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help my droop!!!!

A

'anna jones

Member
Are you running 18 or 24? It sounds like your going with 18 but if your 24 try backing down to 18. Some girls like the down time more than others. I say your OK...drooping with only 2 hours 'till lights off to go is ok by me. The lazy sacks' are just gettin' ready for nappy time that's all.


Also I think you should be careful with the 'up the feeding' deal. Don't get carried away and drown them just because someone suggested you might increase your feeding. Maybe the need it and maybe not. Only you know what your plants need since your there and were not. Make sure the mix is correct and don't jack the PH up to high. Just start low as usual and let it drift...............

By the way your plants look pretty good despite the droop..real green and shiny so don't panic and start messin around with everything. Just make sure you don't OVERFEED THEM..
 
H

hyper28

New member
thanks anna
they r on 18 and i dropped ec back down from 1.2-1.3 back down to .9-1.0
could it be that my fans are messed up not really sure how to set them at the moment i have ossilating running while lights are on and same with intake and out take kicks on when room gets 28deg so by time it takes to really get the air out it has reached 30deg and then it starts to decline.just a thought i guess probly fine
cheers again
 
C

Citizen024

Member
I am getting some droop too, similar indeed. I think light height has a lot to do with mine, as when I pulled a couple out and had em away from the light they didn't droop, though they were same room, same food. I raised em up, and they droop less. Gonna raise mine more till they stay up. Just a thought. Light stress is easy to do and overlook (especially with 1kw's).
 
H

hyper28

New member
never thought of that,i am using 4x600hps room is 3mx1.8m and i have been keeping lights sround 500mm away,so not sure if it is the lights but will try it anyway,
i am still swaying towards overwatering maybe even underwatering as this is pretty new to me,so i kinda am dumbfounded when it comes to saying is it over or under watering.
here is another thing how much roots should be going into bottom pot by now,as roots are hanging bout 2 inches into second potbut also roots have gone pretty berzerk coming to top of pot andwhen you try to stick finger in coco to see how damp it is ,it is almost impossible as roots are every were, pots are 350mm round 15liters i am 90 % sure.
 
C

Citizen024

Member
Coco is difficult to over water. Yes, it can get over saturated and compressed. Not going to say it's not the cause, but doubt that is causing it. The droop sets in only towards the end of the cyle right? If it was overwatering (and since your water rate is the same through out) it would be overwatered all the way through the cycle. You also would have been overwatering for quite sometime now and would have general lack of vigor. I would imagine though that you would only really need to water once every 4-6 hours, not every three. The roots going across the top is classic for coco, and generally means your doing good. Probably not any disease either.

I am betting light stress still. Are you tops bright green/yellowy while the bottoms are most dark just below the top canopy level? if so, then almost definately light. No matter what your temps are, get em too close and they won't like it.

And coco with no run off is BAD. Dry coco is BAD. Not using cal-mag or magical is BAD. It needs watering at least once a day. Resercing is tougher then other hydro mediums (K releases and needs to be introduced in lower doses; mag and cal get sucked out quickly). Target ph 5.8, drift it to 6.2-6.5. Do not run a res longer then 7 days, and it may need a cal mag (30-50 ppm) boost after several days, in addition to water top offs. If run to wasting, your looking at about a 30% reduction in nutri levels in comparison to hydro. Target run off for waste in run to waste system should be about 15-30%. Flush regularly- hand water a good drenching once or twice a week. Your watering system delivers a consistancy no human can achieve, hand watering gives a thoroughness no watering system can achieve. It's not soil, and its not rockwool/rocks- suggest reading up in the coco forum.
 
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C

Citizen024

Member
Your in like a 4-5 gal pot? Straight coco can compress when in larger then 2 gal pots. The taller, the more it will compress down at the bottom. For larger containers add 30-40% perlite to lighten/loosen/drain it up and allow more aeration. Pack it light in your containers. Compressed coco is hard for plants to root well into. Scope out your run off, whats the ec and ph? Might get a clue there is your building up or ph'd out.

Your water amounts sound good, your nutri's and environment sound good to me to.


Read coco forum posts.
 
H

hyper28

New member
this might sound real stoopid but wot is cal-mag never hesrd of it and i dont no any1 that uses it,maybe there just as stoopid as me.lol
 
C

Citizen024

Member
Cal-Mag is a calcium magnesium iron supplement from Botanicare. There is an identical product from Technaflora called MagiCal. Much better quality, doesn't percipitate out as Cal-Mag does.

Coco eats up mag and cal (micro nutrients- the most used of the micros). Go read up on it in coco forums. You need to be sure your delivering enough or you'll go deficient. Most hydro formula's won't cover it. HOWEVER you are running Canna, and if your using Coco's A/B you could be covered as it is a coco formular. Canna is good good shit yo! Run to waste it to be sure your getting good nutri presence and availability. Recircing coco requires a good amount of knowledge of nutrients to do it well.
 
