Indoor Vertical Grow Systems 101

[allouez]

It seems like 99% of growers don't understand what the inverse square law actually means. It doesn't mean that the light disappears as it gets further from the bulb. But rather it means that the light spreads out, covering an exponentially greater area. The total amount of light is the same, it's just more spread out, so at an individual point the lux is lower.

I think this is what vicious bee was trying to say, before he or she was mostly insulted and ignored.

I also believe the world is round, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and that mass cannot be created/destroyed. I also don't believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Oh btw, from this link https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=127881

A 1000 watt light at 1 foot = 44,563 lumens
A 1000 watt light at 3 feet = 4,951 lumens

Is that enough loss for you?

And no, 4000 lumens spread out over a 3'x3' area is not going to give you the same growth as 44,000 lumens over a 1'x1' area. The lumens are too low at the distance of 3' to really do anything.

Do you think that a 1 square foot space at 44,000 lux will yield just as much as a 4 square foot (2x2) space at 11,000 lux?

If anything, the benefit from vertical is that you can spread out the light better to cover a larger (vertical) surface instead of a smaller brighter (horizontal) surface. A reflector is going to make the light more intense at a given distance. The benefit with vertical growing is you can efficiently cover a larger area with less intense (but intense enough) light. With horizontal, the brightness might be inefficiently high just under the bulb while getting too dim too quickly when moving away from the middle.

I do wonder just how efficient reflectors are. As in, an actual lux test, comparing the lux a foot to the side of a bare vertical bulb to the lux a foot under a horizontal (with reflector) bulb. Even if the reflective material is say, 95% efficient, there still are other variables. (like the light simply reflecting back against the bulb)

 

[Aerohead]

I have had a bad day, I quit

 

[MyGreenToe]

allouez explanation of the inverse square law and what it means in terms of lights is correct. Here is the wikipedia entry for reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

Really this all makes much more sense with an illustration. I will try to find one.

 

[MyGreenToe]

As for the efficiency of reflectors goes, I think the basic reflective value of the material is only the starting point. most of the common designs arent terribly efficient at reflecting the light in a consistent manner. Parabolics and adjustawings are probably best in that respect. For more on the topic I recommend this thread:
Air cooled reflector testing with Digital footcandle meter by Pico
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51325

I have a picture that shows the light distribution footprint of a number of different reflectors, but have yet to recall where i stashed it on my drives. When I find it, I'll post it to the thread.

Keep It Green
MGT

 

[DHF]

"PL" lights/fixtures give the biggest footprint of 5 x 5 on horizontal equipment , and haveta be elevated since they`re open , and the reflectors look like upside down toilet bowls.......

Vertical bare bulbs blast wattage sideways with not so much downwards , so the bulbs need dropped down within reason for max absorption by the plants while being bounced off the walls and ceilings .......

Noone tried to insult or ignore that dewd cuz he kept comin back full force with his arguments , but........Lumens , Lux , and Footcandles best absorbed by plants within certain parameters is the ticket .......

There`s no reason to cloud the issue with the inverse square law when it doesn`t pertain to blastin pot plants with at least 50 watts per sq ft horizontal within the available/limited footprint , and at least 20 watts per sq ft sideways with bare bulbs if the plants are on the walls........apples and oranges.......

Lotta that round here these days......Theory versus actual implementation and experience....2 separate entities with only 1 solution.......runs under yer belt from doin it........

I ran a digital light meter for couple yrs till I figured out what dialed the setups , and never looked back after that with any theoretical queries.......

MGT....Killer setup Bro...Rock dat thang.......

Peace....DHF...........

 

[Marlo]

Theory versus actual implementation and experience....2 separate entities with only 1 solution.......runs under yer belt from doin it........

I'll take real growers experience over theory any day. Especially when it's my own experiences!




MARLO

 

[ever green]

Nice thread MGT
First post here but been doggin for a while

I want to do my first grow this year after about 20 years of thinking about it.

