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HOW MANY CHILDREN NEED TO DIE BEFORE GUN LAWS CHANGE IN THE USA

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moose eater

Well-known member
What would you do to address the situation given the constraints of the Constitution?

Background checks everyone agrees on. Still nothing gets done...

I honestly believe that a bare minimum of training and basic psychological evaluation on top of a background check should be the standard.

But even hardcore gun-controlling NY couldn't stop an 18year old with precedent from playing Call of Duty with a rifle in a supermarket. That's with Background checks, purchase restrictions and red flag gun laws.
Ironically, the same folks who often claim that "enforcing the existing gun laws" is the answer, scream loudly over the red flag laws.

Red flag laws are, in essence, an extension of some of the general tenor in the Form 4473/Form 1/Form 4 (however Uncle Sam's misconceptions re. drug use might or might not be irrelevant, extraneous, etc.). The Forms in reference basically try to ferret out and determine what the red flag laws get at; that if you're perceived as a threat to others, you shouldn't have a firearm. Complicated further by the fluid nature of human mind-set. A threat today might not be a threat tomorrow. And a non-threat today may well be a threat tomorrow.

Whether that means assigning LEO to seize existing firearms at one's home in those cases where a person comes up as qualified for such enforcement, or just stopping the purchase during a NICS check, remains to be a matter of interpretation.

And I'd be among the first to acknowledge the shortcomings of bureaucratic biases, ignorance, over-reaction, under-reaction, etc.

There's also the issue of loosely obtained versus justifiably obtained TRO's and there often being a circumstance involving one-party testimony with sometimes questionable evidence offered up in obtaining a temporary restraining order. And there is often perjury in any contentious family or domestic court process. Been there and done that, and paid some dues, while the other party was never overtly held accountable for their perjury, nearly 40 years ago.

Fortunately, over time, their same antics in numerous other relationships painted them for who and what they were.

The red flag laws get all sorts of blowback from the NRA types, too. And suspension, even temporary, of constitutional rights, based on 'what ifs' gets more than a little precarious, as it probably ought to.

But the states and localities are already empowered to engage in gun restrictions and prohibitions that the SCOTUS has typically backed off from intervening in.

As a kid, in order to hunt when I was 11, we were required to take a firearms safety course. We were also, as part of that, required to take a hunting course that was a part of that (not 2 separate courses). Not a bad idea at all, in my opinion. You have to pass a driver's test in order to drive a car, right?

When I was a kid, they took it one step further and mandated driver's education, too (every trip to town these days I find myself wishing they'd still do that, by the way). :)

The New York case I'm not familiar with the intricacies sufficiently to comment knowledgably, but I know that one shortcoming in the states that restrict firearm types and purchases, is that they're often next door to other states where there's much easier access to (unlawful) strawman purchases of firearms (the East Coast to the south of New York having numerous states where firearms flow easily), third party buys, and the freeway leading straight into those states that otherwise restrict.

New Yorkers aren't typically manufacturing firearms in their basements, unless they're into 3D printer stuff and not too many are that I know of.

Causing law enforcement to stop being party to undermining legitimate safety regs and laws would be nice, too. That has been a factor in some recent mass shootings.

Probably a dozen things we/I haven't written about or considered.

In the end, teaching better respect to our children re. other humans, whether LGBTQ, or political party affiliation, or race, or.... on and on.. This is a value of human life and view of our place in the universe issue as much as it's a hardware issue. I see that as a major difference between the Swiss experience and ours where mass violence and access to firearms is concerned.

How do you teach a Country with too much nationalist bravado that John Wayne-ism isn't necessarily cool, and that understanding and patience often requires more guts and self-discipline than squeezing a trigger?

Karmically we have a long way to go. As a culture, as a species, and more.

That's my .20 cents on the question(s) you asked.
 
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Tynehead Tom

Well-known member
so much fail in this thread from beginning to end.
ever been a victim and had to fight for your life? I have, almost died, miracle I didnt bleed out on my living room floor. Wish I had just unlocked a gun..... I had time...... but opted not too because i didnt want to kill anyone..... shoulda pulled the gun. Now I live with a lifetime affliction of ptsd and I fucking trust no one.... I only make friends on the forums I am on...... arms length ..... that's good enough LOL In my daily life I am a recluse and I am armed and fucking dangerous.
The next scumbag who thinks they are gonna rob my grow , beat me and stab me and leave me for dead is gonna get a big surprise in that 10 seconds of life they have left before thier lights go out.
I choose not to be a victim ever again in this ever increasingly dangerous world. The US and Canada are becoming so socially decayed with lieberal/demoncrat bullshit ..... it won't be long before folks will have had enough. In fact many countries being led by the lefty socialist WEF puppets are turning on thier lefty masters and ousting them at the polls. France will be next...... america too if they know what is good for them.
I look at countries like Venezuela where the people were led down the garden path by the same ideology as the lieberals/demoncrats and the big push to disarm that nation. As soon as all the licensed gun owners firearms were taken away...... In lightning speed the good lives of Venezuelans was no more. They now live under a authoritarian regime and can do nothing about it.
People who fear guns so much need to check themselves..... seriously.
In countries where civillians have no access to firearms , unregulated items like battery acid become a weapon.... lets not even talk about knives or bats LOL or how about pitch forks? How about chain saws?
How about simple BBQ propane tanks? Heck I could make one of those level a house to it's foundations and probably the house on each side with just a BBQ tank and a birthday candle....... but hey...... lets ban firearms LOL

