ImaginaryFriend's INTERPRETATION of Delta9nxs' PASSIVE PLANT KILLERS

[oldone]

Hi IF,

The media wick provides a predictable level for the PWT, and as we manage the 'air gap' between the base of our root mass zone and the solution we can insure that this PWT does not drown our roots. As various stuff have various capillary capacity, using our media itself provides us with the capacity to control the level of the PWT, where as fabric wicks might bring more solution into our root mass than we'd otherwise choose.

Intuition suggests that to maximize our passive solution penetration, we ought to keep our PWT as close to the bottom of our buckets/containers without actually bringing the PWT into them.

Hmmmmmmmm,

It was the "...where as fabric wicks might bring more solution into our root mass..." that caught my eye. This must be true of media wicks as well. A newly potted plant will require much less fluid than when it finishes. Does this make the media wick ppk enviroment too wet in the early stages? I dont think so. Coco can only get so wet then wicking action stops.

If a fabric wick holds more water than the coco can use there must be a small localized wet zone right around the wicks. I cant see it being very large because the coco cant absorb the extra fluid.

I guess my point is that any wick cant deliver too much fluid. What do you think?
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Yo oldone,

I don't disagree with your statements above.

When I wrote:

The media wick provides a predictable level for the PWT, and as we manage the 'air gap' between the base of our root mass zone and the solution we can insure that this PWT does not drown our roots. As various stuff have various capillary capacity, using our media itself provides us with the capacity to control the level of the PWT, where as fabric wicks might bring more solution into our root mass than we'd otherwise choose.

I had in mind a uniformity in performance. That is, with a uniform media, if we pack our coco consistently, the end result will be a uniform moisture distribution from bucket to bucket as there is no other dynamic other than the capillary capacity of the media.

I'd like to emphasize that when I use the phrase uniform moisture distribution, I'm not saying that there is even moisture in every part of the containerized media, but rather there is uniformity within the profile from container to container. I imagine there is more solution per cubic unit lower in the container, and we find progressively less solution as we approach the top end of the media's capillary capacity.

Another way of saying this is that the density of solution is uniform laterally, but not vertically.

If a 'fabric wick' has a higher capillary capacity than our media, it will draw--by definition--more solution into the system. I bet you're right in guessing that it will only create a wet spot immediately around the wicks, but if it extends into the media vertically, it will create a different moisture profile than a media wick. I suspect that would have a conical moisture profile.

FEB 2011 EDIT: MY OBSERVATIONS NOW SUGGEST THERE IS A 'MOUNDING' EFFECT DIRECTLY ABOVE THE TOP OF THE WICK. CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT CAPILLARY ACTION IS NOT INSTANTANEOUS, THE WALLS OF THE TOP CONTAINERS HAVE BEEN MODIFIED TO ALLOW FOR EVAPORATION, AND THE RAPID MOISTURE UPTAKE OF A PLANT WITH A HEALTHY ROOT ZONE, THIS MAKES SENSE. I STILL AM FIRMLY BEHIND THE PREDICTABILITY OF THE MEDIA WICK WHEN YOU CONSIDER MANAGING THE PERCHED WATER TABLE AND CONSISTENCY IN PERFORMANCE.

Does that matter? Probably not. It requires uniformity in wick installation of you wish to have a uniformity in moisture profile from container to container. Does that matter? Probably not. In my experience playing with wick cloners over the last few weeks, even a longer wick simply laid across the base of the container is sufficient to change the dynamics of the fluid mobility within the cloner from the ones beside it (otherwise identical units). Does that matter? Probably not.

I believe that the plant's root structure will grow in a manner that is suited for the moisture profile of the container, whether it be horizontal or conical. If you maintain some relative consistency in this, what could possibly go wrong?

I wonder if that wet spot--and no one likes a wet spot--might create the mushy dead zone where there are no roots (that people sometimes find in coco grows)? Does that really matter even if it exists? Probably not.

One last thing comes to mind in discussing the use of non-media wicks. *mistress*, in D9s thread, suggested some of the microfiber cloths may contain an electric charge that would influence... something. I forget what. Time to go back to D9s thread and see if I can find it...

 

[oldone]

I plan to document carefully my post chop rootball investigation. Should be very interesting..

How could it have a conical moisture profile when the coco cant accept more than x fluid? Strangely, I think your right but I dont know why.

I remember *mistress* (and D9) commenting on micro fiber needing "..some kind of external mechanical force..." to deliver the wicked fluid. IE, you had to squeeze it to derive benefit. With all due (and heartfelt) respect, that has not been my experience.

this is fun eh?
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

this is fun eh?

