This is all very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
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Industrial Hemp in Oregon
- Thread starter socioecologist
- Start date
Did the DEA really just make cbd a schedule 1 drug? How's that going to affect your hemp farm? They are claiming cbd oil cannot legally cross state lines any longer.
R
Robrites
Source?
Google the keywords "DEA Makes CBD Extracts Schedule I". There are all kinds of sources.
socioecologist
Member
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ment-of-a-new-drug-code-for-marihuana-extract
The only cannabinoid listed in the CSA is STILL tetrahydrocannabinol and its isomers, which doesn't include the other 80 non-THC compounds. The DEA is attempting to make any extractions from plants in the cannabis genus qualify as schedule 1...under the auspices of creating a new category that licensed DEA facilities can handle other forms of cannabis.
If it is enacted in 30 days as they are requesting, it means national CBD oil shippers will be breaking federal law. You can still ship compliant industrial hemp flowers to states...and if those states have existing cannabis laws, the material can be extracted and fed into those systems. I know for a fact this decision will be strongly challenged on several grounds and I don't see it being enacted unless there is a long, protracted legal battle--and even then, the DEA doesn't have much to stand on in this situation.
We'll keep shipping our flowers nationally (and internationally) where extractors can use them in compliance with their state or (in international circumstances) national laws.
Pretty frickin' lame though.
The only cannabinoid listed in the CSA is STILL tetrahydrocannabinol and its isomers, which doesn't include the other 80 non-THC compounds. The DEA is attempting to make any extractions from plants in the cannabis genus qualify as schedule 1...under the auspices of creating a new category that licensed DEA facilities can handle other forms of cannabis.
If it is enacted in 30 days as they are requesting, it means national CBD oil shippers will be breaking federal law. You can still ship compliant industrial hemp flowers to states...and if those states have existing cannabis laws, the material can be extracted and fed into those systems. I know for a fact this decision will be strongly challenged on several grounds and I don't see it being enacted unless there is a long, protracted legal battle--and even then, the DEA doesn't have much to stand on in this situation.
We'll keep shipping our flowers nationally (and internationally) where extractors can use them in compliance with their state or (in international circumstances) national laws.
Pretty frickin' lame though.
That's good you can still ship flowers if that goes through. That does seem lame the feds are trying for that though.
socioecologist
Member
Good legal rejoinder here, definitely worth reading.
https://hoban.law/sites/default/fil... Response to DEA Federal Register [FINAL].pdf
https://hoban.law/sites/default/fil... Response to DEA Federal Register [FINAL].pdf
Any progress on fighting that battle?
Also I'm curious about what % THC can a bud be and still be considered type III hemp? From what I understand the .3% THC includes the entire weight of the plant, not just the bud. So you have a bud that tests at 5% (or whatever) THC, if you throw all the leaves and stalks in there and take a sample that relative THC% goes way down. I hope that makes sense.
From your white paper I gather you'll throw all the leaves, stems, and buds together then take random samples and THC has to be less than .3% by weight. But couldn't you get that number even lower by including the stalks if you had to?
Also I'm curious about what % THC can a bud be and still be considered type III hemp? From what I understand the .3% THC includes the entire weight of the plant, not just the bud. So you have a bud that tests at 5% (or whatever) THC, if you throw all the leaves and stalks in there and take a sample that relative THC% goes way down. I hope that makes sense.
From your white paper I gather you'll throw all the leaves, stems, and buds together then take random samples and THC has to be less than .3% by weight. But couldn't you get that number even lower by including the stalks if you had to?
socioecologist
Member
Hi Kelly, no battle to fight really--a lot of folks in the cannabis community freaked out over nothing (myself included in the initial hours after it was announced, as seen above!). Not the first time, won't be the last. The HIA v. DEA (2003) decision, in conjunction with the 2014 Farm Bill, precludes the DEA from listing any non-THC cannabinoid in the CSA without a full scheduling process--which they did not do. I would encourage anyone who doubts this to give the DEA's public relations department a call and just ask, they'll tell you the same thing.
