Is it possible that reality is not what you think?...yes?/no?...lol

[southflorida]

ok, southflorida, it's clear that you're going to be closed minded on this. I hoped for something different.

You stated that something was logically impossible. I gave an example of how it didn't have to be logically impossible. You changed the conditions of your original statement and tossed out my evidence because it didn't fit those conditions. And then you proceed to make extreme, absolute statements about science being BS and physical reality not existing, yet with no evidence of your own. Sounds like a game to me, not a discussion.

Sac Beh, I am aware that there are other possibilities, and the
question was not to hear what they are. I was wondering if
someone that believes only in the cause-effect and simultaneously
believes that physical reality is all there is can explain what I asked
in that OP to which you responded.

You are not one of those people, so there is nothing to really
discuss in relation to what you answered. You are a person that
doesn't believe in the cause-effect and simultaneously that there
is only physical reality. You obviously believe that there are
non-physical realities/demensions (as I do) - but I was looking for
an explanation from someone that has a different view from you
and me. Maybe no one will respond like that, because the illogic
in the cause-effect combined with ONLY physical reality being
a reality will stop them from answering.

 

[turbolaser4528]

Okay, here's one for the cause-and-affect believers, which pretty
much defines the current scientific model believed in our culture.
Would like to hear what those think of the following statement:

The thought behind objective causality confirms that everything must
be preceded by its cause...right?

But, must everything have a cause? By this I am asking does our current
physical reality (the Universe) have a cause? And by this, I'm not talking
about the Big Bang, since it is not the cause, but only the consequence
of what was there before it sort of blew its top. By this, I'm talking about
the first thing that appeared, whatever the hell that was!

If the answer is NO, then one immediately leaps to invoking mystical
beginnings. If the answer is YES, then the beginning is a logical
impossibility.

There can, by definition be no beginning if everything must have a cause.

By the logic of causality, beginnings are illogical...period!

The logic of causality requires (because we do exist...right?) the
initial existence from which we are derived to erupt spontaneously
from nothing.

Clearly, the notion of objective causality must violate its own logic
in order to get started!

Now, if anyone has a logical answer to this, I would really like to
hear it. Because if there is no logical answer, then the cause-effect
belief is simply a false assumption

If it is false, and our beginning did not have a cause-effect behind
it, then where the hell did we come from?

Please take into account that saying everything has always been
and always will be is about as absurd, and reality can't be built
on top of something that is infinite and boundless.

This is simply running away from an answer. It is what religion mostly
uses saying God has always been and always will be, and now throw
that $20 in the freaking dish going around. Don't you know we do
have plenty of monthly expenses that we have to cover!!!

So, if both of these approaches are illogical, where did everything
come from, what is the true nature of reality???

This is an important question, because if you believe one of the
above, you are most likely basing your viewpoint on a false assumption,
which makes the foundation on which you are standing a little
shaky, at least when you read these kind of things.

Please notice, in both cases the beginning is mystical.

Obviously, the universe was created by a supreme being or entity.

Man's logic and reasoning can never even come close to fully explaining the extent or complexity or intelligence of our creator, or even the universe for that matter.


WE DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE WHAT GRAVITY IS !? IT BAFFLES MODERN SCIENTIESTS, FACT !

HOW CAN WE THEN SAY WE KNOW WHERE THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM AS SCIENTIFIC FACT ?

AND THEN HOW CAN WE PROVE OR DISPROVE THAT WE ARE CREATED ?


I just believe we are created by a "God", everything is too amazing and complex, and its what I feel.

 

[southflorida]

Obviously, the universe was created by a supreme being or entity.

Man's logic and reasoning can never even come close to fully explaining the extent or complexity or intelligence of our creator, or even the universe for that matter.


WE DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE WHAT GRAVITY IS !? IT BAFFLES MODERN SCIENTIESTS, FACT !

HOW CAN WE THEN SAY WE KNOW WHERE THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM AS SCIENTIFIC FACT ?

