Indoor mmj in process

[McKush]

Ok - Here it is, Twas the night before Christmas and all thru out McKush Manor....

Current Ventilation Plan - Advice wanted:

the "pit" in the "bunker"

another view

Notice I excavated under the veggie room arrea.

This creates a "ledge" that I will run a pole across or I can use a tent door to seal and separate the two rooms.

Thinking of using a light rail now...

BUT - I need to build a ventilation system so my thoughts are to run 10x14 duct from register in studio/lung room down into a plenum underneath the "ledge". This plenum is right where I'm putting my sump so I'm building and insulating a small area for that.

My thought is to go from plenum into U shaped rigid 8" duct that rim the bottom of the room. Exhaust thru an 8" flex line to a 8" fan (TBD) then 8" Y followed by mechanical dampers. one leg exhausts outside and the other leg return air to the studio / lung room.

controllers to do what I want with the flow etc....

Please expert advice - any changes or suggestions?

 

[Mister_D]

First let me say, for all the planning and work you have, and are putting into this room. Going to make life much easier for you down the road . I picked up a few useful tips already. Your duct setup looks mostly fine. Not sure what size fans you are planning to use, but I'd recommend a passive intake in the lung room, and at least 8" intake and exhaust fans for the flower room. Not sure how much you know about manifold design, but for an 8" manifold you'll want 3-4" outlets (shown as arrows in your drawing), and also make sure you having 18-24" of duct extending past the last outlet (i.e you can't just 90 the ends of your manifold like you have drawn. Extend them passed the last outlet, then cap them off). Other than that everything looks solid so far. Subbed in from here on out, and available for whatever questions you might have

 

[DHF]

Ok....I`ve gone over everything to wrap my head round whatchas are tryin ta make happen , and I`m no HVAC expert so don`t jump down my throat you crotchety old fart aight ?............now....

Let`s assume yas`re gonna exchange air twice per minute since you`re employing a lung area to pump fresh "conditioned" air into , and then suck it out back to the lung area , though I`ve never run up on anyone that wanted to damper and exhaust outside AND inside thru a WYE fitting on mechanized dampers.....

Just wondering what your thoughts are about that.....maybe I`m missin something and it`s a welcome upgrade and addition to whatchas plan to accomplish.....that said.....

Let`s talk watts per sq ft for a sec since I read you only plan on 1KW in 45 sq ft , and IME yas need 2250 watts , but 2-1KW`s would getchas close to optimum , instead of less than 25 watts per sq ft on a mover.....I`m just sayin......

You`re gonna do this right one time , so yas need to plan for everything needed upfront so you`re not disappointed with all your hard work down the road from sub quality fluffy nuggage......

If yas tile everything , make sure yas seal the grout and go back and seal , and go back and seal the shit again , cuz molds and mildews LOVE porous ANYTHING and will thrive and proliferate in your room to it`s demise if not held in check......now.....

900 cfm`s for air exchange twice per minute , 50 watts per sq ft , RH 70% till end of stretch by any means necessary , and as low below 50% till end of cycle will make yas happy.....and....

Always keep lights on/off temps within a 10 degree variable so as to not let condensation form lights off if temps drop too low.....

I ran my rooms in the low to mid 80`s with night temps low to mid 70`s with dialed results and air exchange twice per min for over 20 yrs , so I`m hereta say it works and works well if yas wrap yer head around what it takes to provide "perfect environment" 24/7/365.....and lastly....

Much respect for the hard work and tenacity it`s taken to dig a FUCKIN root/grow cellar and TOTE dirt out after midnite.....and....I applaud your paranoia....Kept me safe my whole growin career ....

Fortune favors the prepared mind , so again kudo`s for doin your homework , so keep stroking and holler if I can help....Don`t post as much as I used to and stay fishin and down in vert-ville mostly , but it`s been kinda boring lately for some reason , and that`s hoiw I found Dab`s thread.........anyways.....

Good luck....DHF..........