Type III cannabis isn't (scientifically) defined by a THC percentage, rather it describes underlying genotypes. Type I plants have THC synthases turned "on" and CBD synthases "off"; type II has both turned on; type III has THC turned off and CBD on. That said, it's not actually a binary on/off switch; nonfunctional alleles are still capable of converting CBG, just in trace amounts. I think I note this in my white paper, but active CBD synthases are more efficient at converting CBG to CBD than their active THC counterparts; this is why type II plants tend to have significantly larger amounts of CBD than THC in the overall cannabinoid fraction (generally 2:1, but we've also seen up to 6:1 in special circumstances). The general working hypothesis now is that the opposite is true for non-functional synthases; in other words, nonfunctional THC synthases are more efficient than nonfunctional CBD synthases at converting CBG to their respective final products. This explains why high THC plant varieties (type I) have much higher ratios of THC to CBD than their high CBD (type III) counterparts. This is visible in the F2 generation of a cross between a high THC parent and high CBD parent; the 18.8% of progeny that are THC dominant have ratios that range from 1:30 up to 1:400 CBD to THC, while the 18.8% of high CBD plants are much lower (10:1 to 40:1 generally), though the upper bound for each is directly related to the respective parent's ratios.
THC concentration limits are set at 0.3% by the 2014 Farm Bill, but the sampling protocol is the main arbiter of which varieties actually meet the requirement. In Oregon, our Ag department does a good job of taking "representative samples" which include some leaf and stalk; stalks comprise between 27%-28% of the final plant mass. California, which is about to start working on their rules, will be required by law to test the flowering tops in the field before harvest, as well as flowering tops after harvest to ensure compliance (a much higher bar to hit than Oregon for sure). Some farmers in Oregon do as you suggested and simply mulch the entire plant to ensure that they remain below 0.3%. What we have found is that customers (particularly large extractors) really don't like having stems in the final material though, so we do not mulch whole plants. It is, as you stated, a way to lower your overall THC concentration, but would definitely not affect it enough to make a 5% THC plant compliant.
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Very interesting project you have, I enjoyed reading the thread and your white paper. It’s encouraging to see progress being made in the Hemp industry after it being decimated by political and business entities.
I have a question socioecologist if you don’t mind. How are you producing 15 mil of feminized seed? I know you said they were contaminated (shame) but I’m curious of the process. If it’s proprietary and can’t be disclosed, I understand.
I have a question socioecologist if you don’t mind. How are you producing 15 mil of feminized seed? I know you said they were contaminated (shame) but I’m curious of the process. If it’s proprietary and can’t be disclosed, I understand.
socioecologist
Member
Hi Betterhaff, thanks for the interest and question. We produce our feminized seed at several remote locations (outdoors) during the summer and in greenhouses during the winter months to avoid contamination. For the summer projects, we run a whole greenhouse full of female plants targeted for reversal (one variety) in the spring, collect the pollen, refrigerate it, then hand pollinate at our outdoor locations. In the winter, we spread 150 or so reversed pollinators in each 20x100 greenhouse amongst 1500 female seed carriers.
socioecologist
Member
Here's a shot from inside one of our greenhouses this past summer. These are standard 20'x100' hoop houses. We average 1.5 million seeds per flowering cycle in each greenhouse, due to our active hand pollination program. The second picture features my brother in the background doing just that. Last picture is an early season shot of our s. Oregon mountain farm that produces feminized seed from saved pollen. Finally, here's a drone flyover video of our R&D "grow yard" that was contaminated this past summer and was the epicenter of our 15 million seed loss: https://youtu.be/UhZIVv2hD5k
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Thanks for the reply, that’s a lot of work. I was thinking about the math and all I could come up with was it must take a lot of plants. Then you add in the variables such as getting the pollen, pollen delivery, pollen set, seed maturation, etc…quite the task.
On another note, who would have thought another use of “Hemp” would be for CBD production. Without going back thru the thread what is highest level of CBD that can be obtained or you have obtained? Isn’t the maximum total cannabinoid level a plant can produce in the low 30% range? Also, what about terpenes, any value here or are the extractors just concentrating solely on CBD?
On another note, who would have thought another use of “Hemp” would be for CBD production. Without going back thru the thread what is highest level of CBD that can be obtained or you have obtained? Isn’t the maximum total cannabinoid level a plant can produce in the low 30% range? Also, what about terpenes, any value here or are the extractors just concentrating solely on CBD?
