How are you selecting your males?

[Dog Star]

Not true at all, not inconclusive, I would transform any male I wanted to use for breeding, that allows me to know the terpene and cannabinoid profiles and what they will likely be giving to any hybrids that use them.
I was never so good at smoking males, it means little to me, you could lab test them, but very few do. Now if I transform a male to female and smoke it I get a lot, and the transformed male to female can also be lab tested for the Cannabinoids and terpenes, to understand exactly what genes can be transferred to a hybrid using it.
The best way is to test progeny, use a male to make crosses with many select elite females and test the progeny in large numbers organoleptically and in a lab.
-SamS

If you was test Ancestral Skunks#1 then you could found that
a line is persistant in producing huge number of hermies...
dont know how somebody with your renome can put this kind of seeds on market!?


Am not beliver in what you say further,all i know that there is a folks
that love to trick other folks... to nick their money with false product and false claims..


Kind regards Sam

 

[Betterhaff]

@Dog Star, from my recollection those ancestral skunk seeds were from a large outdoor open pollination with the intention of preserving as many alleles as possible. There may be many traits that will express, hermies included unfortunately.

 

[chefsean]

Dj short has a big article with a section on male selection. I was just googling and reading whatever I could find and it came up pretty easily.

 

[Blind Joe Death]

If you know how a nice female looks like, finding a somewhat matching male is the way to go. A good start anyways. And this makes sense doesn't it.
You guys just have to stop thinking that males would be hugely different to female cannabis plants. They're not, imo.

I do not think this correlates at all...while we like to think that because one plant looks like another it will be the same or similar this is simply not the case, unless you were breeding for structure alone. But who does that? They could have varying degrees of terpines and cannabinoids. Testing these males in a lab will undoubtedly tell you the secrets it holds. Most people do not test males, however.
Female plants can hold much more cannabinoids than males, which may be attributed to having more surface area for the trichomes to reside. While the morphology may be the same this is where the two sexes differ.

 

[Spaventa]

Im growing regular seeds next run, two strains. Any males will be flowered in another location and evaluated for terpenes, thats it pretty much. As long as its not horrendous in any other regard like growth. structure and finishing, all i want to find is male that carries the incensey terpenes like Nevilles original Haze "A" male.
I suspect the trait is carried more reliably in males and may be why the church aromas seemed to disappear when feminised strains came about, or is that coincidence?

 

[Natural high]

Female plants can hold much more cannabinoids than males, which may be attributed to having more surface area for the trichomes to reside. While the morphology may be the same this is where the two sexes differ.

The main purpose of the trichomes and their resinous compounds are to protect the flowers and especially the seeds from animal, bird and insect attack. It makes logical sense that the female produces the most resin as the seeds are a potentially valuable source of food for many birds and animals.

 

[angelgoob]

true that. but with males being tested at 14% they ALSO use the resins to protect.

Not really flowers though, through a life cycle. Just little sacs, for a small amount of time to protect.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Not true at all, not inconclusive, I would transform any male I wanted to use for breeding, that allows me to know the terpene and cannabinoid profiles and what they will likely be giving to any hybrids that use them.
I was never so good at smoking males, it means little to me, you could lab test them, but very few do. Now if I transform a male to female and smoke it I get a lot, and the transformed male to female can also be lab tested for the Cannabinoids and terpenes, to understand exactly what genes can be transferred to a hybrid using it.
The best way is to test progeny, use a male to make crosses with many select elite females and test the progeny in large numbers organoleptically and in a lab.
-SamS

To come to this conclusion, wouldn't you have to first use both the "re-reversed male" and a "non-reversed version" of the same male to pollinate your choice females then grow out progeny of both fathers and compare them to see if this has any basis beyond being anecdotal?

Have you done so? That sounds like a huge undertaking.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Not sure what you mean by using a "re-reversed male". What is it? A reversed male is female, so you reverse the female to male, why do that?

I can use a male and test the progeny but if I use a transformed female to male, it is not the same plant as any other male I am comparing it to.

Do you mean use a male transformed to female to make seeds with the pollen of a female transformed to male? Vs using the same female untransformed with the same male untransformed to compare progeny of the different combos? That would compare the same genes but in one case they are the reverse parents, I have not done this.

As for huge undertakings I have done progeny testing with 10 males times 10 different females so 100 different combos, 200 plants of each so 20,000 plants total in the trial, all from seed all planted the same time in the ground in my greenhouse. Half the seeds were male, half were female. Just to determine the best combination of the 10 females and the best of the 10 males by their progeny. That was easy to do, just took time and space, and evaluations.

-SamS

To come to this conclusion, wouldn't you have to first use both the "re-reversed male" and a "non-reversed version" of the same male to pollinate your choice females then grow out progeny of both fathers and compare them to see if this has any basis beyond being anecdotal?

Have you done so? That sounds like a huge undertaking.

 

[JohnnyChicago]

If you was test Ancestral Skunks#1 then you could found that
a line is persistant in producing huge number of hermies...
dont know how somebody with your renome can put this kind of seeds on market!?