It's so bloody ridiculous that people blame guns. Society is in decay, over run with depravity from the left. Mental health and addiction are being ignored. Violent crime is skyrocketting and some people are so scared of guns they want to take my "right" to defend my life or those innocents around me?
There's two kinds of people in this world...... Gun owners and Victims..... I'll never be a victim again thankyou very much.

Incidentally that home invasion of my grow op was on valentine's day in 2005. I shut down everything I was involved in the next day. I didn't grow another plant until I joined this site at the end of 2015. 10 years before I could get past my ptsd enough to have a grow.

and people here have the nerve to tell me I don't need a gun.... or think they should be able to decide how many rounds my magaine holds LOL
get over yourselves and your fear.
It's your right to not be a victim
It's your right to own a firearm
That firearm could save your life or the lives of those around you in the event that some nutjob goes off


Here where I live , 5 hours south of me down in vancouver....... a guy standing with his kid in a stroller outside a starbucks..... knifed and died right there on the spot because he asked a guy not to vape so close to him and his kid....... meanwhile a guy on a bus does the reach around and slits a guys throat.... no warning, nothing, just right out of the blue slits a guys throat...... our prime minister says it was a muslim extremist and is calling it a terrorist attack...... then just this morning another innocent kid is stabbed and left for dead on a bus......

I mean WTF..... a good guy with a gun could have stopped every single one of these incidents...... but no , lets not go down that path..... let's not report on or talk about the thousands of lives saved every day in north america by good upstanding civillians with firearms..... nope.... let's just ignore those facts.

people kill people..... stop scapegoating the firearm and gaslighting with all the "mass shooting" liberal/democrat propaganda speak. They never used to call it that you know. It was a recently made up phrase to use as the perfect gaslighting tool. LOL
So 4 people or more, injured or killed is now a "mass shooting" eh?
What did they used to call all the gang turf shootout victims that show up at hospitals or morgues in groups of 4 or more? Nothing..... that's what. They just said how many were injured or killed. Now, because so many people are gullible and lack the critical thinking necessary to see thru the bullshit...... 4 or more is a mass shooting. LOL
So ya if you swallowed thier koolaid..... ya, mass shootings are on the rise ..... but only since they coined the term.
Sad when people die but more folks die from mistakes by doctors and pharmacists than all the gun deaths combined. But no one is asking to limit or ban doctors and phamacists are they?
 

moose eater

Well-known member
so much fail in this thread from beginning to end.
ever been a victim and had to fight for your life? I have, almost died, miracle I didnt bleed out on my living room floor. Wish I had just unlocked a gun..... I had time...... but opted not too because i didnt want to kill anyone..... shoulda pulled the gun. Now I live with a lifetime affliction of ptsd and I fucking trust no one.... I only make friends on the forums I am on...... arms length ..... that's good enough LOL In my daily life I am a recluse and I am armed and fucking dangerous.
The next scumbag who thinks they are gonna rob my grow , beat me and stab me and leave me for dead is gonna get a big surprise in that 10 seconds of life they have left before thier lights go out.
I choose not to be a victim ever again in this ever increasingly dangerous world. The US and Canada are becoming so socially decayed with lieberal/demoncrat bullshit ..... it won't be long before folks will have had enough. In fact many countries being led by the lefty socialist WEF puppets are turning on thier lefty masters and ousting them at the polls. France will be next...... america too if they know what is good for them.
I look at countries like Venezuela where the people were led down the garden path by the same ideology as the lieberals/demoncrats and the big push to disarm that nation. As soon as all the licensed gun owners firearms were taken away...... In lightning speed the good lives of Venezuelans was no more. They now live under a authoritarian regime and can do nothing about it.
People who fear guns so much need to check themselves..... seriously.
In countries where civillians have no access to firearms , unregulated items like battery acid become a weapon.... lets not even talk about knives or bats LOL or how about pitch forks? How about chain saws?
How about simple BBQ propane tanks? Heck I could make one of those level a house to it's foundations and probably the house on each side with just a BBQ tank and a birthday candle....... but hey...... lets ban firearms LOL

It's so bloody ridiculous that people blame guns. Society is in decay, over run with depravity from the left. Mental health and addiction are being ignored. Violent crime is skyrocketting and some people are so scared of guns they want to take my "right" to defend my life or those innocents around me?
There's two kinds of people in this world...... Gun owners and Victims..... I'll never be a victim again thankyou very much.