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
The best CBD number I've seen anywhere is just a pinch under 27% CBD off an AC/DC x Pennywise from Subcool, but it wasn't under 0.3% THC. The hemp guys seem to be after the high CBD:THC ratio strains more than they are after the super big CBD numbers.
Also go back & read through the thread, its a particularly good one.
socioecologist,
So you grow the females at almost one plant to the square foot?
1500 females and 150 transformed males in 2000 square feet?
And get about 30 Kg of seeds? That is really packed in, I use 1 plant to a square meter, 1 plant to 10 square feet, in my greenhouse. In 2,000 square feet, 200 square meters, I can get about 20-30 Kg of seeds 1-1.5 million. I can put in more plants, but why? More work, and more problems, is what I find. My plants are big and tall, the main reason I don't pack in more is humidity and mold, I like to give them room and dry air, as well as light from the sun. I trim all branches off the bottom couple of feet to help keep the crop off the ground and to encourage air flow. My plants are 10+ foot.
How tall are the females that set seed when done? And the females transformed to male for pollen, how tall? Is the entire female transformed from top to bottom? Does it give as much pollen as a regular male? Most females I have transformed to male for pollen just do not produce the amount of pollen that a good true male will produce, so you need more transformed plants is what I have found.
I can pollinate an acre with just 10 males outdoors or in a single greenhouse. Seed set is not perfect outdoors depending on winds, but it is easy and cheap. I also darken in moveable hoop greenhouses outdoor plants early as can be done, for just a few weeks, pollinate them, then stop darkening them, and let then regenerate veg, no big buds for mold problems, and the seed crop is done in 6-8 weeks, early before cold wet weather sets in. You get no good herb just seeds. This allows many acres to be seeded and finished early before any problems.
-SamS
So you grow the females at almost one plant to the square foot?
1500 females and 150 transformed males in 2000 square feet?
And get about 30 Kg of seeds? That is really packed in, I use 1 plant to a square meter, 1 plant to 10 square feet, in my greenhouse. In 2,000 square feet, 200 square meters, I can get about 20-30 Kg of seeds 1-1.5 million. I can put in more plants, but why? More work, and more problems, is what I find. My plants are big and tall, the main reason I don't pack in more is humidity and mold, I like to give them room and dry air, as well as light from the sun. I trim all branches off the bottom couple of feet to help keep the crop off the ground and to encourage air flow. My plants are 10+ foot.
How tall are the females that set seed when done? And the females transformed to male for pollen, how tall? Is the entire female transformed from top to bottom? Does it give as much pollen as a regular male? Most females I have transformed to male for pollen just do not produce the amount of pollen that a good true male will produce, so you need more transformed plants is what I have found.
I can pollinate an acre with just 10 males outdoors or in a single greenhouse. Seed set is not perfect outdoors depending on winds, but it is easy and cheap. I also darken in moveable hoop greenhouses outdoor plants early as can be done, for just a few weeks, pollinate them, then stop darkening them, and let then regenerate veg, no big buds for mold problems, and the seed crop is done in 6-8 weeks, early before cold wet weather sets in. You get no good herb just seeds. This allows many acres to be seeded and finished early before any problems.
-SamS
socioecologist
Member
Hi Sam,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your wealth of experience. Of course you are right that growing bigger plants is more efficient at this scale, but our impediment is greenhouse sidewall height--plants have to finish between 3.5-4 feet tall on the outer edges. Each plant is in a 10 gallon container and gets 1.5' in-row spacing and 2' between row spacing (3 sq. ft. total). It's not optimum for the reasons you mentioned, but does produce a nice canopy of fully seeded tops and laterals. Average seed production is 50 pounds with this arrangement (22+ kg).
We did something similar with a light-dep run, but let them flower for 4-5 weeks before allowing them to revert. Did have some spots of mold, but nothing real bad--seeds all finished well, but it seemed to take a bit more time to mature than normal? Doesn't really matter though when the plants are making seed at the height of summer--that's an awesome strategy!