I get the the vert bulb thang 360 degs light, less radiant heat simples
I want to do a single 600 surrounded, so i think a few pages back i read the plants shouldnt get any closer than 18" to the bulb, Have i got that right could one of you vets sqaure me up.
What happens with the dark side of the plant does it get trimmed or left.

Thanks for any ones time for replying in advance

Ever green

 

[BlueberryLovr]

evergreen, you can leave the backside of the plants alone if you want larfy buds heh. I think most people trim them off or train appropriately.

 

[TexasMonster]

I just read this thread from beginning to end. Lots of information here as well as some beautiful gardens presented. I do appreciate the education.

 

[thingshappening]

Hey MGT.........I had a mexican skunk hybrid from my outdoor escapades back in the day that was a perfect specimen for indoor krusty buckets..........

Ran that bitch for over 8 yrs and never finished less than 10 lbs outta 4 plants in every room I had.........I have no clue what ta offer as advice strain related other than what Heathie`s busted the gpw`s with runnin big plants.......

Tweakin crackhead`s broke into one of my rental houses and stole all the appliances with my seedstock in the basement fridge a few yrs back and my shit`s gone forever.......

Long story but Heathie and couple more left coast Growbro`s hooked me back up with some winners and then a close bro got popped last summer and I`m shutdown for good.......bored and tryin ta help folks as best I can from all those yrs.......

Setup a wall banger window unit a/c MGT........2 ton/24000 btu`s with auto restart and thermostatically controlled......Use active intakes AND exhausts on plug in speed controllers and thermostats.......

Good sized dehuey will burn a lot of power , so if yas can get a Santa Fe unit that runs 1/2 the power and works harder then put it in the budget......

Over 8 yrs of krusty buckets.......5 yrs of ebb and flow buckets , and couple-3 yrs of Heath`s vertical racks with my upgrades/re-designs till shutdown........

Paid my dues.....retired and sittin at the beach stealin wi-fi from my neighbors and watchin the dawg bite the waves rollin in........

Shit could be worse.......Holler if I can help.......

Peace.....DHF................

Hi dude. Just to clarify, your 10x10 5 lamp grow used 1K's, not 600's right? Finally, did you jump the lights around like Heath, or did you keep all 5K watts (or 3K watts?) running at all times?

Thanks man!

To anyone: Do you believe that bushes get better yields than trees, or vise versa? Too early to say?

 

[MyGreenToe]

Hi dude. Just to clarify, your 10x10 5 lamp grow used 1K's, not 600's right? Finally, did you jump the lights around like Heath, or did you keep all 5K watts (or 3K watts?) running at all times?

Thanks man!

The way I think Fred did it, and the way I intend to do it, is with a 1000MH in the center, and 600wHPS as the outer 4. Maximum lumens at the most effective bulb position(the center), and maximum efficiency bulbs(the 600s) at the corners, where the light use is less effective because of the corners. This way you get the best combination of high lumens and high efficiency. You would undoubtedly yeild more with 5 1k's, but likely at a lower overall gpw.

Keep it Green
MGT

 

[MyGreenToe]

Also don't forget to cover your room(walls/ceilings/floors/etc) to get the most out of your bare bulbs. This is especially important in the corners of the 5 bulb tree configuration, where the room is basically the reflector.

Heath has been experimenting with using reflectors on the outside/corner bulbs. I always wondered how a few adjustawing reflectors might improve the performance of the corner bulbs in the 5 bulb config...

food for thought
MGT

 

[MyGreenToe]

To anyone: Do you believe that bushes get better yields than trees, or vise versa? Too early to say?

I guess it depends what you mean. Obviously in terms of per plant the trees will win out for yield. In regards to gpw it's probably more about how you lay things out and how well you know your strain. Both can yield equally well. The highest gpw I recall Heath achieving was with a VSOG, not with trees or bushes. It's almost always easier to pull higher gpw with higher plant numbers. Which isn't to say you can't do almost the same with fewer, larger plants. The difference in achievable gpw between trees and buses is likely negligable, all other things being equal.

