right way to be efficient. I saw folks using those e-conolight 150w hps lamps and thought it would be great to try that out on the cheap, but that ain't goin to happen as cheaply as I thought. I might as well get ready to pay to play. I had a 150w hps goin 18/6 and I had switched over to 12/12 this week. Does anyone know where I can find a capacitor to put on my 150w hps?
Click to expand...
 
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stonewall

stonewall

Active member
Does anyone know where I can find a capacitor to put on my 150w hps?
Click to expand...


The capacitor used will have to be specific to your ballast. There are multiple possibilities, so You will have to give more specifics, like a make and model number, to get a proper answer.
 
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bluray22

New member
That's 1400 watts to startup two 150w hps lamps and to operate them both i'm tying up 1030 watts for two small lights there has to be something wrong here. http://www.jobsite-generators.com/power_calculators.html
That's with a NPF econolight non capacitor 150w hps econolight. Bargain me ass.

4.40 Startup Amps =
731.5968 watts

3.10 operating Amps =
515.4432 watts :fsu:
 
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stonewall

stonewall

Active member
You are only charged for the active power/watts, even with ballasts with normal power factor, but you are drawing more current than you would if you had a high power factor. The active/input watts for the reactor ballast with npf is the same as it is for the same ballast with hpf. For the reactor ballast a 52 microfarad capacitor is used and wired into the circuit as shown in this link: http://www.venturelighting.com/VLPS/BallastDataSheets/HPS/V90B1422H.pdf


and you calculations are off, you must have used the three phase calculator.
volts X amps X power factor = active watts
120 X 3.1 X .5(npf) = 186 active watts

120 X 1.72 X .9(hpf) = 186 active watts

Your electric company only charges you for the active watts you use.
 
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