Investing in new lights LED or HID?

[Aeroguerilla]

dont waste your money on LED. 1000w hps all day baby. dont let anyone tell you otherwise. cough up the extra 100 and go get the 1000w. Then you be pullin upwards of 2lbs instead of a few zones with some new shitty LED tech. granted its the "wave" of the future.. but for now stick w whats proven to achieve the best results.

 

[secondtry]

For those who STILL want to INCORRECTLY use so-called PAR watts (watt/m^2), please read this (re: LEDGirl, etc). I posted an older verison of the writeup my mistake a few mintes ago, this version is much more accurate and also more negative on the converion of watt/m^2 to PPFD, lux to PPFD, etc:



http://support.specmeters.com/kb/index.php?ToDo=view&catId=13&questId=111

What are the differences between Quantum Light and Solar Radiation?


The range of wavelengths that plants use is called Photosynthetic Active Radiation (PAR). This is measured in units of micro-mol per metre squared per second (umol/m2/s) which is usually called Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD).

At midday in mid summer the sun can reach around :-
2000uE = 2000umol/m2/s = 9800FC = 1060W/m2 = 106000LUX.
Of course, this depends on the latitude where you live.


From the above you might imagine that you could calculate conversion constants between them. However, this cannot be done. The trouble with comparing watts/m2, lumens, lux and umol/m2/sec (uEinsteins) is that it is like comparing apples with bananas with pears. Each system of units refers to different portions of the total light spectrum. So, to produce a set of conversion constants is misleading to say the least.

The total solar spectrum is measured with a pyranometer in units of watts/m2 relating to light in the 400 to 1100 nanometer wavelength.

Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) is measured with a quantum sensor in units of umol/m2/sec relating to light in the 400 to 700 nanometer wavelength.

Photometry is measured with a light meter in units of lumens or lux relating to light in the 380 to 770 nanometer wavelength.

As a matter of interest one mol/m2/sec is equal to Avogadro's number in photons,
6.02 X 10 23.

This means that 1 umol/m2/sec relates to 602,200,000,000,000,000 photons reaching the earths surface in each square metre every second. That an awful lot of photons - maybe keep that number in mind next time you contemplate sunning yourself.

 

[secondtry]

I really hope this is the last word on the BS called LEDs when compared to HID! I have yet to find, or have shown to me A SINGLE study on cannabis which backs up ANY claims of LED sellers like LEDGirl, etc, et al.

 

[asde²]

you wanna talk photons only it seems so jfyi, the cree xp-g r5 output in ppf/watt equals the 600w plantastar - bye bye

 

[Dozee]

nice thread. Im here

 

[Bud Bug]

Well,

I can tell you my major reason for purchasing LED's, I live in a row home with my family, children, and pets. The last thing I wont to be responsible for is a massive fire that burns down my home and one half of the block with it!!!

Is that a good enough reason to look at LEDS!!!!


Frodo

A LED array still has a power supply. Mine had 300W and it got damn hot in the room if the exhaust fan was turned off if the 6 fan on it failed the thing would be smoking hot in no time

By the way I've had a 300W CPU on my computer fail on me and started to smoke, also I had my CPU fan fail and if I didn't get home for lunch and noticed the dust around the CPU starting to fry it would have possibly caught on fire.

As for HID's burning down my house, well I have a heat kill with manual reset on my timer board and I run the light from 7pm to 7am when everyone is home.

By the way my last grow I got 22 oz dry in 52 days (veg(no veg)+flower) total for the crop with a 1000W. No way in hell would I have done that much with a 300W LED which almost every company compares it to a 1000W HID. As for power savings that $15 per month is nothing compared to the rest of the set up.

 

[hansdampf210]

http://forum.hanfburg.de/fhb/showthread.php?t=280343
that is interest

 

[MerryPrankstr]

SecondTry...

I admire your sense of pride in academic studies, but that doesn't cut it in the real world. In the real world we are trying to grow plants, not write papers. Reading is a nice start to research, but only a start. One must dip ones toes into the world of reality and perform actual tangible experiments so that theories can be proved right or wrong.