 

[McKush]

go for it mckush!
we talked about it, I love it(and envious) your going with the tile
i know your not at this point yet but look into prodex insulation.

Prodex Difference: Energy Star Qualified : ICC-ES Recognized : R 16 unaffected by humidity : Prevents condensation : Prevents 97% of radiant heat transfer : Vapor barrier : Core sealed on both 175' side with flange : Elastic : 19dba contact noise reduction : 90 degree celsius (194 fahrenheit) contact temperature rating : UV resistance : Does not promote mold or mildew : Does not provide for nesting of rodents, bugs or birds : Seals around nails (no leak) : Reflective aluminum foil on each side of 5mm (13/64) closed-cell polyethylene foam center : Keeps its shape over time (doesn't collapse) : Rippled surface increases airflow : Member of US Green Building Council - Made with 100% recyclable virgin raw materials .

Hey Gnomie, Thanks for the tip BTW. Just to get back to you that I loaded up on some of this stuff and will be wrapping my present with it. I was not able to locate prodex locally so I went with whatever brand Lowes had in stock. Bought everything the store had on display and may need a bit more...

I've got tons of fibreglass insulation but since I'm putting the bottom of the FR "pit" to be encased in that rigid hard foam sheet insulation. R70 or some shit I think. I think I'm going to try to encase the grow room area with as much of the styrofoam type insulation as possible.

Make it a big cooler. I'll leave in some air gaps to help reduce sound transmission but I also realized that I can use my GG to sandwhich foam sheets together which really improves the already good sound insulation property.

 

[McKush]

Hi DHF - Thanks for the kind words and all the advice, much appreciated.

"Let`s talk watts per sq ft for a sec since I read you only plan on 1KW in 45 sq ft , and IME yas need 2250 watts , but 2-1KW`s would getchas close to optimum , instead of less than 25 watts per sq ft on a mover.....I`m just sayin......"

I hear you. Originally I was thinking it would be a 4x4 or 5x5 space which is perfect for the ePap / Gavita fixtures. I've enlarged the FR room where the "pit" is and it is about 5x6. The "ledge" area was to be walled off to make it a proper VR. However I thought better of making the delineation of the rooms fixed like that. So I'm constructing one large room that can serve as FR/VR or just VR straight to FR in same room. Just seems like a temporary tent like curtain would be better than a dedicated/fixed wall right there. Allows me flexibility in the future.

Anyoo, my thoughts initially are to grow in the 5x6x10 pit. I must admit that I read and hear everyone about lighting the room, but that thinking does not come natural to me. I keep thinking that the light will be 25-30" from the top of the 5x6 so I don't need to worry about the "ledge" area which - initially at least - will not be grow area. (I don't plan to do a tent partition for a while until I can evaluate where I want it or not.

Having a big area is the way to go for me tho, I can always make the big area smaller, reverse, er, not so easy.

I want to be right in the sweet spot though so I may be ordering another ePap. They dim 750W to 1150W so two of those at 1150W would be rocking it at 2300W of pure fire down on the ladies.

 

[McKush]

First let me say, for all the planning and work you have, and are putting into this room. Going to make life much easier for you down the road . I picked up a few useful tips already. Your duct setup looks mostly fine. Not sure what size fans you are planning to use, but I'd recommend a passive intake in the lung room, and at least 8" intake and exhaust fans for the flower room. Not sure how much you know about manifold design, but for an 8" manifold you'll want 3-4" outlets (shown as arrows in your drawing), and also make sure you having 18-24" of duct extending past the last outlet (i.e you can't just 90 the ends of your manifold like you have drawn. Extend them passed the last outlet, then cap them off). Other than that everything looks solid so far. Subbed in from here on out, and available for whatever questions you might have

Hey Mister_D! Thanks so much for posting into my thread. You are the man I'm looking for! I've repaired my A/C before but that's just replacing the starting cap. I just don't do HVAC so I'm clueless about properly designing a good ventilation system.