Super fun.

I haven't had a chance to run my brains around like this since... well... a long time ago.

There's been a nice improvement in the quality of my life over the last month since I got on board in this PPK idea with you guys. For the first time in years, I seem to be catching a few breaks, and having a few opportunities open up to me. I think this project has my coaxed my brain to start working with a bit more curiosity, a bit more agility... I dunno. But I like the way my life is going today. (And it's not all that different from a month ago. You figure it out for me, huh?)

coco cant accept more than x fluid

I'm thinking about it like water pressure. Sure, there's only so many gallons in a lake, but when you dive deeper, you can feel the force of the water above you increase.

Capillary action has a parallel force principle. So there's more hydraulic pressure at the bottom of the pot than there is in the middle. The total x isn't uniformly distributed throughout the media. There's more of it at the bottom... because of capillary actions relationship with gravity et al.

Capillary action is a combination of cohesive and adhesive forces acting against gravity. Like a rock climber. If he can grip strong enough (adhesion) and pull himself towards what he's gripping (cohesion) he can overcome gravity.

In the case of a wick that has a higher capillary action than the media, it effectively pulls more mositure higher into the system than the media would alone. The more it extends into the media, there's going to be a wetter 'hump' surrounding that wick. Because there's more solution 'pushing' out there, it can help 'push' more solution out from there, and more out from there. That's where the cone profile comes from. I wish I had/knew-how-to-use 2d drafting software... save me a thousand words.

 

[oldone]

I wish I knew how to use 2d drafting software... save me a thousand words.

Nah...3D is the bomb...I give you Google Sketchup. Here is my original design;

This shows the ebb and flow setup (the roof and doors omitted for clarity). The cab was carefully designed around available containers at the time. When I finalize my ppk design (if ever) I'll update the model.

Thats the point, you can model exactly what you want, try different things and do interference fits and a whole lot more. Its very worthwhile and I can help.

For the first time in years, I seem to be catching a few breaks

Yeah, like you have time to think of improvements, not just solutions to problems...I'm right there with you.


Regards,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Another Grow Gone To Shit.

Another Grow Gone To Shit.

Well,

I should probably pull all my posts of this thread, and whole damn forum, in fact.

For the last year, I've been trying to grow out a long standing DJ Short FLO cut. I've had the toxic N-G-W.com 1/2 blue hose in my last two grows, first as primary feeder lines in my RDWC set up, then as a top off reservoir in my last effort. The first grow was a shit show all the way through flower, and the last one was another solid failure.

During this grow, I was feeling pretty clever.

I stopped f'n around with RDWC, and found a super stable grow system. But I plumbed my bulk reservoir to my root-zone res with that N-G-W shit. Maybe five feet total; three from the bulk reservoir, two between plants. Then U.G.U released the info on toxicity issues, and I pulled it from my system and got the rest of the stored shit out of the room. My grow didn't show any toxicity issues, or mag deficiency, or yellowing. Thought I was in the clear...

Today, exactly one week into flower, I sat down with my plants as the lights kicked on. And there is one female pre-flower. And only one.

The rest of the plants are covered in ball-sacks. Somehow, the universe conspired sickeningly to swap female to male. I'm not talking hermi here, full on male bullshit.

It may not be the pipe, or it might be the pipe plus the heat, or anything else... who the fuck knows.

Who the fuck cares.

Another failure.

Awesome.

Well, now I guess we know the PPK grows robust male plants too...

 

[oldone]

Wow IF, I am so sorry to hear that.

Am I to understand that you had 2 female clones that have become totally males? I have never heard of this before.

Who the fuck cares.

I do.

Dont give up bro,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Yeah.

These cuts are quite a few years old, and have no history of instability.

Even when I was running the shitty hose RDWC, they limped and dragged themselves to the finish as girls.

I've really struggled with cloning these ladies. My success has been extremely low, and those cuts that do root take a long time. In Rapid Rooters. In coco. In EZ Cloners. In straight up cups of water. Of course, I've always been cloning around that shit hose...

So the start of their life is stressful. The last few successful cuts were emergency cuts taken out of flower, and they've had to revert.

I've been running hot temps with low humidity too.

It may be that I've just compiled too many stresses and freaked the poor girls out.

When I asked "Who cares?", I meant: who cares why its happening. The end result is that I'm shut down again.

