Infra-Red Vs. No Infra-Red Who's Done Side by Side Testing w/Same Clones?

[f-e]

Interesting.

I saw Bruce bugbee stuff on youtube so it definitely has an effect on photosynthesis, but the real questions are how much do you need, is there a particular balance one must search for in order to get the most from it, and can you over do it?

I looked at the width of spectrum white LEDs cover and decided I wanted at least 10% of the power put there, to be put where they run out. So 600w of LED are supported by 60w of Halogen when I use them. However, if you just want some 730nm then that's a thin sliver of spectrum compared to the width the whites cover. Nothing like 10%. Though such an approach is quite rough.



I didn't notice VG's point about the added IR speeding his flower time before. It's a little surprising. My thoughts are quite the opposite. Based on what little I have done and the mechanism at play. Any sort of shade response is growth behaviour not bloom. Getting to be the tallest is very important if a girl is to survive. Flowering is secondary. I can't think where I read it though. I know my LED plants rapidly pull a week ahead of my HID one's. I do have 660s in with my whites but that's visible. I have only used the Halogen a couple of times to get some stretch but each time flowered a week longer. Though that might be simply because I wasn't happy, my notes were a little weak..

 

[SpideyManDan]

I looked at the width of spectrum white LEDs cover and decided I wanted at least 10% of the power put there, to be put where they run out. So 600w of LED are supported by 60w of Halogen when I use them. However, if you just want some 730nm then that's a thin sliver of spectrum compared to the width the whites cover. Nothing like 10%. Though such an approach is quite rough.



I didn't notice VG's point about the added IR speeding his flower time before. It's a little surprising. My thoughts are quite the opposite. Based on what little I have done and the mechanism at play. Any sort of shade response is growth behaviour not bloom. Getting to be the tallest is very important if a girl is to survive. Flowering is secondary. I can't think where I read it though. I know my LED plants rapidly pull a week ahead of my HID one's. I do have 660s in with my whites but that's visible. I have only used the Halogen a couple of times to get some stretch but each time flowered a week longer. Though that might be simply because I wasn't happy, my notes were a little weak..

Wow ok didnt think about that. If its growing vegetatively (stretching) then its not flowering or budding. I have a halogen I was using for a bit for a little stretch, but I didnt notice anything extraordinary compared to not using it. I'm not using anywhere near 600w tho so the far red percent would have been much higher in my case, possibly negating some effects. I'm trying to get my grow skills up in general but after I do I really want to run some tests and see if LEDs with some halogen bulbs could be cost effective way of getting your far reds. Especially if you could use cheaper SILs or strips combined with halogen bulbs.

 

[Thesearch]

It may help to consider bud growth as a type of vegetative growth. The major difference is that hormonally, the influence is not towards node stretching, but bud growth.

 

[anman 1]

Ναι, το μακρινό κόκκινο διεισδύει στο καλύτερο και (στην κάνναβη ούτως ή άλλως) πυροδοτεί επίσης την απόκριση απόχρωσης. Όταν το μακρινό κόκκινο δεν ισορροπεί με τα υπόλοιπα μήκη κύματος, η κάνναβη θα μεγαλώσει μακρύτερα στελέχη, μεγαλύτερο φύλλο, λιγότερο άνθος. Στην πραγματικότητα το ,or φως θα αυξήσει το ThC και λόγο του στρες που θα υποβάλλετε το λουλούδι.

 

[Cerathule]

The sun's IR is very broad but can generally be seen as "heat" or "thermal radiation". The IR starts at 700nm with FR (Farred) up to 780nm where photoreceptor absorption and photosynthesis both see their end in the red side of the spectrum.
The Farred has mostly a very high leaf penetration, reflection, and only little absorption:

Still, the plants can make excellent use of 700-750nm, and a bit from the rest.
Farred photosynthesis:

the Farred balances the photosystems out, when PSII absorbs much stronger in PAR

or photoreceptor absorption, here Phytochromes

at that point usually the phyto-photobiological aspects of light usually ends, but we mustn't forget the impact radiative heat can have on plant metabolism.

Anecdotal, but some growers use IR either in heaters, or lamps, to upregulate the climate of their tents into a warmer direction.

The farred-photons are absorbed by a few 'special red-forms', located surrounding the core of photosystem I. These are dimeric, trimeric even quadrimeric groups of (mostly) chlorophyll-b which, due to their close proximity, can combine and then allow a strongly redshifted exciton state.

The missing photonic energy will be completed by the subtraction of phononic energy from the system - thus the photoprotective effect of farred by cooling.
Plants do not build much photoscreening pigments specifically where the charge separators p680 & p700 maximally absorb. Thus it is theorized - since in nature farred is ubiquitous - that farred photon absorption serve to dissipate excess energy from red photons photosynthesis (600-700nm) - which, indeed, isn't much:

The typical HPS spectrum is extremely broad:

and emits alot of IR. These are absorbed by the plants material or the water in it:

For the plant, it's just warmth, or heat.
This can be positive or negative in regards to the ambient air & leaf surface temperature.