AND THEN HOW CAN WE PROVE OR DISPROVE THAT WE ARE CREATED ?


I just believe we are created by a "God", everything is too amazing and complex, and its what I feel.

The primary point I was trying to make with my post was that both
of the viewpoints have belief/assumption at the root. This is what
causes the whole problem in the first place.

Beliefs/assumption turn into facts/knowledge in our mind, and we
become convinced of them being the truth.

If we don't have the true knowledge and don't know the facts, then
we simply don't know who or what we are or who or what created us.

Everything in our "personal" reality is an interpretation, and this goes for
both subjective and objective, and if to this we add beliefs/assumptions
that other people (culture/society) program into us then we are
living in a fantasy/delusion not being able to make the distinction
between beliefs/assumptions and facts/knowledge.

 

[CrumpleZone]

Don't they call people who believe everything they feel to be true "psychotic"? Probably just sometimes

 

[paulo73]

Reality is filtered in many ways before our very limited senses can cope with it.
So i must say that reality as i see&sense it is an illusion made by me to protect me from a brave new world. We are just now scratching the surface
Nice pol btw

 

[Madrus Rose]

Tuk-tuk-tuk...this makes sense to me, and I'm not even a physicist

Thanks for posting that article, that is really an interesting read.

Forget exactly what this thread inspired me to google & found that unimaginatively rich site with so many interlinks ...think it was "perception & quantum physics" . Which drew me to post the original link here on the threadc to the reknowned quantum physicist David Bohm , member of the Royal Academy .

Great site really , absolutely a gold mine of info in this area
http://twm.co.nz/Bohm.html


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]David Bohm[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Bohm redefined physics.To him it was not about mere prediction and control, nor even mathematical equations. Though central to the enterprise, they are not its essence.Physics is about nature and our understanding of nature. For Bohm, its meaning and its message were creativity, the signature of an infinite universe. He saw it an undivided wholeness enfolded into an infinite background source that unfolds into the visible, material, and temporal world of our everyday lives. He said that thought can grasp the unfolded, but only something beyond thought - intuition, unmediated insight, intelligence - can EXPERIENCE the enfolded. [/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]At some point deep within the implicate order, thought and language fail us and only sacred silence can reveal truth. That silence is the language of the whole, the universe expressing itself through us in a life of integrity rather than fragmentation.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Bohm envisioned a transformation for those who grasped quantum mechanics in depth:a world of interconnection and interdependence, of direct and instantaneous communication, in which we have learned to harness the energies of compassion. Giving voice to the marvelous possibilities of a new future, he was himself an example of his ideas. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Many who knew him thought of him as a sort of "secular saint." He had a visionary quality that drew others to him and inspired them. He was transported by the clarity of his vision and energized by it to such a point that he swept his listeners with him into the orbit of the possible. He believed in a world that was meaningful, clear, intelligent andspiritual, where the implicate order is expressed as a living force in our explicate lives.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Madrus Rose]

"So we are not what we appear.
We have been blind a thousand years. ​

Wisdom older than the seers,
Beauty much too deep for tears,
And holy silence bursts the ears.
Ssh... The music of the spheres."
(author unknown) ​

The Song of Finis

• [SIZE=+1]The Song of Finis by Walter de la Mare[/SIZE]​

• 
  [SIZE=+1]At the edge of All the Ages [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]A Knight sate on his steed, [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]His armor red and thin with rust [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]His soul from sorrow freed; [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]And he lifted up his visor [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]From a face of skin and bone, [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]And his horse turned head and whinnied [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]As the twain stood there alone. [/SIZE]
  
  [SIZE=+1]No bird above that steep of time [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]Sang of a livelong quest; [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]No wind breathed, [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]Rest: [/SIZE]
• 
  [SIZE=+1]"Lone for an end!" cried Knight to steed, [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]Loosed an eager rein-- [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]Charged with his challenge into space: [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]And quiet did quiet remain. [/SIZE]
  

 

[turbolaser4528]

The primary point I was trying to make with my post was that both
of the viewpoints have belief/assumption at the root. This is what
causes the whole problem in the first place.