I have been actually growing with high powered LED's for the last 2 years. I have been growing cannabis for well over 30 years in natural sunlight and indoor lamps which have changed as HID's matured. I can tell you that LED's do not make financial sense yet, but will very soon as LED's are manufactured more cheaply.

If you don't want to use them, fine, but don't try to throw walls of meaningless words in an effort to stop time and technology. It is simply not possible and a waste of everyone's time and energy.

You must really love to hear yourself talk, and believe that everyone else is stupid and not able to see as clearly as yourself when in fact you are the one deluding yourself by chanting a mantra of LED inferiority.

We in the real world are not concerned with "scientific dogma", but rather real results. I sincerely hope one day you may do so as well.

 

[secondtry]

you wanna talk photons only it seems so jfyi, the cree xp-g r5 output in ppf/watt equals the 600w plantastar - bye bye

Once again, that is measured at the SOURCE (the lamp), PPF = umol/s, NOT umol/m^2/s, i.e., PPFD at the canopy. So once again: there is NO way to accuratly convert from PPF to PPFD! And besides, you didn't mention the level of PPF, how did you find the PPF? (don't tell me you used KNNA's spreadsheet beucase I already debunked that).

Who cares that it might equal the 600w plantastar? (the datum I assume you got from KNNA's spreadsheet) As I have shown time, after time, after time, after time: we want at least over 1,000 PPFD!

 

[secondtry]

nice thread. Im here

Hola amigo! I am not posting here on the regular anymore, but you can still contact me via. PM or email. I lost your phone number. How is CW these days? (Did Plantbuilder grow up yet? )

 

[secondtry]

As for HID's burning down my house, well I have a heat kill with manual reset on my timer board and I run the light from 7pm to 7am when everyone is home.

That sounds like a great setup. Would you mind writing a little about what you are using and where one could buy the components?

Thanks.

 

[secondtry]

http://forum.hanfburg.de/fhb/showthread.php?t=280343
that is interest

I looked but it's all in German, and I can't read German, are you in support of LEDs or HID?

Thanks.

 

[secondtry]

SecondTry...

I admire your sense of pride in academic studies, but that doesn't cut it in the real world. In the real world we are trying to grow plants, not write papers. Reading is a nice start to research, but only a start. One must dip ones toes into the world of reality and perform actual tangible experiments so that theories can be proved right or wrong.

I guess you haven't read much of what I have written? I plan to carry out a huge array of tests using the LI-Cor quantum sensor LI-190; I am copying the work of Sanjay Yohsi.

And ALL the studies I have posted are "real world", i.e., ex vivo! You can't get more real than that. Just because you can grow a plant with LEDs doesn't make them a good choice! I can grow plants with CFL but I never would...

I have been actually growing with high powered LED's for the last 2 years. I have been growing cannabis for well over 30 years in natural sunlight and indoor lamps which have changed as HID's matured. I can tell you that LED's do not make financial sense yet, but will very soon as LED's are manufactured more cheaply.

And yet, I have not found or been shown ONE single study from academia OR LED makers to back up their wild lies, re: a LED array equals a 1,000 HPS, yea right! If the LED makers are so sure of themselves why haven't a SINGLE ONE of them used a quantum sensor to find and report PPFD? LEDGirl uses the bunk data from SunMaster (i.e. watt/m^2) and tries to make pretend one can convert that accurately to PPFD...and then she goes on to infer cannabis is best under ~500-700 PPFD; give me a break!

If you don't want to use them, fine, but don't try to throw walls of meaningless words in an effort to stop time and technology. It is simply not possible and a waste of everyone's time and energy.

I am writing so other people don't get taken in by the lies like you did. And nothing I write is meaningless words, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it meaningless. The simple FACT is we want to reach peak Pn (rate of photosynthesis) and to do that we need at least 1,000 PPFD, better 1,500 PPFD; how is that meaningless? Would you also say that watt per sq ft is meaningless? (while watt per sq ft is meaningless, as is lumens and placing your hand over canopy to "feel" heat, my point is we need a way to measure light, i.e., quantify the irradiance).

