Hydro Innovations' Freezer Reversed Engineered?

[RedRain]

well 1 hp eco plus chiller draws 8 amps @ 120. 1 hp can only cool 100 gal.

how many watts are you cooling with your setup?

Are you just talking theory or do you own chillers and have actually tested and looked at the draw? I have done this and found it to be too costly, expensive, but stealthy.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4175454&postcount=262

g33kdro uses 1.5 hp to cool just a mere 3000w. pulling 8.8 amps. you can easily cool 3000w with a mini split or ductless split that will consume half that. not to mention your blowers and cost of ducting.

it sounds like you are not even using a chiller to cool your water. It sounds like you are just runing tap water. that is cost effective especially if you have free water. I like using a large rad and drain to waste water to cool. this way you eliminate the power cost of running a chiller and blowers etc and the heat that a chiller generates.

i have found when you use a chiller to chill water to cool your room, the cost to run the setup, and initial startup costs exceed those of air to air cooling.

HOWEVER, certain watercooling does not leave you with an outdoor unit, making your cooling stealthy versus having a condenser outside.

 

[RedRain]

nothing eh?

no one who owns a chiller can come in and back these claims up?

give me hard proof, so far its a pipedream and those who have spoken up are using double the power to run their chillers compared to an AC.

 

[fireburner23]

nothing eh?

no one who owns a chiller can come in and back these claims up?

give me hard proof, so far its a pipedream and those who have spoken up are using double the power to run their chillers compared to an AC.

I have been doing a lot of research into this water-cooling technology and to be honest, I am not sure there is a lot of savings to be had.

Curious question though, can you have multiple heat exchangers on one split unit.

For example, I have three 6x6 rooms that are sealed that need to be cooled. Could I run three heat exchanger and only have one compressor?

Seems rather expensive to buy three mini-split systems, would it be easier to just buy three window ac units?

 

[spurr]

I am starting a new grow very soon with a 8" Ice Box, 1 HP water chiller, day/night thermostat to control fan speed for the Ice Box, 8" BlockBuster reflector, etc., in a closed room. I will post what I experience and the electric usage. I do think it will work out very well after looking at the science of using a heat exchanger to cool the lamp air and/or room with sufficiently sized water chiller and rez.

 

[spurr]

I have been doing a lot of research into this water-cooling technology and to be honest, I am not sure there is a lot of savings to be had.

Curious question though, can you have multiple heat exchangers on one split unit.

For example, I have three 6x6 rooms that are sealed that need to be cooled. Could I run three heat exchanger and only have one compressor?

Seems rather expensive to buy three mini-split systems, would it be easier to just buy three window ac units?

What do you mean by "compressor"? You can run multiple heat exchangers off of a single rez if the water chiller is of sufficient size.

 

[fireburner23]

What do you mean by "compressor"? You can run multiple heat exchangers off of a single rez if the water chiller is of sufficient size.

I am talking about having one condenser and compressor (the outdoor unit) and multiple evaporators. Is it possible?

I found out that it is possible and they are called Multi Head Split Systems, http://www.mitsubishielectric.com.au/Multi-Head-Split-System-Air-Conditioner.htm

 

[the_extremist]

Hey, just a heads up for anyone considering water-cooled lighting:

I'm currently using a Hydro Innovations 6" Ice Box with an EcoPlus 1HP chiller, everything plumbed to their specs, 1" cold line 1.25" return line, 1600gph pump, over 250cfm fan pulling aire through a vented hood and through the heat exchanger, blah blah blah. All this shit is supposed to be able to cool up to 1kw lamp per 1/4 HP. In theory, 4kw of lighting according to Hydro Innovations.

Well, I'm currently only running a single 1kw Hortilux Blue MH for veg and this system can barely keep my 6x8' veg area below 85*F. And the goddamn chiller is in a separate area. The thing they don't tell you, and what I had to find out the hard way, is that you need to have a way to get rid of all the hot hot, HOT fucking air that the chiller blows out of its ass end when it removes the heat from the water. I have a 110 cfm bathroom fan exhausting down the shitter pipe in the utility room where the chiller is, but it can't move that much hot air. So the chiller sits in its own hot exhaust air and ends up not being able to properly exchange heat because of all the friggin heat it's putting into the air.