I'll cogitate on your advice today and draw something up for your review if you would be most kind....???

Double thanks again for popping in. I have HVAC resources but they are off limits for this project, other than that just this interwebby thang.

Have you ever seen anyone use a "heat exchanger" type approach and use the metal ducting to separate a large duct into two completely sealed off ducts? I'm wondering if I can use the metal ducting to run the intake and exhaust from the FR along the same path for a while - along and under the floor joists in my brand spanking new crawl space - in order to let the heat from the exhaust warm the inlet air? Totally not sure if this effort is worth the time investment and also whether or not I'm just creating a problem for myself down the road.

I have become intrigued by the idea above though and hoping for some real world advice. "That's a stupid idea because..." is fine by me. I tend to over think stuff when I'm in design mode. Not knowing ever single facet of what I'm doing/designing here is a tremendous bother to me. LOL At work this is what I do all the time; architect solutions, build, and productize them. But that is software and this isn't!

 

[DHF]

First let me say, for all the planning and work you have, and are putting into this room. Going to make life much easier for you down the road . I picked up a few useful tips already. Your duct setup looks mostly fine. Not sure what size fans you are planning to use, but I'd recommend a passive intake in the lung room, and at least 8" intake and exhaust fans for the flower room. Not sure how much you know about manifold design, but for an 8" manifold you'll want 3-4" outlets (shown as arrows in your drawing), and also make sure you having 18-24" of duct extending past the last outlet (i.e you can't just 90 the ends of your manifold like you have drawn. Extend them passed the last outlet, then cap them off). Other than that everything looks solid so far. Subbed in from here on out, and available for whatever questions you might have

You slipped in before my post and I didn`t see yours or would`ve deferred to your old ass on ducting and such shit I never dealt with.....but....

I always exhausted back to my lung areas and re-conditioned the used air , but I did have an exhaust /scrubber combo on timers that removed ALL lungroom air into the rest of the basements I grew in to be totally replenished every 4-6 hrs depending on time of yr.....now....

Do 8" intake and exhaust fans move 900 cfm`s ? , cuz if yas run 2 1KW`s maxed out to 2300 watts , you`ll need the heat removal that air exchange twice per minute is so well adept at handling....and....

I think I understand your thoughts on the "wye" with dampers thingy in that yas wanted to be able to exhaust the lights on heat outside during the summer by stopping flow back to the lung room , but use the dampers to bring warm air back into the lung area during colder months......right ?.....

Remember the weakest link in the chain is when stanky ass dope smell gets outside where you live , so let`s figure out a better "smell/used stale air" removal process than outside......

I know you`ll be scrubbin everything , but please think about plan B instead of hopin that scrubbed air goin outside ain`t got "the smell" down the road...

Not tryin to tell yas what to do Bro , just tryin ta keep you safe down the road when scrubbers need replaced and you get used to the smell and don`t realize that the scrubbers are needing replaced.......

I`m just paranoid by nature Kushy.....aight....Keep your lungroom/studio temps in the mid 70`s so the room`s hotter air will constantly be remixed and reconditioned , but room and canopy temps will be 5-7 degrees higher , and all that can be dialed with a good thermostatically controlled a/c with "auto-restart" if power outages occur.....

Dialed environment will help yas more than watts per sq ft EVERY day , so your choice of 2 dimmable/dialable ballasts is by far the best choice you`re makin AFTER working out environmental control...aight...

I smell breakfast cookin , so wake and bake`s all but done for the mornin.....Happy Holidays and good luck HB McKush.....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[McKush]

Hey DHF - Thanks for the comments. What you are describing is what I have in my head and trying to get expressed in something physical (no programming this shit done man.)

I'll re-read your post when I'm less, er, medicated. My temps out here are finally coming up despite the cold. I think I've finally spent enough money to get the ground a bit heat soaked... had to strip down to just jeans and a shirt for a change. Lately the "pit" has been freezing my freaking cajones off, or mis cajonitas as my better half calls them. that aint very fuckin' Irish sounding to me but I like it. No idea what the hell she is babbling about.