I expect that if I can start a new grow, I'll be doing it with entirely new genetics, as this cloning issue really has me down. Never figured what the issue was there either... too many factors. Not to mention that I don't have any confirmed rootings off the last series of cuts, and I don't know if they'll be females or morphs...

I'm crushed.

But busy.

So I'm going to redirect my energy into other work, rather than dwelling on this. I might let them run out for another week to see what happens. If it looks like female flowers are showing up, I might run it out.

I can't imagine the male preflowers are going to be all sterile, but maybe totally seeded is better than nothing.

Due to outside obligations, I can't start anything new...

I was so pleased with them this run. So pretty, with such good structure.

Aw Fuck.

 

[delta9nxs]

holy shit! after all this! did they hermie on you? does the heat cause hermies?

strongly suggest a different strain.

i've had one partial hermie episode with the sweet tooth when a light got left on for 12 hrs during the dark cycle. what i got was immature non-viable seed in the buds.

i'm very sorry. don't let this get to you. it just means a little more time.

a very strange thing, this sex reversal is.

d9

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

D9,

Have you seen any of the posts related to the NGW toxic pipe?

There are reports of hermaphrodites in plants that have been exposed to the gasses that are coming off that shit.

Robust strains survive, weaker one's fail. And my cut of FLO, apparently becomes male.

Or maybe a slow developing hermi... I just went to say 'hi', you know, 'cause I still love them, even if they're a little different... and I found another set of stamen.

That makes two.

Hurray.

Actually, I'm feeling sufficiently enthusiastic to mix up a batch of food, and see what happens. These ladies/gents are still beautiful. Some of the nicest structure, and great vegetative bulk... monstrous stems.

We'll see...

On the sex reversal, I had a silly thought yesterday.

I thought, well, maybe this hose is useful for all these feminize seed companies that self fert... cheaper and easier than colodial silver...

And thinking of that thought today gave me a moment of hope, because C.S. males will revert back to females if you stop silvering them up. Or so I think I read. And if I'm wrong, don't tell me!

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Well,

I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not ashamed to beg. And I've been pleading with my little girls.

And look, GIRL PARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:

Together:

On the Left:

On the Right:

I'm just going to keep telling them that I love them, and that I made the BAD PIPE go away. Maybe that'll bring 'em back around!!!!!

 

[oldone]

I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not ashamed to beg. And I've been pleading with my little girls.

And look, GIRL PARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:

Thats fantastic news, IF. Maybe the MJ gods were just testing you.

"....covered in ball-sacks." Got any pics? So take some tiny scissors and start castrating. You wont get them all but each one you do get will make you feel better. I know, I've done the same.

Why are your temps so high? I can find anywhere where you've stated the ambient temps. Live in the desert, do you?

Best of luck,
OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Temps are high because of my venting limitations...

Things are getting into a more reasonable range right now, running between 75-95 degrees within the tent. I noticed in 110 in there one day, and my bulk res has had temps up to 104. But with the light cycle being 12-12, things are more moderate.

I pinched all offending preflowers immediately, before I thought to take pics.

Maybe they weren't ever there and I just needed a good freak out. Yeah that's it. I was hallucinating and these girls will stay virgins forever.

 

[jjfoo]

Imag Fr,

Do you have access to CO2? With all the light and heat , CO2 maybe the bottle neck in the growth rate.

What is the current rel humidity and EC of your nutes going in?

What EC

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

RH: 25-40%

EC 400-2400 (on my meter... most people report it like this: .4-2.4).

I have a tent that is ~4x4x6... so that's... um... 96 cubic feet. I have a 220cfm vent through a carbon filter...

So it's an open room. Exchanging full volume twice per minute.

So supplementation is out the window.

Figuratively and literally...

I've got a couple grand in co2 control and supplementation equipment. The supplementation sits on the storage shelf (beside the chiller and twelve air pumps), but I have the monitor/controller plugged in, and it always reads between 600ppm and 850ppm. Never below. So my ambient CO2 is decent... when you consider the amount of flow going through the tent.

Is it the limiting factor? I think that the veg that sits on the cool tubes would benefit from some enrichment as it is getting bombarded by 7000 candle power, but the rest of the plant seems green and vibrant and happy. There are no CO2 dead zones in the canopy... and it's the best I can do right here right now.

I've seen you on D9s thread quite a bit lately.

Good luck with your grow...

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[oldone]

Hi IF,

How they doing? Last I heard your ladies were shining through and the ballsacks were just a bad memory.