Am not beliver in what you say further,all i know that there is a folks
that love to trick other folks... to nick their money with false product and false claims..

You buy an unfinished product and then you complain that the product is not finished. You should blame Chimera and Breeders Retail for selling you untested seeds, not Sam.

I bought my Original Haze seeds for 18$ a pack and did not find a single banana out of 5 packs. I have stressed them heavily to make sure they have no herm tendencies, and nothing. 1.8$ a seed...

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Sorry if I didn't clearly express myself.

I meant:
If you reverse a male, grow it out and smoke test it and decide you like the terps and potency for example.

Wouldn't you have to reverse that again and use the "re-reversed" male as a pollen donor and compare that to the progeny you get from using the untreated male?

Or another way to phrase it:
What is to say that what you gathered from the reversed male, smoking it, will show in the progeny from the untreated male?
Couldn't it be that the reversed male in its female form exhibits traits that will not show in the untreated male, nor in its progeny?

Is it really the same plant anymore, once it has been reversed for smoking tests?

I was just thinking out loud here, considering if you might get different offspring from the untreated male than from the male you reversed if you were to reverse it back to its male form (if that was even possible).

Catch my drift?

 

[Natural high]

Sorry if I didn't clearly express myself.

I meant:
If you reverse a male, grow it out and smoke test it and decide you like the terps and potency for example.

Wouldn't you have to reverse that again and use the "re-reversed" male as a pollen donor and compare that to the progeny you get from using the untreated male?

Or another way to phrase it:
What is to say that what you gathered from the reversed male, smoking it, will show in the progeny from the untreated male?
Couldn't it be that the reversed male in its female form exhibits traits that will not show in the untreated male, nor in its progeny?

Is it really the same plant anymore, once it has been reversed for smoking tests?

I was just thinking out loud here, considering if you might get different offspring from the untreated male than from the male you reversed if you were to reverse it back to its male form (if that was even possible).

Catch my drift?

The only purpose of reversing the male is to see what it might bring to a cross as far as cannabinoids, terpenes and possibly bud structure. Typically you just reverse a cutting of the male, and if it passes your tests then you will use the original male for breeding (not the reversed male).

 

[angelgoob]

yes i do.

fuck that makes it harder.

maybe it's by weight less, but same cannabinoid profile?


natural. no he means just coz you reversed it does it make it a true rep of the female , or is still being male...with male traits like lower THC or something or another.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

The only purpose of reversing the male is to see what it might bring to a cross as far as cannabinoids, terpenes and possibly bud structure. Typically you just reverse a cutting of the male, and if it passes your tests then you will use the original male for breeding (not the reversed male).

See and that is what I mean.

If you want to arrive at the conclusion that the information gained from the reversed male through smoking is even LIKELY to be passed on to the progeny, wouldn't you first have to compare progeny of both the treated (reversed to female, then re-reversed to male) and the untreated (original, before reverse to female) male?

Until that has been done, couldn't it be that the reverse changes the male in a way that expresses characteristics only in its "female form" while the original male might still pass on completely different characteristics in the progeny?

That is all of course assuming that you a) can "re-reverse" a male (turn it female then back to male) and b) that such a "re-reversed" male would even drop any viable pollen.

 

[angelgoob]

thanks bigbadbiddy.

you're all helping me to select traits and modify if needed or DON'T MODIFY.

I'll be testing sacks and induced flowers to see. Maybe do a hash up.

 

[angelgoob]

but big. I thought you only reversed PARTS not the whole plant.

 

[Natural high]

See and that is what I mean.

If you want to arrive at the conclusion that the information gained from the reversed male through smoking is even LIKELY to be passed on to the progeny, wouldn't you first have to compare progeny of both the treated (reversed to female, then re-reversed to male) and the untreated (original, before reverse to female) male?

Until that has been done, couldn't it be that the reverse changes the male in a way that expresses characteristics only in its "female form" while the original male might still pass on completely different characteristics in the progeny?

That is all of course assuming that you a) can "re-reverse" a male (turn it female then back to male) and b) that such a "re-reversed" male would even drop any viable pollen.

We don't re-reverse the male at all and we don't use the reversed male to breed with. All it is used for is to give an idea what the original male might bring to the table if we choose to to breed with it. The method can be used to help decide which males we are going to use and which males we will eliminate. It's not fool-proof and despite looking good on the reverse it may still make a poor male for breeding. In the end it's just an educated guess.

Hope this makes more sense..

 

[GoatCheese]

I do not think this correlates at all...while we like to think that because one plant looks like another it will be the same or similar this is simply not the case, unless you were breeding for structure alone. But who does that? They could have varying degrees of terpines and cannabinoids. Testing these males in a lab will undoubtedly tell you the secrets it holds. Most people do not test males, however.
Female plants can hold much more cannabinoids than males, which may be attributed to having more surface area for the trichomes to reside. While the morphology may be the same this is where the two sexes differ.