W

Weedman Herb

Citizen024 said:
Cal-Mag is a calcium magnesium iron supplement from Botanicare. There is an identical product from Technaflora called MagiCal. Much better quality, doesn't percipitate out as Cal-Mag does.
Click to expand...
Do you have anything to back this up? If they are identical then they should perform the same ... a claim of MagiCal being of Much Better quality becomes moot ... as you've already contradicted yourself ... perhaps you meant Similar and that you Prefer it to CalMag??? Without at least a side by side grow show or some 3rd party Analysis comparing the 2 I'm going to Have to call BS on this ... and ... let me say ... before you send me a link to their site or Info provided by them ... No, Technafloras word isn't good enough on this ...
 
C

Citizen024

Member
Weedman Herb said:
Do you have anything to back this up? If they are identical then they should perform the same ... a claim of MagiCal being of Much Better quality becomes moot ... as you've already contradicted yourself ... perhaps you meant Similar and that you Prefer it to CalMag??? Without at least a side by side grow show or some 3rd party Analysis comparing the 2 I'm going to Have to call BS on this ... and ... let me say ... before you send me a link to their site or Info provided by them ... No, Technafloras word isn't good enough on this ...
Click to expand...


Thanks for calling it out to attention. I will support my views like so:

Calcium is a very unstable element. That is why we use multi part hydro solutions. The calcium wants to bond with other elements. Ask anyone at any hydro spot, they will confirm this. GH 3 part it's in the Micro only. House and Garden, Canna- they all break it into one of the parts. Pure Blend, Pura Vida, they all use Cal- Mag or MagiCal respectively to provide it in a stable form.

I met the reps from both companies. I have met a LOT of reps from working at a shop in the past, and though I don't work behind a counter anymore sells stuff I know the good ones from the bullshitters. Your right, never take their word about anything, it is their job to sell their shit. That said, this guy definately knew his shit and wasn't just pushing his products. He was dropping lots of knowledge at a BBQ at the local shop. Same with Botanicares reps too. The Technaflora guy didn't even skip a beat and opened a bottle of Magical and poured it out. Nice and clear, no percipitation. Now then put it to the test and open a bottle of Cal-Mag and tell me what you see. Not so clear, murky and generally when it comes to you or while it sits around for a month or two, you start to see shiny dust speckles in it. Guess what that is. It's calcium percipitating out. Once it forms solids like that, its no longer available to the plant. It has bonded to some element. Calcium is +2 charge, it really wants to bond.

The Botanicare rep said that cal-mag's percip is true, but "minimal". What the hell does that mean? "Use it up- don't let it sit". Ummm . .. yeah. . but. . what about the fact I have bought it already with percip in it. What about the lack of consistency in the product (my next point- read down)? I only have so much control: because it sits in a warehouse at Botanicare, then sits at Hydrofarm or Garden Supply, and then sits at the shop. . then sits when i get it. And goes through all kinds of temp changes too along the way. I don't think that is a satisfactory answer. I am not for buying products that can't stay stable for a decent period of time.

I have switched brands, and really like the MagiCal. My results are stellar as ever. Cal- Mag is also NOTORIOUS for not being consistent. One bottle will be more concentrated then another, and is usually murky to a varying degree. Thankfully, I measure by TDS to keep it legit, not ml/g. I aim for 120-150ppm for my needs. If the product fluctuates and your using the same amount everytime (ml/g) then you could get fucked by their lack of consistency. Not too mention the labled 5-10ml a gallon of Cal-Mag is TOO much generally speaking. I use about 2-3ml. I for one prefer quality controlled products; really dislike seeing a different product every time I buy a bottle. I am not the only one who has noticed this. Ask at your local hydro store about the inconsistancy, everyone in my area seems to be aware of it.

In addition Technaflora uses calcium nitrate and calcium citrate. Cal-Mag is only nitrate. This is a definate formulation difference. This improves overall stability they claim. Key note: THEY claim.

But I will say this, I have had a bottle of Magical around right next to a bottle of cal-mag. Cal Mag has formed percip, my Magical has not.

Just cause in the end the salts are the same (well, actually even salts come in different grades of purity even if they all come from the same place in the end) DOES NOT mean that they are all handled and formulated equally.

I used to believe one chem was as good as another, and to a degree it's true, however formulation has a lot to with stability, ph, consistancy and availability. Yes, in the end, the plant only cares what salt is there and how much, I know that.

Some companies put a lot more effort then others to keep everything the same every time you purchase their products. It can even vary from product to product in the same company line. Some don't do such a great job. I can't vouch for everything about Tanchaflora, and can't be sure thier quality control is any better. In my EXPERIENCE and OBSERVATION it has been quite consistanct batch to batch- and I am going through a lot of it.

Not too mention Botanicare's (and GH, and Advanced. . and pretty much every big company other then Canna, House/Garden) put out recipe sheets that are WAY too high on usage. If you were to follow it you would have stressed out plants at best, dried up dead twigs at worst. GH's and Advanced will kill your shit right quick if you follow their guidelines.