Beliefs/assumption turn into facts/knowledge in our mind, and we
become convinced of them being the truth.

If we don't have the true knowledge and don't know the facts, then
we simply don't know who or what we are or who or what created us.

Everything in our "personal" reality is an interpretation, and this goes for
both subjective and objective, and if to this we add beliefs/assumptions
that other people (culture/society) program into us then we are
living in a fantasy/delusion not being able to make the distinction
between beliefs/assumptions and facts/knowledge.

Going that direction, what do you absolutely know for certain, what is the bottom line truth ?

One philosopher said, "I think, therefore I am." I think it was Descartes. Even that simple fact is debatable, if we have a sense of self, do we exist ?

All that aside, I believe I exist in some form or another, and I believe that our existence is had to be engineered in some way. Everything is mathematical, like a video game. Arrangements of atoms and molecules in such specific patterns, the perfect distance of our Earth to the Sun, blows my mind. No way was this all by accident, just sayin ..

 

[hunt4genetics]

Last night I had a dream, that I was having a meal at some diner with a brown bear. The bear was wearing alot of jewlery, and had a diamond grill in it's mouth. We sat there eating, drinking, and laughing.


I didn't even remember I had this dream untill today at work after lunch. I wondered ,why I didn't find it odd at the time of the dream that I was having a meal with a bedazzled brown bear?

If I accepted that bizzare reality, and only questioned it after I woke up, Then who's to say that this bizzare reality isn't a dream that we will one day awake from?

 

[southflorida]

Last night I had a dream, that I was having a meal at some diner with a brown bear. The bear was wearing alot of jewlery, and had a diamond grill in it's mouth. We sat there eating, drinking, and laughing.


I didn't even remember I had this dream untill today at work after lunch. I wondered ,why I didn't find it odd at the time of the dream that I was having a meal with a bedazzled brown bear?

If I accepted that bizzare reality, and only questioned it after I woke up, Then who's to say that this bizzare reality isn't a dream that we will one day awake from?

This is a dream, but only has a different rule set.

For example, in my dreams I can fly, in life obviously I can't.

The only difference is the rule set, which is basically PHYSICS.

Except for that, there is no distinction, which basically points
at the interesting thing. This life is a subjective reality, and can
be viewed as a dream, or a virtual reality, or whatever you want
to call it, but it is not objective.

The only reason it looks and feels objectives is because our awareness
can make distinctions between one thing and another.

Just think about what you do when you go to touch a rock or
water. You are making distinctions. The water feels wet, the
rock feels hard, and rough on the edges, and kind of warm after
laying here in the hot sun.

All distinctions. Everything is a distinction. This is how consiousness,
which is all there is, as a single structure, has created many elements
and these elements are interacting between each other.

They are interacting between each other through making distinctions.

I haven't been here for a while, and I arrive to check out what
is going on in the lounge and find that this thread has been
bumped after such a long time (over 5 months).

This shows we are all a part of one consciousness, and we can
communicate on levels that have to do with us not knowing what
we don't know.

Strange huh?

 

[devilgoob]

the answers are two-dimensional.

not everything is so black-and-white.

Reality and even it's definition is always in question. It always seems to be a majority what reality is or an answer, which may bring us further from the truth or closer.

Accepting that there is no real answer or that you are answering for yourself right now would be acceptable to my reality, but my reality is not your reality, so you must also be right.

 

[devilgoob]

With the distinction I guess it's just a bunch of waves interacting with waves.

Stare at the floor and you start loosing vision in places. Your waves eventually do that. The object does not change, you do. By distinction a change must occur and an event happens. Things happening, moving, interacting seems to be key here. If they weren't doing that they would be at a singularity.

Also I believe the first post is talking about DMT, if it's not, then he is doing a good job of convincing me to try it.

 

[spacecasejay]

so doea this mean the earth is not flat?????????????