"I do not think this correlates at all"
Well, i'm sure you agree that saying what i wrote "doesn't correlate at all" is a big over statement.
This is like saying people couldn't pick out BLD Afghan phenos out of F1 Afghan x NLD Sativa cross by looks alone.

I never did claimed you can find a perfect match, you just seem to assume i did. But if you read my post(s) again, i pretty much say you have to grow the seeds to fully understand what traits the male really brought in to the cross.
I even said this in the very same post you're commenting on.

Ofcourse with males it's a bit of a guessing game cause i don't smoke any plant material from them, so i have to grow their offspring to really KNOW what's in them..

But to claim it "doesn't correlate AT ALL" when i said you can find parent-leaning phenotypes by looking at leaf-traits and aromas from scratch-and-sniff, is nonsense.

Second..
I clearly wrote about getting to know the line (growing or smoking) and/or reading grow reports to get to know about aromas, about types of effect etc. so to claim i advised people to pick plants only by looks, you're making things up, buddy.


About smells and resin in veg..
I can assure you females and males in veg have equal amount of smell when you scratch-and-sniff them, 100%. If you claim females have stronger smell, then you don't know whatta F you're talking about.

Also, if you look vegging plants, males and females, thru a 30x loop, you will find out that they have equal amount of globular resin glands on their stems and leaves. Females do not have more of these than males.

Notice i wrote about plants in veg, not about blooming plants. And i assure you vegging females and males have same surface area for globular resin glands (stems and leaves); amount of resin glands is equal and so is the amount of smell. Use a 30x loop or take a macro photo and see for yourself..
.. and have a sniff.


Maybe next time you should try to understand what you're actually reading before you start lecturing people. But most of us are guilty of that sometimes.

 

[Blind Joe Death]

Well, i'm sure you agree that saying what i wrote "doesn't correlate at all" is a big over statement.
This is like saying people couldn't pick out BLD Afghan phenos out of F1 Afghan x NLD Sativa cross by looks alone.

While you may be able to pick out many plants that look like BLD genotypes not all of these will carry the affects you are after...What I was saying was that you wouldn't know from looks alone.

But to claim it "doesn't correlate AT ALL" when i said you can find parent-leaning phenotypes by looking at leaf-traits and aromas from scratch-and-sniff, is nonsense.

Second..
I clearly wrote about getting to know the line (growing or smoking) and/or reading grow reports to get to know about aromas, about types of effect etc. so to claim i advised people to pick plants only by looks, you're making things up, buddy.


About smells and resin in veg..
I can assure you females and males in veg have equal amount of smell when you scratch-and-sniff them, 100%. If you claim females have stronger smell, then you don't know whatta F you're talking about.

Never did I say that males wouldn't smell as much as females...only that they don't carry as much trichomes.

Also, if you look vegging plants, males and females, thru a 30x loop, you will find out that they have equal amount of globular resin glands on their stems and leaves. Females do not have more of these than males.

Notice i wrote about plants in veg, not about blooming plants. And i assure you vegging females and males have same surface area for globular resin glands (stems and leaves); amount of resin glands is equal and so is the amount of smell. Use a 30x loop or take a macro photo and see for yourself..
.. and have a sniff.

I did miss this about vegetative plants...sorry for that.

Flowering females would have more surface area because of the flowers. Flowers plus leaf amd stem equals more surface area

Maybe next time you should try to understand what you're actually reading before you start lecturing people. But most of us are guilty of that sometimes.

I understand just fine, but thanks. ��

 

[GoatCheese]

While you may be able to pick out many plants that look like BLD genotypes not all of these will carry the affects you are after...What I was saying was that you wouldn't know from looks alone.

yea..
Well, of course there are RECESSIVE traits in the parents, but this is so widely talked about info on modern cannabis forums, i didn't think i have to repeat the term "recessive traits" in every post. Every plant is an individual when it comes to terps, stature and effect etc, but how balanced the seed line is depends on the parents. Very basic and old info, but now it's written down again. Rewind and repeat.

Thou i'm not very experienced grower of haze hybrids, i have smoked many and not i'm not a huge fan nowaday. If you read grow and smoke reports, people tend to be saying the shorter more BLD type NL5 leaning phenos of Nevil's Haze are more stoney. Think about that. So i really think you can get an idea of the effect from grow /smoke reports if you're seasoned smoker and have smoked/grown many different strains. As i said all along.

And some people write really great smoke reports, from which you can get a good idea of the effect.

I'm very picky about the effect because of my med condition, but i'm also sort of passionate weed and traditional hash smoker. I'd smoke every day, all day long if i didn't have to go to work, forget about it.

If you know what kind of an effect the Haze plants Nevil used bring to some hybrid, you can have some kind of an idea how his other Haze hybrids might be like, even if you haven't grown some of them. They're not the same but when you know there's Haze in them, you have an idea what it might bring to the pot.

I prolly notice the Haze effect pretty well cause i'm not a huge fan of most phenos. Some are very nice.
..i'm not a big fan of NL5 either. Boring, mongy effect for me.

Peace.