RE: male vs. reversed female pollination efficiency. We used 1 male last winter to pollinate an entire greenhouse for "regular" seed, but use 40-50 reversed females to accomplish the same task producing feminized seed. These are bigger plants (5-7 feet tall) and get placed in the front of the greenhouse (by air intake) and down the center aisle (most ceiling height). Reversed females maintain their sex-specific flower morphology (tight clusters, upwardly pointed), as opposed to males' downward pointing orientation and lower cluster density. 28 million years of evolution to overcome there. It makes for a lot of work to obtain good seed set with uniform maturation times; we shake the shit out of them on a regular basis once they start "dropping" (a misnomer compared to their male counterparts), harvest pollen using hash screens, and hand pollinate females with makeup brushes. Outside of that, the most important component is the reversal spray concentration and timing.
Why all the effort? Cannabis farming is Oregon's most important agricultural activity, worth a little over $1 billion a year in farm gate value. Our state allowed federally legal hemp farming at the same time as it legalized "adult use". Interest in hemp has taken off after traditional farmers heard they could make money producing CBD, but many of them planted male / female crops last season and pollinated their neighbors who were growing THC flowers. We are trying to educate hemp farmers about best practices for CBD production while providing proven, 100% female seed for them to plant. It keeps neighbors on speaking terms and increases field productivity for hemp farmers dramatically; yields on "regular" CBD crops (male/female) are about 600 pounds per acre vs. 2000 pounds with all female crops. With regular seed, you lose 50% of your crop to males and an additional 40% in weight on the females due to seed set.
For large scale field production with early flowering, photoperiod sensitive varieties, we recommend 4' in-row plant spacing and 6' spacing between rows. That's 1815 plants per acre, yielding around 2500 pounds of 10% CBD flowers. At those rates, each greenhouse of feminized seed will plant about 826 acres, which is about 2x what was planted in the state last year and about what we expect to see in production for 2017.
Reversed Female Pollinating
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your wealth of experience. Of course you are right that growing bigger plants is more efficient at this scale, but our impediment is greenhouse sidewall height--plants have to finish between 3.5-4 feet tall on the outer edges. Each plant is in a 10 gallon container and gets 1.5' in-row spacing and 2' between row spacing (3 sq. ft. total). It's not optimum for the reasons you mentioned, but does produce a nice canopy of fully seeded tops and laterals. Average seed production is 50 pounds with this arrangement (22+ kg).
We did something similar with a light-dep run, but let them flower for 4-5 weeks before allowing them to revert. Did have some spots of mold, but nothing real bad--seeds all finished well, but it seemed to take a bit more time to mature than normal? Doesn't really matter though when the plants are making seed at the height of summer--that's an awesome strategy!
RE: male vs. reversed female pollination efficiency. We used 1 male last winter to pollinate an entire greenhouse for "regular" seed, but use 40-50 reversed females to accomplish the same task producing feminized seed. These are bigger plants (5-7 feet tall) and get placed in the front of the greenhouse (by air intake) and down the center aisle (most ceiling height). Reversed females maintain their sex-specific flower morphology (tight clusters, upwardly pointed), as opposed to males' downward pointing orientation and lower cluster density. 28 million years of evolution to overcome there. It makes for a lot of work to obtain good seed set with uniform maturation times; we shake the shit out of them on a regular basis once they start "dropping" (a misnomer compared to their male counterparts), harvest pollen using hash screens, and hand pollinate females with makeup brushes. Outside of that, the most important component is the reversal spray concentration and timing.
Why all the effort? Cannabis farming is Oregon's most important agricultural activity, worth a little over $1 billion a year in farm gate value. Our state allowed federally legal hemp farming at the same time as it legalized "adult use". Interest in hemp has taken off after traditional farmers heard they could make money producing CBD, but many of them planted male / female crops last season and pollinated their neighbors who were growing THC flowers. We are trying to educate hemp farmers about best practices for CBD production while providing proven, 100% female seed for them to plant. It keeps neighbors on speaking terms and increases field productivity for hemp farmers dramatically; yields on "regular" CBD crops (male/female) are about 600 pounds per acre vs. 2000 pounds with all female crops. With regular seed, you lose 50% of your crop to males and an additional 40% in weight on the females due to seed set.
For large scale field production with early flowering, photoperiod sensitive varieties, we recommend 4' in-row plant spacing and 6' spacing between rows. That's 1815 plants per acre, yielding around 2500 pounds of 10% CBD flowers. At those rates, each greenhouse of feminized seed will plant about 826 acres, which is about 2x what was planted in the state last year and about what we expect to see in production for 2017.