Think about it, man. And this didn't dawn on me until I'd spent the fucking money and set everything up. You're pulling the heat out of the air moving through your hood with the heat exchanger and putting it in the water. Then, you're using the chiller to take that exact same heat and remove it from the water and put it right back into the air. Which means that in spurr's closed room, he won't be doing anything but moving all that heat from his lights right on over to the ass end of the chiller and right back into the grow room. Point A to Point B. That heat has to go somewhere, man. It doesn't just disappear. That chiller is just another big-ass, expensive heat exchanger doing the exact opposite of what that Ice Box is doing.

Again, I learned it the hard way. Heed my words. Beware of anybody from Texas trying to sell you anything, let alone something for indoor gardening. Those fuckers are fast-talking shysters. If you dig around in their video section on their website you'll find where they tell you their system only works with their super expensive industrial chillers that have to be placed outside and are bigger than a frickin A/C unit.

Water cooled lighting is a neat idea and looks great on paper, but it's fucking expensive to set up and impractical and relatively complicated compared to either an A/C system or air cooling.

Let's put it this way:

I have all the stuff ready to go for my mini split installation.

Matter of fact, forget I said anything, spurr.
Wanna buy a chiller?

 

[spurr]

Hey, just a heads up for anyone considering water-cooled lighting:

I'm currently using a Hydro Innovations 6" Ice Box with an EcoPlus 1HP chiller, everything plumbed to their specs, 1" cold line 1.25" return line, 1600gph pump, over 250cfm fan pulling aire through a vented hood and through the heat exchanger, blah blah blah. All this shit is supposed to be able to cool up to 1kw lamp per 1/4 HP. In theory, 4kw of lighting according to Hydro Innovations.

If you are using only one Ice Box why are you using manifold lines? You only need 1/2" I.D. lines unless you use a manifold. What model ecoplus chiller? The older black ecoplus chillers have pretty low BTU rating, much below 1 HP (ideally 1hp = 1 ton = 12,000 btu). That is why I got the new white 'commercial' unit and even that unit at 1 HP only has ~8,525 BTU cooling; nowhere near the 12,000 BTU a Chill King offers.

What is the head pressure of the water pump (e.g., how high will it pump)? Using manifold lines without a manifold can be a source of you problems...

A 1,000w HID (ex., HPS) will put out ~4,000 BTU (3,500 btu of lamp heat and about 500 btu of radiant heat). To use water cooled lamp via Ice Box correctly you need to add up all the BTUs from your lamp/s. The total BTU for the lamp should be less than 90% of the BTU from the chiller (ideally < 85%).

Examples:

• lamp BTU/chiller BTU*100 = percent of 'extra' chilling BTUs if under 100.
• chiller BTU*.9 = max BTUs from lamp to cool lamp with an 'extra' 10% BTU for cooling left over.
• lamp BTU/.9 = needed BTUs from chiller to cool lamp with 10% 'extra' BTUs for cooling left over.

If you want to use the Ice Box to cool the room and the lamp heat you need to add up all BTUs in the room (ex., lamp/s, ballast/s, dehui, etc.). Then you need to use a chiller that offer greater BTUs of cooling than the BTUs put out by your room. The total BTU for the room should be equal to or less than 85% of the BTU from the chiller, ideally. Ex., if you have 7,246 BTUs of heat from your room, you need at least 8,525 BTUs of cooling from the chiller.

Examples:

• room BTU/chiller BTU*100 = percent of 'extra' chilling BTUs if under 100.
• chiller BTU*.85 = max BTUs from room to cool room with an 'extra' 15% BTU for cooling left over.
• room BTU/.85 = needed BTUs from chiller to cool room with 15% 'extra' BTUs for cooling left over.