 

[McKush]

wake n bake this morning to Yeah Yeah Yeah's. Fun for a while and then I was too fucking stressed out from it. Good for a while tho.

Got my fav younger new-style bluegrass band Chatham County Line's album Wildwood on the radidididio. Check 'em. I'm old school bluegrass too, shit, bluegrass, newgrass, progressive bluegrass, my ass, I like it all man. I'm sleazy and easy.

 

[the gnome]

Gnomie said: "a lot of thought went into the door,
even before I built the room...
all through the build it was constantly on my mind.
i thought of a std. entry door but it lacked the insulative value.
I'm running R-40 in the walls and ceiling
plus you can easily kick it in.
what i really wanted was a walkin cooler door,
insulated, sturdy as hell too!
but the $1200-$1800 price tags was too much at this stage.

when i decided not buying a door and using the cut out wall panel and making the door myself it was a pretty straight forward process.
it was the sealing part that took thought, and one of the most critical parts of the build,
with the numbers in the room and the stank that would be in there this had to be dead on perfect."


Hey Gnomie, Merry Christmas. When you get a chance please post here or on my thread about your "door search". I am most keen to learn of your research and what you considered. I had not even thought of using a freezer door. Intriguing idea.

I have two doors right now that I'm just starting to think about how I want to handle them. Front door is definitely DIY and will be near last to do. My door selection from the studio into the FR/VR however will need to be resolved very soon. I need it to be airtight and securable (i.e. lock the motherf*cker up tight). So any tips you have or what you looked at and why you didn't do it (er, I'm spending some cash for sure but the door expense above is obviously a deal breaker)

Oh - edited this post to add that the door from studio to FR/VR (where the lights are) HAS to be fire rated for 90 minutes minimum. However I want something even more safe than that if I can get it for a reasonable expense. Would like a 2 or 3 hour rating or all metal and unburnable... I want any fire to be contained in its compartment where I can extinguish it or have it smother/smoke itself out.

how bout it mckush....
i don't think my door thoughts will be of much good in your application if your going with a 2-3hr fire rated door.
which is really good,
and sounds like its already budgeted in to your grow.
go with a commercial unit with the steel frame and door.

the only research i actually did on my gro was to look at the walking cooler doors and talking to peeps about it.
they're insulated and air tight for the most part already w/HD hinges and a good handle that keeps the seals compressed and its lockable.
but again cost was a factor for me + by the time i got to the door and the $1800 for the unit i wanted was out.
but later i can easily retro fit it in if i want to.
but to be honest, i'm so happy with my door now I can't see fixin what ain't broke

the only thing with your door is air tite and odor proof and when you get to that point and need any advice just let me know and maybe i can help?

keep up the good work McKush

 

[McKush]

Hi Gents - Check out my picture an let me know if this is what you reccomend.

 

[McKush]

More pics in order to orient the viewer:

View of the "pit" and future FR.

Another view

View looking the other direction. You can see the "ledge". If you look close you will see where I walled off the joists so that I have about 14" to insulate on one side of the boxed in joists which were ganged 2x10s. This is going to give me storage underdeath that platform (i.e. the "ledge"). Under the ledge I can put in my ducting, my sump, and my water storage. In the spring I will put in water.

 

[Mister_D]

Hey Mister_D! Thanks so much for posting into my thread. You are the man I'm looking for! I've repaired my A/C before but that's just replacing the starting cap. I just don't do HVAC so I'm clueless about properly designing a good ventilation system.

I'm no expert, but I have designed a few larger duct setups for large ops, and have an armchair understanding of the principals that go into designing them.

I'll cogitate on your advice today and draw something up for your review if you would be most kind....???

Sure. I see you've already posted a new drawing, i'll get to that in the next reply .

Double thanks again for popping in. I have HVAC resources but they are off limits for this project, other than that just this interwebby thang.