Reversed Female Pollinating
einsteinlady
Member
Socio
Can you go into more detail about your spray concentration and timing? The scale of your project is amazing, how do you have time for anything else!
Can you go into more detail about your spray concentration and timing? The scale of your project is amazing, how do you have time for anything else!
socioecologist
Member
Sam,
I realize my response and previous post is a bit confusing on spacing, as our winter seed production projects have a different aim (feminized high CBD autos) than our spring / summer projects (photo). Yes, we're packing in anywhere between 1200-1500 female autos on 1' centers (1 sq. ft.) and pollinating with 150 female pollen donors in the winter, and the previously described lower density program is used on photo lines.
I wish I could be more helpful on the spray concentration and timing, but we have spent 3 years working on this bit of information and will not be releasing it until we submit our results for publication next summer. What I can offer is that each variety is different (both timing and effective spray concentration) and that previously published data is (1) not aggressive enough on concentration amounts and (2) fails to account for differential flowering rates between pollen donors and their non-reversed counterparts.
I realize my response and previous post is a bit confusing on spacing, as our winter seed production projects have a different aim (feminized high CBD autos) than our spring / summer projects (photo). Yes, we're packing in anywhere between 1200-1500 female autos on 1' centers (1 sq. ft.) and pollinating with 150 female pollen donors in the winter, and the previously described lower density program is used on photo lines.
I wish I could be more helpful on the spray concentration and timing, but we have spent 3 years working on this bit of information and will not be releasing it until we submit our results for publication next summer. What I can offer is that each variety is different (both timing and effective spray concentration) and that previously published data is (1) not aggressive enough on concentration amounts and (2) fails to account for differential flowering rates between pollen donors and their non-reversed counterparts.
socioecologist,
We were the very first in the early 90's to use STS commercially on females to make males from females for pollen production, our goal was selfing populations to increase target Cannabinoids, the work is published. We also found different rates of application, both amounts and times and frequency of applications were required for different female clones to be transformed well. As well some we found, a few, that could not be transformed or they seemed functionally sterile, the pollen was sticky and would not drop. If you used a Q-tip the pollen did work but way to much work to hand pollinate acres, we collect pollen, freeze it at minus 30c and use when needed, I have liters of pollen that is 25 years old and it still works fine. I have used a small electric paint air sprayer for pollination of acres of females I walk quickly through the field backwards and easily get complete seed set. Very fast and easy. Frozen pollen means not having to time the flowering of the females and transformed female/males you always have pollen you need when needed.
I have worked with hemp for decades, I created Finola before I gave it to JC to commercialize, it was created for seed yields, not CBD, or as an auto parent as some people do today. I have a few other unregistered hemp varieties I developed including a big seed early variety TINA, 20 seeds to a gram and can be grown outdoors for seed in S Ontario easily, with very very low THC well below .3%. Like a small pinon (pine) nut shelled, great mouth feel.
Have you tried producing all male seed crops? Male fibers collected pre pollen drop is finer and superior to female fiber, but your neighbors will freak out maybe? Or is your only interest in hemp for CBD or other Cannabinoids? We made single Cannabinoid varieties for THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, and the propyl's, THCV, CBDV, CBCV, CBGV it was a lot of work but it did work well. I am surprised others have not yet done the same. We started this work in the 90's.
I now prefer working on high THC with the right terpenes, that is my real interest after we showed that the terpenes potentiated and modulated THC and the other cannabinoids, I love terpenes, they are the future. I dislike CBD as it delays onset of THC, reduces peak experience, and makes the reduced effects last longer. Not what I want. We did make the first high CBD only variety but not for recreational use, back in the 80's and 90's you could not get pure cannabinoids for standards besides THC, we wanted to change that. And allow others to work with all the cannabinoids, so we created sources for most of them.