Incidentally that home invasion of my grow op was on valentine's day in 2005. I shut down everything I was involved in the next day. I didn't grow another plant until I joined this site at the end of 2015. 10 years before I could get past my ptsd enough to have a grow.

and people here have the nerve to tell me I don't need a gun.... or think they should be able to decide how many rounds my magaine holds LOL
get over yourselves and your fear.
It's your right to not be a victim
It's your right to own a firearm
That firearm could save your life or the lives of those around you in the event that some nutjob goes off


Here where I live , 5 hours south of me down in vancouver....... a guy standing with his kid in a stroller outside a starbucks..... knifed and died right there on the spot because he asked a guy not to vape so close to him and his kid....... meanwhile a guy on a bus does the reach around and slits a guys throat.... no warning, nothing, just right out of the blue slits a guys throat...... our prime minister says it was a muslim extremist and is calling it a terrorist attack...... then just this morning another innocent kid is stabbed and left for dead on a bus......

I mean WTF..... a good guy with a gun could have stopped every single one of these incidents...... but no , lets not go down that path..... let's not report on or talk about the thousands of lives saved every day in north america by good upstanding civillians with firearms..... nope.... let's just ignore those facts.

people kill people..... stop scapegoating the firearm and gaslighting with all the "mass shooting" liberal/democrat propaganda speak. They never used to call it that you know. It was a recently made up phrase to use as the perfect gaslighting tool. LOL
So 4 people or more, injured or killed is now a "mass shooting" eh?
What did they used to call all the gang turf shootout victims that show up at hospitals or morgues in groups of 4 or more? Nothing..... that's what. They just said how many were injured or killed. Now, because so many people are gullible and lack the critical thinking necessary to see thru the bullshit...... 4 or more is a mass shooting. LOL
So ya if you swallowed thier koolaid..... ya, mass shootings are on the rise ..... but only since they coined the term.
Sad when people die but more folks die from mistakes by doctors and pharmacists than all the gun deaths combined. But no one is asking to limit or ban doctors and phamacists are they?
Sorry for your trauma.

Did someone here say you shouldn't be able to protect or defend yourself?

By the way, I believe that Canada adopted a version of the UK's law, prohibiting persons to defend themselves with a firearm even in the event of serious assault, rape, etc.

Sounds to me like you have more of a beef with the Canadian Gov. than with anything I've read here.

Shotguns are legal in Canada, too, and, according to stats/research and trained or informed opinions, if you're willing to use one in defense of yourself, despite the Canadian laws prohibiting such, they're the best choice for in-home defense.

It's my in-home go-to as a rule. 12-gauge Remington 870 old school with a shorter stock and refinished, custom barrel with illuminated front bead sight.

A class III dealer once said, "There's 2 sounds most thieves in America know the sound of; the slide closing the bolt on a pump-action shotgun, and the T-handle slamming forward on a CAR-15."

My 10mm S&W 1066 with a 1006 spurred hammer conversion only carries 9 rounds in the magazine, but extra mags are handy, and my favorite and most reliable firearm for most in-town carry is a plain old wheel gun; a 6-round cylinder in what has been my favorite revolver of all time (I've owned 3 of them now, though the current one is my wife's, technically). A Ruger Speed-Six .357 Magnum stainless with a 2-3/4" bbl and fixed illuminated sights, with speed-loaders in the extra pouch. Accurate as the day is long, considering it's a short-barreled revolver with fixed sights.

Wheel guns aren't prone to a mis-feed or misfire the way semi-autos are, so my wife and daughter have both been outfitted with revolvers rather than semi-autos. Simplicity helps in a crisis, too.

Proficiency beats the snot out of emptying a high-capacity cylinder or mag and not hitting anything, which is what the reports say most often occurs in home self-defense shoots, with folks who own a firearm for personal protection but don't maintain true proficiency. And even then, a good rush of adrenaline can screw up the best marksman's aim.

But I and some others do think that there's a point in time when the shootings are out of control, and something needs to be done to curb the carnage. Comparing other sources of death or mortality doesn't do away with the reality of firearms causing the number of deaths they do. 45 auto accidents don't make 25 firearms deaths that much more acceptable. Relativism as justification has its limits.
 