I'm interested in your ec/ph readings. You and I used to have relatively the same but mine seem to have settled down with Jacks:
date___ppk_______bulk
0927 1.5/5.6 - 1.5/5.5
0926 1.4/5.7 - 1.5/5.4
0925 1.4/5.8 - 1.5/5.3 - pkk EC definitely dropping slowly
0924 1.5/5.8 - 1.5/5.3 - both 1.5ec low estimate 1.45
0923 1.5/5.4 - 1.5/5.4 - after swap to 1.5
0923 0.9/6.7 - 1.0/5.1
0922 1.0/6.4 - 1.0/5.5
0921 1.0/5.5 - 1.0/5.5 - changeover to Jacks

I'm thinking the brown sludge that accumulates using FNB must have some effect. Anyway, I'm getting happily bored again and I hope you are too.

see ya,
OO

 

[oldone]

I have a 220cfm vent through a carbon filter...

So it's an open room. Exchanging full volume twice per minute.

Just a thought on your heating issues;

A fan that blows 220 cfm just running wont get close to that through a scrubber. What pressure rating is your fan? If you can improve airflow temps will drop and thats a good thing.

Is your cooltube vented separately?

On the other hand, you are a self confessed tinkerer and probably researched this to death so just tell me its covered and I'll shut up. LOL

OO

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Since I flushed my system post-N-G-W.com-BULLSHIT my pH has been less stable.

My guess is that I blew the equilibrium between the media and the reservoir when I did the full change out... and then I over compensated for the swing with my next batch then overcompensated for the next batch...

I've also been monkeying around with formulations, not because of clever science, but because I ran out of my MagICal bottle (It's cal is source is Calcium Nitrate, so I was bumping my N with it too), and keep thinking I'm ordering Jacks tomorrow.

Hey, today is the twelfth tomorrow in a row, from yesterday's perspective.

So maybe today?

In general, I'm not stable right now, but that's user error--that is, I'm not running a consistently mixed solution so it's absurd that the system would reach equilibrium.

---

I'm not worried about the temps. Ambient temps have dropped about 20 degrees since the days of 110, and I'm only running lights at night now.

The girls look as good as I've seen, stretch is almost where I wanted it to be (I wouldn't have minded a couple of extra inches as of today on my top tops), and color is good.

My 220 is a Panasonic Whisper inline. Beautiful fan. So quite. So efficient. I have bigger fans that would drop the temp, but then I have a host of new security concerns with noise and wooshing air.

Medical or not, it does not seem prudent to draw attention the fact that I may have something that other folks of dubious ethic might want.

Discretion has got to be the better part of something.

Additionally, for this same reason, my build out on the vent exiting the room is extremely inefficient from the perspective of air flow, but looks like everything else from the outside.

As I only have this direct vent option, air flow as to be pulled through a can fan. My can is pretty damn big, as I sized initially it for a room 16 times as large as this tent (not ambition--different location with high ceilings in a dedicated room). So I have a lot of surface area to pull through, even though the can is a restriction. I have sweeps in the ducting... I know how much that reduces flow, but it is currently set up as a pull, and it's as clean as I can make it.

---

I've plucked all balls that I've found.

No more showing up.

In the threads I've read on colloidal silver to push plants to morf for self'd seeds, I've seen it said that it needs a consistent application to keep girls boys. I'm hoping since I've pulled the off-gassing pipe from the environment, there is no more stress and they've gone back to expressing their natural-beautiful-selves.

---

I'm happy with the condition of things. If I could just get myself to wash the dishes, vacuum the living room, take out the garbage and order Jacks, the world would be perfectly ordered. Of course, such a fundamental shift as having a spotless kitchen might be enough to knock the planet off axis, out of orbit, and possibly disturb the expansion of the entire universe.

So I'm not going to do the dishes today.

For the sake of the universe.

 

[InducedSerenity]

IF, forgive my tardiness but I just finally happened upon your show!

Great tech breakdown that I think many of us were hoping for, I certainly needed it. I hope your herm / male scare turns out to be as minor as mine (see my freakout on page 2-3 of my log) and you can finish successfully and swap genetics for next run.

Will be following! good luck.

iS

 

[InducedSerenity]

Good call on the dishes.

I doubt I even need to mention this, as it seems that every time someone has made a suggestion you already have the necessary parts but they don't fit into your security parameters, but are duct silencers an option for you? I actually made 4 5' long ones so that each end of my fans would be covered by one and it made a ridiculous difference - the grow exhausts into a room and nobody has any idea it's not standard air. You can't even hear the fans anymore.