-SamS
We were the very first in the early 90's to use STS commercially on females to make males from females for pollen production, our goal was selfing populations to increase target Cannabinoids, the work is published. We also found different rates of application, both amounts and times and frequency of applications were required for different female clones to be transformed well. As well some we found, a few, that could not be transformed or they seemed functionally sterile, the pollen was sticky and would not drop. If you used a Q-tip the pollen did work but way to much work to hand pollinate acres, we collect pollen, freeze it at minus 30c and use when needed, I have liters of pollen that is 25 years old and it still works fine. I have used a small electric paint air sprayer for pollination of acres of females I walk quickly through the field backwards and easily get complete seed set. Very fast and easy. Frozen pollen means not having to time the flowering of the females and transformed female/males you always have pollen you need when needed.
I have worked with hemp for decades, I created Finola before I gave it to JC to commercialize, it was created for seed yields, not CBD, or as an auto parent as some people do today. I have a few other unregistered hemp varieties I developed including a big seed early variety TINA, 20 seeds to a gram and can be grown outdoors for seed in S Ontario easily, with very very low THC well below .3%. Like a small pinon (pine) nut shelled, great mouth feel.
Have you tried producing all male seed crops? Male fibers collected pre pollen drop is finer and superior to female fiber, but your neighbors will freak out maybe? Or is your only interest in hemp for CBD or other Cannabinoids? We made single Cannabinoid varieties for THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, and the propyl's, THCV, CBDV, CBCV, CBGV it was a lot of work but it did work well. I am surprised others have not yet done the same. We started this work in the 90's.
I now prefer working on high THC with the right terpenes, that is my real interest after we showed that the terpenes potentiated and modulated THC and the other cannabinoids, I love terpenes, they are the future. I dislike CBD as it delays onset of THC, reduces peak experience, and makes the reduced effects last longer. Not what I want. We did make the first high CBD only variety but not for recreational use, back in the 80's and 90's you could not get pure cannabinoids for standards besides THC, we wanted to change that. And allow others to work with all the cannabinoids, so we created sources for most of them.
-SamS
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socioecologist
Member
I know you came before all of us; I search your posts when I'm looking for answers to the questions I seek--usually esoteric avenues of cannabis research. We are all now trying to replicate your work 30-40 years after you pioneered it. Honestly, I just shake my head on some days and laugh out loud, thinking about how wild it would have been to be that far ahead of the curve so early on. And lonely! There are still very few who understand the importance we place on our work and thrill we get when finding or making something new. Thank you for your perseverance and commitment to this path.
We've found the same thing re: reversing females. There is a high rate of infertility on the "hemp" side of things the deeper you go in selfing projects. The paint sprayer in the field is great; we were planning on using a backpack blower on 30 acres for feminized seed production this summer--glad to know the concept works!
Your work with Finola intrigues me, as our major focus for the last few years is on fast finishing (70 days from germination to swathing) high CBD autoflowering seed and early flowering photo varieties. Outside of our auto projects, we have only seen and worked with "finola", F2 seed from seed savers in Europe at best, not the real thing. It performed well in field for grain yield, but takes a long time (120 day lifecycle). I've heard that true Finola will not flower under 24 hours of light--is that the case? We're trying to work out underlying genes for photoperiod sensitivity to better understand the diversity in cannabis. We are convinced there are at least two separate genetic pathways that control flower timing, but need sequencing to confirm that.
All male seed crops--have not tried this, but read your work on how to make it happen when you asked about it a few years ago--very cool concept and there will be a market for it in the future, but it isn't economically viable at the moment. Maintenance of neighborly relations would preclude that for sure! Our production focus is, as you state, primarily cannabinoids and terpenes.
I've been wondering lately about your work on novel cannabinoids: you were not listed as a co-author on de Meijer's series of papers for GW, but I was under the impression that you were the breeder behind the work--is that correct? Part of the IP sale? None of my business, but you mentioned it and I'm curious.
Now that we know the single gene hypothesis (Bt / Bd) is wrong, can you help me understand something? Two tightly linked genes for THC and CBD production means two alleles per gene; a cross between a pure THC parent and pure CBD parent, followed by open pollination in the F1, should lead to 6.3% double recessive non-functional synthases in the F2 population. What we're finding though is many double recessives are still THC dominant from a lab verified chemotyping, and not CBG-predominant as would be expected.
I'm 100% on board with you re: terpenes. My homework each night consists of vaporizing pure THC in combination with isolated terpenes. I feel like it has drastically improved my ability to select outstanding plants.