Have you ever seen anyone use a "heat exchanger" type approach and use the metal ducting to separate a large duct into two completely sealed off ducts? I'm wondering if I can use the metal ducting to run the intake and exhaust from the FR along the same path for a while - along and under the floor joists in my brand spanking new crawl space - in order to let the heat from the exhaust warm the inlet air? Totally not sure if this effort is worth the time investment and also whether or not I'm just creating a problem for myself down the road.

I have never done this, but it is possible. Seems like a lot of work for not much return though. I can see a lot of added complexity to get the desired effect too (controllers, dampers, wyes, etc). You could just duct some of your exhaust air back into the lung room accomplishing the same thing (basically like you already planned with the exhaust wye).

I have become intrigued by the idea above though and hoping for some real world advice. "That's a stupid idea because..." is fine by me. I tend to over think stuff when I'm in design mode. Not knowing ever single facet of what I'm doing/designing here is a tremendous bother to me. LOL At work this is what I do all the time; architect solutions, build, and productize them. But that is software and this isn't!

It's not a bad idea in principal, but for me personally the complexities far outweigh the benefits (Simpler is always better IMO). It's your room though, if you want to put in the work, I say go for it.

 

[Mister_D]

You slipped in before my post and I didn`t see yours or would`ve deferred to your old ass on ducting and such shit I never dealt with.....but....

I always exhausted back to my lung areas and re-conditioned the used air , but I did have an exhaust /scrubber combo on timers that removed ALL lungroom air into the rest of the basements I grew in to be totally replenished every 4-6 hrs depending on time of yr.....now....

Do 8" intake and exhaust fans move 900 cfm`s ? , cuz if yas run 2 1KW`s maxed out to 2300 watts , you`ll need the heat removal that air exchange twice per minute is so well adept at handling....and....

No they sure don't, and even less when attached to some duct. I made my recommendation based on the op's plans to use a single 1k light (was also planning to mention walling off the actual 5x5 grow/canopy area to increase available light and WPSF). Being his plan is to only grow in a small area of the available space, exhausting the entire volume of air for the whole area every min won't be necessary (or wise considering the cold outside temps). Two 8" fans should be plenty to over come the duct resistance, cool the room and maintain co2 levels for the amount of lights/plants he plans have in that space. Now if the op were to decide to up lighting to two 1k's my recommendations would change. Twice per min airflow seems best when filling an entire room with lights/plants (takes a lot longer to heat up and use the available co2 in a room that is 1/4 full of light/plants vs. the same room packed with lights/plants, thus requiring less intake/exhaust to maintain ideal parameters).

I think I understand your thoughts on the "wye" with dampers thingy in that yas wanted to be able to exhaust the lights on heat outside during the summer by stopping flow back to the lung room , but use the dampers to bring warm air back into the lung area during colder months......right ?.....

Remember the weakest link in the chain is when stanky ass dope smell gets outside where you live , so let`s figure out a better "smell/used stale air" removal process than outside......

I know you`ll be scrubbin everything , but please think about plan B instead of hopin that scrubbed air goin outside ain`t got "the smell" down the road...

Not tryin to tell yas what to do Bro , just tryin ta keep you safe down the road when scrubbers need replaced and you get used to the smell and don`t realize that the scrubbers are needing replaced.......

I`m just paranoid by nature Kushy.....aight....Keep your lungroom/studio temps in the mid 70`s so the room`s hotter air will constantly be remixed and reconditioned , but room and canopy temps will be 5-7 degrees higher , and all that can be dialed with a good thermostatically controlled a/c with "auto-restart" if power outages occur.....

Dialed environment will help yas more than watts per sq ft EVERY day , so your choice of 2 dimmable/dialable ballasts is by far the best choice you`re makin AFTER working out environmental control...aight...

I smell breakfast cookin , so wake and bake`s all but done for the mornin.....Happy Holidays and good luck HB McKush.....

Peace....DHF.........

I agree 100% with the rest of this

 

[Mister_D]

Hi Gents - Check out my picture an let me know if this is what you reccomend.