You must really love to hear yourself talk, and believe that everyone else is stupid and not able to see as clearly as yourself when in fact you are the one deluding yourself by chanting a mantra of LED inferiority.

No, I don't love to hear myself talk (or maybe you mean type ), and I don't think everyone else is stupid, maybe a vast majority are ignorant but that's not a bad thing, it's just something people (like you) need to come to grips with and then learn correct info. Why is it that cannabis growers are the only ones who want to say the whole field of photo-botany is bunk???

We in the real world are not concerned with "scientific dogma", but rather real results. I sincerely hope one day you may do so as well.

I am not writing dogma**, YOU are! For "real results" you should try for peak Pn, and for that you need high irradinace with the whole PAR range, especially green!

Maybe you could spend time learning and not assuming what you know is correct??? Hummm?


**Dogma = a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. What I write is PROVEN DATA and FACT, while what LEDGirl, you, aside^2, etc, etc, write is opinion and belief, i.e., dogma...nuff said!

 

[VerdantGreen]

some people like to do the maths, others like to grow the plants.

some small but perfectly formed buds from my 63w LED grow - martian mean green, a sativa dom hybrid. great density, aroma and potency.

for anyone that is interested, i am swapping my 250 CMH for the 205w LED unit that LEDGirl sent me and starting a new grow diary next week

cheers

V.

 

[secondtry]

some people like to do the maths, others like to grow the plants.

And some people (like me) do both! And I can guarantee I grow better plants than you do for the simple fact I use proven scientific theory in regards to growing cannabis with peak Pn, Co2 usage, etc, etc.

some small but perfectly formed buds from my 63w LED grow - martian mean green, a sativa dom hybrid. great density, aroma and potency.

Yea and CFL growers can make the EXACT SAME CLAIM!!! So, why don't you drop your "toy" LEDs for CFL, hummm???

for anyone that is interested, i am swapping my 250 CMH for the 205w LED unit that LEDGirl sent me and starting a new grow diary next week

And what will that show? Nada, yield is a very poor way to compare lamps, and your right you have a very subjective method to quantiate cannabinoid levels and terpenoid levels. Why not use TLC (Thin Layer Chromatography) to actually SHOW ANALICALLY that LED can make more cannabinoids than HID? (which isn’t the case at all?) P.S. I have developed a semi-quantitative (i.e., comparative) analytical TLC method one can use for under a $100-200; that is another method I will use to compare lamps...the smoke test is fucking dumb dude!!!

 

[MeanBean]

yield is a very poor way to compare lamps.

Why not use TLC (Thin Layer Chromatography)

the smoke test is fucking dumb dude

Hmmm.... One light yields a pound the other an ounce, which one do you want???

you need that cannabis detector gizmo to tell the difference between buds? than I think your paperwork is wrong. The buds are very close. You can't base theory's on theory's man. Do something other than speculate.

I have seen you cut and paste these same 10 paragraphs all over the site. Just doesn't seem to stop people from growing with led does it?

First you ranted about how there were completely inferior, now were down to measuring the difference with a scientific device.

Your telling us not to buy a light based on yield and quality but based it on what your sticky note says plants like? Wow that's an even further fetch...

the smoke test from an experienced grower is 10 times better than your "TLC" ass plug. all the best foods, and wines are taste,quality tested by people not a hand held devices...

 

[secondtry]

I am NOT speculating, nor am I myself making any theories. Yes if the yield difference is that big one could use it as a qualifier but it's not a GOOD qualifier. Pn is ideal, and as I have shown countless fucking times over 1,000 PPFD is ideal!

What are you referring to with the "cannabis detector gizmo"? I hope you are not referring to TLC! As that has been used for decades by chemists, NATO, UN, DEA, etc, et al!

I dare and challenge ANY LED lover to prove me wrong with data, not their silly yield info which has as much to do with growing environ and skill of grower as it does the light.

 

[MeanBean]

Data.... how much data do you smoke a day?

 

[secondtry]

Enough to know what the fuck I'm taking about, and if you mean cannabis I smoke about 2-3 grams a day.

 

[asde²]

delete please