The strict medical rules regarding plant numbers in many states seem to be drawing alot of us to the tree style of growing. Otherwise it would likely still be left to the few hardcore growers like Heath willing to be different. As impressive as growing 2lb+ trees inside is, it's not something most people are prepared for or capable of managing, coming from a strictly flat gardening background. I guess it's what works for your space, and what are you trying to achieve with the numbers you run. Trying to get the most possible yield with very limited numbers? Grow trees. Trying to lower your workload and eliminate small buds and larf by growing vertically lit larger plants? Then growing bush size plants might be a better options(and may require less changes in your growspace).

It all comes down to the particular application, and grower. Lot's of ways to skin a cat. If you are hanging your bulbs vertically, you already got half the battle won. The rest is semantics.

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

yall never though about those built in reflector bulbs shouldent that render corners and hood obsolite?peace

 

[MyGreenToe]

It's my understanding that the reflectorized bulbs have a seriously reduced life, and the lumen output drops off considerably within a short time of them being new. Admittedly I have no firsthand experience with them at all. Anyone that has used them should speak up...

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

It's my understanding that the reflectorized bulbs have a seriously reduced life, and the lumen output drops off considerably within a short time of them being new. Admittedly I have no firsthand experience with them at all. Anyone that has used them should speak up...

cool thanx ive never heard thatx.peace

 

[thingshappening]

Mrgreentoe: I'll have your babies dude. You're the man. Thank you so much for your help.

More annoying questions, if you don't mind (or anyone else up to it!).

With the 1k mh, 4 600 HPS, 10x10 garden:

A) Do you keep all 4 HPS bulbs on at all times, or do you rotate? I could handle the electric bill of all 4 running together, but if you think it won't yield much more than an intelligently rotated "flip-flop"... (Heath seems to have a reason for everything, after all)

B) The reason I asked about wattage relative to this system, is bc DHF stated that his "ideal" grow with said setup was in a 10x10 room. So, as you describe it, I get 34 watts per SF. Is this acceptable given the unique nature of our grow?

c) Thoughts on setting this up in a 10x10 tent? Anything stand out as incompatible here?

D) the addition of a 1K mh will almost assuredly require serious AC, correct? Should I probably budget for this, as well as chillers?

E) IRRC it was stated that 50/50 indica sativa is the best blend for a tree grow. I am thinking of growing: mandala #1, Blue Buddha f2, Purple urkel x sdv3, and NL X Skunk #1. All of which are in the vicinity of 50/50. Any of these strains stand out as a definite no-go for trees? Anybody grown this girls big before?

F) How would you veg this flower room, in terms of wattage of SF?
Thanks guys.

 

[MyGreenToe]

With the 1k mh, 4 600 HPS, 10x10 garden:

A) Do you keep all 4 HPS bulbs on at all times, or do you rotate? I could handle the electric bill of all 4 running together, but if you think it won't yield much more than an intelligently rotated "flip-flop"... (Heath seems to have a reason for everything, after all)

I plan on running all the bloom lights full time, with perhaps some experimentation with flipping once I feel I've got everything well in hand. I think the primary reason to flip lights in a tree setup would be to diminish the power footprint while still allowing big ass trees with no popcorn or flarf. It will lower the overall yield, even if it increases the efficiency in terms of GPW(compared to full time lights). Increased efficiency could be another reason to do it, but I have no data either way, so I can't really say for sure if it would increase your GPW.
I suspect Heath is continuing his experiments in pushing the boundaries of how much he can pull off the least amount of light. Always striving to beat his best GPW with any given style. The man is a bloody wizard. Oh to be his apprentice! I digress....

here's what Heath said:

"If you are flip flopping the lights make sure they are lit in line not a V if that makes sense. Obviously the centre bulb is lit all the time and the outer ones are flip flopped so looking down from the top of the grow you would be able to draw a straight line through the three lit bulbs."