View Image

Ok manifold first, you'll need to reduce the amount of outlets to 3 if you plan to use 4" outlets. Alternatively you could use 2" outlets and keep the same amount shown above (this will allow for more fine tuning of air flow later on). Either way you go with it I recommend only putting outlets on three sides of the manifold (leaving the 4th side closed, this the side the exhaust fan will be on). Next up is flower room exhaust, I'd recommend you move it so it exits directly into the lung room (every time you 90 you lose ~40% of your air flow), and is as far away from the intake as possible (opposite sides of the room is best. Preferably with intake closer to the floor and exhaust at ceiling level). You'll want to apply these same principals to your lung room intake and exhaust also, and any intake/exhaust setup you ever put into use for that matter. Right next to each other the fans essentially cancel each other out because the intake will suck in the exhausted air, and then the exhaust will suck out the intake's air creating a loop instead on in out flow. Let me know if that all makes sense?

 

[DHF]

The manifold around the room looks good , and if there was a way ta do completely away with ducting on the exhaust scrubber setups it`d make me feel better , but.....

Maybe there`s a reason why you`ve got the fan mounted at the wall goin back into the studio via the veg room I guess is what we call it with this drawing , and the scrubber mounted in the bloom room.....dunno....

All my scrubbers were always mounted directly to my vortex inline fans for optimum performance and were rated for the cfm`s the fans performed at.....not sure how shit works with the fan that far away from the scrubber...again....dunno....

Exhaust out of studio needs to be further away from the passive intake you`ve drawn on the inside wall , and was wondering why yas had a 90 degree bend with ductwork for the bloom room intake goin thru smaller room , instead of just directly "thru-wall" mid ways in the studio wall hooked directly to the manifold so air hits manifold and goes both ways around the room to equalize pressure .....but.....

I`m no HVAC expert , but with the a/c and dehuey in the lung area controlling environment as it gets pumped in and sucked out , that should end up bein a tight lil dank producer with dialed strains , and all bugs worked out....

Holler back.....DHF..........

 

[McKush]

Shake N Bake Bobby, Shake N Bake!

Huun-Huur-Tu's album Sixty Horses in My Herd. Fucking awesome. Checkity check it.

 

[McKush]

Listen to it then google Tuvan throat singing and you will know what the fuck I'm into, that and maui waui. Awesomeness and a groovy way to start the day. Next up ventilation design feedback and then a sweet day of con-fucking-struc-tion. We must destroy to create.

 

[McKush]

Gents - I've read & re-read your posts. Here is my current redesigned FR ventilation plan.
What do you think?

I'm using sunleaves 12" 1125cfm fans to combination of DIY ducting in excavated crawl space and DIY plenum under the ledge.

I'm wanting to use 8" rigid stove pipe & fittings to custom plenum where one of the sunleaves wind tunnels sits.

I think I can connect two ceiling mounted carbon filters and wye them to a 12" flex line feeding the hot exhaust into the other 12" wind tunnel. (I plan to additionally soundproof the 18.5 DIA fans by encasing in greenboard and 2" framing.

ALSO - I hear what you are saying about watts per sq ft. I can change my design to put the wall back to the face of the ledge and separate the two spaces. However I want to put a veg closet sitting on the ledge within the FR. I will control its environment too. So I'll start with a tent for veggie and later maybe build a permanent kick ass closet on the one end of the ledge.

SO - that said I prolly still need to add another light. So will add an additional ePap. Will look for cheapo veggie light solution if I have to otherwise it is still dPap time for veggie tent.

I may not put two ePaps in at the same time but I'm following your sagely advice(s) in the current design so I'm always a bit oversized. I'll dim the fans with a speed controller for sure to dial it in.

Please your comments at your earliest convenience... I have to build this design soon. I'm almost catching up to myself and the design ....

view looking back to ledge from house:

 

[high life 45]

quite the build you got going, love seeing clean carpentry.