There is a whole science about matching these environmental parameters to optimize C3 photosynthesis, as this is one of the strongest indicators of growth.
But the speed of enzymes goes up with the temperature and this can also positively influence many internal factors e.g. on a cellular level etc

Also the soil temperature in organic growth can influence the mineralization rate. Inside the canopy it is often so cold - you feel the humidity from transpiration/ evaporative cooling.

What if a lamp possessed 1500-2500nm emitters and use them to correct too cold leaf surface temps? Personally I doubt it would be energy-efficient, maybe in closed systems.

 

[exploziv]

Have you guys noticed faster and more trichomes going cloudy with modern leds? I wonder if UV or IR is to blame. My trichomes seem to progress further and faster than before.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I've noticed each mfg/model can be different in their far red output.

 

[Sologrow]

Keep in mind that it’s also strain dependent. When comparing results of testing it’s no use if plants are different.

 

[exoticrobotic]

I saw better results with 1 CMH 600w 930 vs 2 300w Maxibright Leds.

The CMH seemed to create thicker leaves, at the start of flowering, more leaves than LEDS but the end results with CMH was denser buds that were gummy sticky. The LED buds' resin wasnt as sticky but final bud weight was more.

Have you guys noticed faster and more trichomes going cloudy with modern leds

As @exploziv said above, the resin seems to go cloudy earlier.

When it was smoked the CMH produced a great sigh and woah. The others were nice but less of a rush.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Not sure the infra red output of the Phillips 930 vs Maxibright LEDs. Both are 'far red' flowering set ups.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

They finished the same time, same amber?

 

[exoticrobotic]

Can't remember the timings. Maybe LED was a touch quicker.

I do remember having problems determining when to chop with LEDS. Didnt seem to get the same clear, milky, amber transition i was used to.

What few amber i saw looked burnt and shrivelled..

Maybe the lights were too close with LED, tis possible.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Ugh... way too close. Trichs should have been just as plump and juicy as HPS. Definitely explains part of the efficacy differences.

 

[exoticrobotic]

The bud yield was larger... So was the yield of resin. It was just of lower quality.

This was comparing CMH with mother vs LED with her clones.

 

[Ca++]

Morphology is certainly effected. Without it, it's ratio throughout the canopy can't be seen. Inhibiting the stretch response.


I wonder if the headstart into flowering that LED plants get, is due to the reduced stretching. A vegetative trait.

 

[HellaFella420]

Because the burger is always better than just lettuce, or just the meat and bun, or just the mustard and so on. When the actual combination of wavelengths cannabis uses are figured out, we'll be able to use energy for only productive spectrum.

It's still a muddy puddle we're all poking at with sticks.

I'm pretty sure its settled science at this point, lmao

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Edappayil-Janeeshma/publication/360681677/figure/fig2/AS:1157154350338048@1652898504559/Absorption-and-action-spectra-of-light-in-plants.png

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

YeeeeeahNo... it is not even remotely settled. However, that is a very nice chart based on current interpretations ty so much. What does it tell you?

 

[Maple_Flail]

I've noticed each mfg/model can be different in their far red output.

Vastly... one has caught my attention though... the HLG Scorp Rspec Far red.

HLG Scorpion® Rspec® Far Red

HLG Scorpion Rspec is designed for grows with low ceiling heights or vertical racks. HLG Scorpion Rspec uses 6x Rspec 288 Quantum Boards for an even light spread at just 12" from the canopy. QB 288 uses Samsung's latest LM301H and Deep Red LED 660nm. Commercial Indoor Horticulture LED grow light

horticulturelightinggroup.ca

hoping for some interesting iterations in its spectrum as it evolves. hoping for less green/yellow and more blues/UV as well as yellow/orange, another spike on the far end of far red would also be intriguing.

its only a matter of time before these things come with micro controllers for specific coloring (per type intensity controls?)

 

[Ca++]

I pulled the Rspec pic, and it looks like 3500K 80cri LEDs were used. Non actually match well, but it's closest. That dip in the light blue should only be to 25 by the Rspec drawing, but there is no lm301h that does that. Nor do they have the peak below 600. Nothing quite aligns.
I have added the 4000k 90cri as I believe 'this is the way'
This might seem unusual at first, but while the blue is higher than the red, the total amount of blue is still low, as it's a skinny band. Also, that red is from the 301 and we would add some 660s to increase the red level where it actually wants to balance the blue. I'm actually unsure it this is 30% blue once done. It's a skinny band.
Using the 90cri does a lot for the mid-band. The green and such. While shifting the red peak up maybe 30nm where actual red resides. Lifting the 660 in the process.
For a while I have looked. There are 4000K + 660 288QBs in China for about £30, but stock always proves challenging.
Enough.. the pictures.

 

[troutman]

I'm currently running with a Plantmax 600W 7200 K MH Sky Blue bulb. This is it's spectrum.

Tomorrow, I'll be adding an SF 4000 in the tent. Never mixed both lights before.