 

[FreezerBoy]

Obviously, the universe was created by a supreme being or entity.

Obviously? You need to provide some serious explanation for that. In 5,000,000 years of human history, there's never been a single piece of evidence or even a mild suggestion that "god" exists. It's called faith for a reason and the reason is, there's no reason to believe.

 

[ete23]

I believe in my own personal version of "God". But, for how far we've come in the last Century I think we can exploit resources pretty well.

But, I think everything that happens, happens 100% in reality. NOTHING can be proven to exist outside the laws of nature/the universe. I think Nature governs itself. The continuous moment of NOW, Creation.

I think "God" is the singularity experiencing itself both inwardly and outwardly through the manifestation of both physical and non-physical substance. A single 'Thread' of consciousness that 'runs' through everything in existence and everything that could ever exist.

 

[longearedfriend]

not touching this one

 

[joeuser]

I believe in my own personal version of "God". But, for how far we've come in the last Century I think we can exploit resources pretty well.

But, I think everything that happens, happens 100% in reality. NOTHING can be proven to exist outside the laws of nature/the universe. I think Nature governs itself. The continuous moment of NOW, Creation.

I think "God" is the singularity experiencing itself both inwardly and outwardly through the manifestation of both physical and non-physical substance. A single 'Thread' of consciousness that 'runs' through everything in existence and everything that could ever exist.

I'm not trying the be a douchebag and ruin your day...but WTF are you (and others) making it so fucking complicated?

Life happened...somehow. Some all powerful God didn't do it. Because IF he did...then HE would HAVE to have been created by another...more powerful..."God"...get it? When you go the "Supreme being" route...well it just goes in circles. We also know that a "supreme being" capable of making universes...didn't just pop out of nowhere...let's use some of that gray matter that was given to us...OK?

Just be content in knowing you don't know...and leave it at that.

Life happened...nobody knows how or why. We're all individual living entities who just want to live, eat, and reproduce...it really IS that simple. All the philosophical nonsense...is just that...man made nonsense. Billions of people pondering the unknowable over millions of years. ALL coming to the WRONG conclusions. Well not all...the agnostics are the closest to the truth...they're not sure!

Your reality...is whatever you think in your head. After all...it's the only thing you have to interact with the universe.

 

[southflorida]

I'm not trying the be a douchebag and ruin your day...but WTF are you (and others) making it so fucking complicated?

Life happened...somehow. Some all powerful God didn't do it. Because IF he did...then HE would HAVE to have been created by another...more powerful..."God"...get it? When you go the "Supreme being" route...well it just goes in circles. We also know that a "supreme being" capable of making universes...didn't just pop out of nowhere...let's use some of that gray matter that was given to us...OK?

Just be content in knowing you don't know...and leave it at that.

Life happened...nobody knows how or why. We're all individual living entities who just want to live, eat, and reproduce...it really IS that simple. All the philosophical nonsense...is just that...man made nonsense. Billions of people pondering the unknowable over millions of years. ALL coming to the WRONG conclusions. Well not all...the agnostics are the closest to the truth...they're not sure!

Your reality...is whatever you think in your head. After all...it's the only thing you have to interact with the universe.

what an excellent perspective, makes a lot of sense to me

 

[hunt4genetics]

Everytime I see my dog dreaming and twitching, I wonder is my dog asleep on the floor, or chasing a bunny in the field.

 

[bentom187]

THE WORLD IS A REFLECTION OF OUR MINDS

the chan branch of Buddhisim advocates clearing the mind and seeing the true self.Mind and self are the essence of chan Buddhisim.There was a well known chan story ,"the flag moves or the mind moves"The sixth grand master Huineng , first to the Faxing Monestary in Guangzhou where master yinzong was teaching. At the time ,there was a sudden wind and it blew on the flag. One monk said it was the flag that was moving,another disagreed and said that the wind was moving.The sixth grandmaster said to them that it was not the flag nor the wind that moved ,but the mind of the speakers that moved.