If you are trying to use the chiller as an A/C unit, as well as to cool the heat from the lamp (like I am planning), you need sufficient BTU output (from chiller) over room BTU input; or less BTU input (from room).

The claim about 1/4 HP for a 1,000w is only accurate for true 1/4 HP chillers, i.e., ~3,000 BTUs of cooling. That won't happen with the black Ecoplus nor the white Ecoplus 1/4 HP chillers. Also, becuase a 1,000w HID puts out ~4,000 BTU a true 1/4 HP chiller will *only* cool the hot air from the hood, not act as an A/C unit to cool the room.

Well, I'm currently only running a single 1kw Hortilux Blue MH for veg and this system can barely keep my 6x8' veg area below 85*F.

What else do you have the produces heat? Is the ballast in the room? It puts out considerable BTUs, even digital models. What you can try is to setup a second Ice Box inline to the first: run 1/2" I.D. hosing from the water pump to the first Ice Box than to the second Ice Box then back to the rez. That makes a much larger surface area for cooling and should work better. Greater surface area is why I bought an 8" Ice Box not a 6". You should call the HydroInnovation or the folks at http://watercooledgardens.com for help; they are very willing to help...

Also, do you have two water pumps? One for the chiller and one for the Ice Box? If not you should try doing so, that is what I going to do; I have the properly rates ecoplus pump for the chiller.

Do you have your rez insulated? You should do so if not, that will keep the water cooler and make your chiller work less hard. That should help with cooling efficiency.

And the goddamn chiller is in a separate area. The thing they don't tell you, and what I had to find out the hard way, is that you need to have a way to get rid of all the hot hot, HOT fucking air that the chiller blows out of its ass end when it removes the heat from the water.

FWIW, the HydroInnovations people are very forthcoming about the need to put the chiller in a separate room or have a way to remove the heat from the chiller; just like using a portable A/C unit (re removing heat); or a mini-split A/C unit (re using a separate room or outside).

I have a 110 cfm bathroom fan exhausting down the shitter pipe in the utility room where the chiller is, but it can't move that much hot air. So the chiller sits in its own hot exhaust air and ends up not being able to properly exchange heat because of all the friggin heat it's putting into the air.

Think about it, man. And this didn't dawn on me until I'd spent the fucking money and set everything up.

No offense, but if you didn't do all the needed research to fully understand how to use it properly it's your fault, not HydroInnvoations.

You're pulling the heat out of the air moving through your hood with the heat exchanger and putting it in the water. Then, you're using the chiller to take that exact same heat and remove it from the water and put it right back into the air. Which means that in spurr's closed room, he won't be doing anything but moving all that heat from his lights right on over to the ass end of the chiller and right back into the grow room. Point A to Point B. That heat has to go somewhere, man. It doesn't just disappear. That chiller is just another big-ass, expensive heat exchanger doing the exact opposite of what that Ice Box is doing.

I never wrote I am putting the chiller in the same room. The chiller is going to be in a separate bedroom and the heat from the chiller will be used to heat my bedroom and my house (via fans in my bedroom)

I am not sure why you are surprised that the chiller puts out heat, the same is true of any A/C unit. You seem to misunderstand the proper setup when you bought your chiller (again, no offense intended, just calling 'um as I see 'um).

Again, I learned it the hard way. Heed my words. Beware of anybody from Texas trying to sell you anything, let alone something for indoor gardening. Those fuckers are fast-talking shysters.

Huh? I know some business from Texas that are great to buy things from, just saying.

If you dig around in their video section on their website you'll find where they tell you their system only works with their super expensive industrial chillers that have to be placed outside and are bigger than a frickin A/C unit.

They do not tell you that in their videos, nor do they tell you that if you talk to them on the phone, nor does the guy from watercooledgardens. They do however tell you that you must have greater cooling BTUs from the chiller than heating BTUs from your grow room; and you have to set it up properly.

Water cooled lighting is a neat idea and looks great on paper, but it's fucking expensive to set up and impractical and relatively complicated compared to either an A/C system or air cooling.