B) The reason I asked about wattage relative to this system, is bc DHF stated that his "ideal" grow with said setup was in a 10x10 room. So, as you describe it, I get 34 watts per SF. Is this acceptable given the unique nature of our grow?

I believe it's the ideal compromise between efficiency and maximum lumens. It's strange but true that the conventional rule of thumb with lighting actually seems to usually work out half way well with verts too. You could go 5000W and it would be right at 50w/sq ft. That would be the perfect maximum lumen environment. I personally am as much concerned about efficiency as maxing things out, so I like the idea of using the more efficient 600s in the corners. It's already been shown to work well by others, so the anecdotal evidence is there.
Now that you mention it I can't recall for sure but maybe Fred was running all 1k's in his rooms. Either way will work, I think I explained the reasoning for each way, you can choose which better suits your philosophy.

c) Thoughts on setting this up in a 10x10 tent? Anything stand out as incompatible here?

No real problems besides those typical with tents. You want every inch of headroom so if you use a tent plan for your ventilation and scrubber and what not to be outside the tent, not hanging from the ceiling inside it. Make sure the tent is of the reflective variety, not the white ones. Bitches this big drink and transpire alot, don't underestimate the ventilation required(not to mention all those lamps!). Plan on adding bracing to the walls of the tent given proper high exchange ventilation.(walls like to suck in and greatly reduce volume of growspace)

D) the addition of a 1K mh will almost assuredly require serious AC, correct? Should I probably budget for this, as well as chillers?

Not sure this will be much difference from 5 600's. I'm not a big fan of heavy AC and chiller use. But that depends on your climate. Where I live the outside air is perfect for cooling needs 75% of the year, so I dont run chillers, and AC only during the peak of summer. Running the lamps during the night when the outside air is coolest extends the time before I need to turn on the AC to cool things. Insulate your plumbing and plant sites with reflectix, and do all your DO creation with your water pump instead of air pumps. Also keep the large external reservoir outside the tent, insulated with reflectix if any direct light hits it. All that should keep your nutrient temps at a perfect level, given that maximum DO creation is happening at each plant site. Unless you live in a tropical or subtropical region I find chillers hard to recommend. If so, bugger all you need all the cooling you can manage.

Heath's reply to my question about cooling a tree room:

"I don't use AC units unless I really have to, its a case of diminishing returns once you start adding too many lights as then you need a AC and usually a chiller. I didn't run the AC on the grow you mention I took it out as it was stood there doing nothing. I don't like the temperature to swing more than 10 degrees c although that in itself is a compromise as a 5 degree swing would be nearer perfect the closer the light off temps are to the temps when the lights are on the better.

The cooling of the rooms is done by extractor fans usually two large ones which are dual speed this allows me to have a high degree of control over my room temps. I can have the extraction on full speed and the intake fan on full speed if its hot. Or i can slow the intake fan or turn it off. typically on lights off I run the large extractor on slow speed and the intake fan shuts off with the lights."

E) IRRC it was stated that 50/50 indica sativa is the best blend for a tree grow. I am thinking of growing: mandala #1, Blue Buddha f2, Purple urkel x sdv3, and NL X Skunk #1. All of which are in the vicinity of 50/50. Any of these strains stand out as a definite no-go for trees? Anybody grown this girls big before?

No personal experience with any of them. If I had to pick blind it would be the NLxSk#1 every time. Heath recommended to me for trees in seed form : critical mass, AK47, Chronic, Shiva skunk, Black widow, shit.

Ok hope that helps.
Keep it Green
MGT

 

[Shady Smoka]

Holy shit my head hurts! I just read this whole thread and have learned so much. Thank you to MGT and everyone who contributed to this awesome thread.
In about 3 weeks I will be completely ditching my horizontal/cooltube setup and going vertical.

Here's my question:
Is it cool to veg under horizontal flouros? Or am I better off vegging with the vertical light?
Thanks again for this awesome thread

 

[whodare]

if going stadium veg horizontal then 10 days or so before the flip get them into vertical light.

trees should veg in vert though.