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entropical

Active member
Veteran
Here where I live , 5 hours south of me down in vancouver....... a guy standing with his kid in a stroller outside a starbucks..... knifed and died right there on the spot because he asked a guy not to vape so close to him and his kid....... meanwhile a guy on a bus does the reach around and slits a guys throat.... no warning, nothing, just right out of the blue slits a guys throat...... our prime minister says it was a muslim extremist and is calling it a terrorist attack...... then just this morning another innocent kid is stabbed and left for dead on a bus......

I mean WTF..... a good guy with a gun could have stopped every single one of these incidents...... but no , lets not go down that path..... let's not report on or talk about the thousands of lives saved every day in north america by good upstanding civillians with firearms..... nope.... let's just ignore those facts.
Thank you for sharing, and sorry to hear that happen to you.

Knife attacks can often happen like that, from out of the blue. It happened an old training partner. He was going home not too late in the evening from visiting a friend, waiting for a bus, when some unknown person walks up, pulls out a knife and attacks. Since he had been training for these situations, he managed to come out with minor damage only.

In a situation like that you don’t have time to pull out a gun as you are overwhelmed. And for a good guy with a gun witnessing such an attack happen nearby he would need to be trained using it to be effective. Your average gun owner who merely know how to fire the weapon on a gun range could easily freeze from the chock of seeing it happen. To use it effectively require continous training on these very scenarios.

So to be clear, I am not arguing against anyones right to self defence but a gun in such a situation can be rendered not only useless but also dangerous to the knife attack victim as it now risk getting shot to death as well by an untrained person, used to using his weapon only on a gun range but never in a combat scenario (or even a simulated one).

The problem is not one of guns but how society is governed imo.
 
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audiohi

Well-known member
Veteran
hhmlmj8b00ua1.jpg
 

zachrockbadenof

Well-known member
Veteran
Had both class III and conventional arms in .223/5.56 mm. There's a reason why the troops in SE Asia complained when McNamara's pipedream came into play and they took away most of their traditional .308 caliber M1A's, M14's, etc.

"We had to shoot them 3 times as many times!!"
that was early in that 'police action' - by maybe 66 or 67, them m-16 were pretty reliable....
Had both class III and conventional arms in .223/5.56 mm. There's a reason why the troops in SE Asia complained when McNamara's pipedream came into play and they took away most of their traditional .308 caliber M1A's, M14's, etc.

"We had to shoot them 3 times as many times!!"
i dunno about that in 1969 the m16 was a bad ass gun... a red hair under the ak47...
 

zachrockbadenof

Well-known member
Veteran

South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem says 1-year-old granddaughter ‘already has’ shotgun, rifle​


i would say something unpleasant about kristi.... but she is one cute girl...
 

armedoldhippy

Well-known member
Veteran
It's an outdated right given when none had a clue how deadly weapons would end up being. Its long been overdue to update the constitution. Things change that have a massive impact on society.. What was once good has become bad.
the guys that wrote it made it damn difficult to change deliberately because they knew there would be dimwits that wanted "reasonable" changes etc constantly. there is nowhere the level of support to do that yet. it may well come to that eventually, but what you want/think today is irrelevant. they gave the citizens the rights to have the same weapons that the military had, and rightfully so. "i ask , sir, what is the militia? it is the whole people. to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason "congress has no power to disarm the militia. their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American." - Tench Coxe
 

Hermanthegerman

Well-known member
Veteran
I think in my lifetime there is nothing changing with guns in the USA?

When did it start with the mass shootings, and I don´t mean killing indians and buffalos? End of the 70s?
 
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armedoldhippy

Well-known member
Veteran
What would you do to address the situation given the constraints of the Constitution?
you cannot prevent evil people from committing evil acts. it can't be done even inside of a prison, completely impossible in a (nominally) free society. all you can do is punish them afterwards, unfortunately.
 

RobFromTX

Well-known member
you suck at history, tex. in 1966, a man by name of Charles Whitman killed 14 and wounded 33 others in Austin Texas with a BOLT ACTION rifle. imagine that! those that do not know their history...
Sorry professor. I meant it was the DEADLIEST mass shooting by a lone gunman in the U.S. at the time. Hardly the point i was making
 

Hammerhead

Disabled Farmer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
it's NOT about a specific gun. no one in their right mind is stupid enough to think that gun-grabbers will stop with the gun du jour. grow up, for fucks sake...

Dude im fuking 70 dumbass. You are a nutter butter that cant handle other opinions. Onto ignore you go.


Its clear that many are clueless about what the prob is. Its why the only thing that will continue is the death of your kids or someone you know kids. Another useless attempt at an important topic. I should jsut close thise thread as well. Not many mature people here.
 

armedoldhippy

Well-known member
Veteran
how did that quote go? :unsure: something about "those that would trade freedom for safety deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin. ol' Ben knew a thing or two, and helped write the constitution that some of you think should be modified to YOUR taste...:pointlaug
 
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