I think you have not seen what a properly setup system can do; of course, neither have I, yet. I will post once I have my system setup next week; I am waiting on a HydroInnvoations fan controller for day/night temp to use the chiller to cool the room in place of A/C.

Yes, it's expensive to buy everything to get going, to get everything you need to do it 'right'. That said, it will (should) pay for itself in no time considering how much electricity costs from A/C (re inefficient cooling of air). Using the chiller in a separate room and either venting the heat for using the heat to heat one's room/house makes it much more stealth and less suspicious than using a window or split A/C unit all winter...

Matter of fact, forget I said anything, spurr.
Wanna buy a chiller?

Nah, I have a good white commercial model already, my total room BTUs will be < ~5,500 and that leaves me > ~3,000 BTUs of cooling of the room; thanks though . What model chiller do you have, the black one? I think you shouldn't give up so fast, it seems you don't have your system setup correctly, or at least optimally, especially because you wrote you are using manifold lines...


Refs:

1. phone conversations with folks from HydroInnovations and watercoolegardens.
2. "Size Matters – How to Properly Size a Chiller" (link to blog from watercooledgardens)

 

[the_extremist]

Ah, you said closed room with a chiller, I misunderstood ya.

The Texas comment is just my PNW pride showing. I got me sum kin down there, yessiree. Nothing against Texas except their politics and their state laws. Those HI guys just sell hard, that's all. Look around on IC and other grow sites, there are other people not satisfied with them and their methods, especially customer service.

Anyhow, I was just trying to help a fellow gardener not waste his money. I hope it all works out for ya, but nothing can trump good ole' first hand experience. And so far my experience with water cooling and the way it was advertised and sold to me has been far from impressive.

Good luck, brother.

 

[the_extremist]

And even if you have the chiller in another area, be prepared to vent to the outside ALOT of hot air and at a very high cfm if you're installing it indoors. Or put it outside. But shit, at that point wouldn't an A/C unit make sense? I thought the whole point of water cooling was stealthiness. Well, that and being different for the sake of being different.

 

[spurr]

Ah, you said closed room with a chiller, I misunderstood ya.

The Texas comment is just my PNW pride showing. I got me sum kin down there, yessiree. Nothing against Texas except their politics and their state laws. Those HI guys just sell hard, that's all. Look around on IC and other grow sites, there are other people not satisfied with them and their methods, especially customer service.

Anyhow, I was just trying to help a fellow gardener not waste his money. I hope it all works out for ya, but nothing can trump good ole' first hand experience. And so far my experience with water cooling and the way it was advertised and sold to me has been far from impressive.

Good luck, brother.

Thanks, and thanks for your input.

Sometime this (or next) week I will know how well, or how unwell, my setup works.

FWIW, I find HydroInnovations customer service to be top notch; YMMV I guess. They always answer when I call and they have more than a couple of tech people to talk to on staff, at least every time I have called. They have been sufficiently knowledgeable when I talked to a few different people. They were even nice enough to tell me how to hack their Co2 monitor/controller (to reduce Co2 ppm presets to sane levels of 800-1,000 ppm) when I was thinking about buying one. I got a Sentential CHHC-4 instead to monitor/control Co2 and temp, dehumidifier, etc.

BTW, why are you using manifold lines instead of 1/2" lines? And are you using the old black model chiller? Also, is your rez insulated? I ask because your responses might be able to help me (and others) setup everything correctly.

P.S. I updated my post after you read it, I think. I added a bit of math for ICmag members you may find useful. If you notice any errors in what I wrote please let me know

Edited text:

A 1,000w HID (ex., HPS) will put out ~4,000 BTU (3,500 btu of lamp heat and about 500 btu of radiant heat). To use water cooled lamp via Ice Box correctly you need to add up all the BTUs from your lamp/s. The total BTU for the lamp should be less than 90% of the BTU from the chiller (ideally < 85%).

Examples:

• lamp BTU/chiller BTU*100 = percent of 'extra' chilling BTUs if under 100.
• chiller BTU*.9 = max BTUs from lamp to cool lamp with an 'extra' 10% BTU for cooling left over.
• lamp BTU/.9 = needed BTUs from chiller to cool lamp with 10% 'extra' BTUs for cooling left over.

If you want to use the Ice Box to cool the room and the lamp heat you need to add up all BTUs in the room (ex., lamp/s, ballast/s, dehui, etc.). Then you need to use a chiller that offer greater BTUs of cooling than the BTUs put out by your room. The total BTU for the room should be equal to or less than 85% of the BTU from the chiller, ideally. Ex., if you have 7,246 BTUs of heat from your room, you need at least 8,525 BTUs of cooling from the chiller.

Examples:

• room BTU/chiller BTU*100 = percent of 'extra' chilling BTUs if under 100.
• chiller BTU*.85 = max BTUs from room to cool room with an 'extra' 15% BTU for cooling left over.
• room BTU/.85 = needed BTUs from chiller to cool room with 15% 'extra' BTUs for cooling left over.

 

[spurr]

And even if you have the chiller in another area, be prepared to vent to the outside ALOT of hot air and at a very high cfm if you're installing it indoors. Or put it outside. But shit, at that point wouldn't an A/C unit make sense? I thought the whole point of water cooling was stealthiness. Well, that and being different for the sake of being different.

The main reason to use water cooling of air (for lamp and/or room) is due to the much greater efficiency of (basically) using water to cool air than using air to cool air. A water chiller is more stealthy if it can be setup inside a home; just like a portable A/C unit is more stealthy than a window or split A/C unit.

The reason I am going to use water cooling is for: #1 stealth and #2 cooling efficiency.

 

[the_extremist]

I built a manifold in anticipation of cooling a couple 1kw's for my bloom area. I just never bothered to go that far because as it is, the system barely cools a single 1kw. Res is not insulated, but the real problem is the chiller sitting in its own heat, that's pretty obvious. I'm sure the system would work better if I could vent that heat somewhere, but it would take a tremendous amount of air exchange to do so effectively and at the point why bother? Just vent the fucking lights, y'know?

It's too late to bother fucking around with it. I have a schedule to keep with the garden and I don't have time to tinker and experiment with it. Besides, I think going with a mini split will end up being more reliable in the end. A nice piece of HVAC equipment properly installed vs. a pump burning out, or a fan going out, or whatever other piece of the h2o system that could fail and you're screwed. I have patients to provide for and there are just too many variables. I'll sleep better with the mini split.

I have the black EcoPlus 1hp. Bought it brand new in December.

Good luck, bro.

 

[spurr]

I built a manifold in anticipation of cooling a couple 1kw's for my bloom area. I just never bothered to go that far because as it is, the system barely cools a single 1kw. Res is not insulated, but the real problem is the chiller sitting in its own heat, that's pretty obvious. I'm sure the system would work better if I could vent that heat somewhere, but it would take a tremendous amount of air exchange to do so effectively and at the point why bother? Just vent the fucking lights, y'know?

It's too late to bother fucking around with it. I have a schedule to keep with the garden and I don't have time to tinker and experiment with it. Besides, I think going with a mini split will end up being more reliable in the end. A nice piece of HVAC equipment properly installed vs. a pump burning out, or a fan going out, or whatever other piece of the h2o system that could fail and you're screwed. I have patients to provide for and there are just too many variables. I'll sleep better with the mini split.

I have the black EcoPlus 1hp. Bought it brand new in December.

Good luck, bro.

Sounds good; I hope the mini split works well for ya (I'm sure it will).

I do not vent hoods because I need to be sure no smell gets outside of my house. I bought a big ass Can Fan 50 with 6" high output fan for the room, but I still will not risk getting busted by having smells escape by venting outside. Also, I do not like cutting big holes in walls or ceiling to vent (and for intake) so I use a closed room. I only vent at start of night to drop Co2 to < 500 ppm; I vent into my house using a 4" hose with Can fan carbon scrubber.

 

[the_extremist]

Awesome. I look forward to seeing it all set up man. Kudos to guys like yourself who have to patience to see if the new stuff works well.