Technaflora's rep suggests a low base line of nutrients, then increasing by 10% every couple days till you find the right tolerance for your plants. Once you see the slightest burn back in down 10-20% and thats your level and carry it all the way through at that level till flush time. I like this thinking better then the "one size fits all" approach to nutrients, since all of our gardens plants and conditions are different.

Don't get me wrong, I think Botanicare is a GREAT comapny. I have used their products since way way back in the day when they called themselves American Agritech, and the entire Pure Blend line is STELLAR!!! They got it down on a lot of fronts, and I am happy to support them. Their products do get pricey once you look at dilution rates, but they make it all very user friendly and cover all the bases well.

Magical does seem to perform at least as well, and definately outshines Cal-Mag's stability in my experience and OPINION. Pura Vida is a also THE SHIT if you know how to use it properly (and there is the trick). Cheap too.

Maybe this should be treaded to a nutrient forum for open discussion, by no mean do I claim to know it all.

Thanks for bringing it up for clarity, appreciate your 2 cents as well.

Thank god I type fast as shit, cause that was long winded.
 
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Weedman Herb

I appreciate your attempt at enlightening me ... but ... there's a huge difference in what you're saying about Bigger Companies Products compared to Technafloras and what I have experienced ... In fact I found the opposite ... for the most part ... Here's how it breaks down ... Advanced and Technafloras (the Orig. BC Recipe for Success + additional ammendments) Nute Lines Cost More to run, needed more tweeking and performed the absolute worst in my garden ... they won't get another shot ... So no side by side grows ? You still haven't SHOWN me anything to support your findings ... If you can give me Anything that supports what you're saying I might give MagiCal a try. It really sounds like you're trying to sell us on Something ...
 
C

Citizen024

Member
Hahaha, I agree with you totally on bigger companies. I am a bitch ass when it comes to nutrients, cost, effectiveness and what not myself, totally respect where your coming from. I don't think I have done more then open a discussion through which we can all be better at what we do. None of this is personal or meant to be dominating in any way. It means nothing to me to be "right". Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not. Everyone is sometimes, and not at other. I don't pretend to have all the answers, and can only site available sources and my first hand observations. Key word: mine. Feel free to look and experiment as I have for yourself. I do a lot of that, like you my friend, I don't take things at face value. I am show me kind of guy.

I am just sharing what I have seen. Take in information from others, but in the end turn to your own wisdom for council.

I don't think even if I had side by side photos from a crop that it would fair to attribute any difference just to Magical vs. Cal-Mag. Mostly they work and all is well or they don't, and you get a deficiency (which I would treat by upping the dose). Both are effective, no question there. We are discussing which might be superior.

Total agreement with you Weedman. The more high end nutrients need to be dialed in; and will fuck you up if you use them wrong. Don't trust recipes. That said, if you use them right, most will perform well- given all other things being up to par and your running the right nutri in the proper system to be using it in. It is also personal choice about how simple you like it to be, what results your interested in achieving, and what methods your choosing. Knowledge of chem and plants is KEY. Some nutrients are like driving a automatic Honda Civic (easy, good solid performance, great to learn to drive on), and others like driving a manual Ferrari (touchy, powerful, capable of high speed and performance, but just as capable of smashing you into pieces) Some are not the thing you want to be learning on.

House and Garden, Canna, Botanicare are strong workers with proven results, and conveniency. You will pay for convenience every time, and they are more limited in application to make them user friendlier.

I am more towards the organic end, and Pura Vida is unique in it's availability and the fact it can run in drip lines clean. I am seeing Pura Vida perform (organically) as well if not better then Pure Blend Pro, H & G, Canna- which are high end lines which require numerous additives to work properly. Basically they are synth at heart with organic and synth boosters around a synth chem backbone. They all work very well, and I LOVE Pure Blend Pro personally. I know Magical is not organic. It is however, the only non organic thing in my garden. The day there is a easy consistant organic cal mag I am there!!! Yes i could do it with Calplex, epsom- but at my garden size it isn't practical. Still working on the exact nutrient dial in, there are several options for me.

For the record: I use run to waste coco-perlite handwater/drip system. Outside of coco or soil, and run to waste I wouldn't use this formulation. Recircing organics leads to trouble one way or another. Pura Vida and Pure Blend Pro (not 100% organic) are some of the only drip friendly things out there:

Here goes:
My veg is CHEM, yes, it is. .it's just so much easier to do coco in ebb and flow trays: 3 Part GH, Vermi-T, EJ Catalyst, and occassional Cannazyme; once a week foliar of Rhizotonic. Not worth setting up a complicated organic run to waste for vegging. Fuck it, keep it simple and user friendly. I feel I could substitute H & G, Canna or Pure Pro Grow (even drop most the additives) and it would all be about the same in the end. GH just offers me a lot more control/flex then any of those A/B two part formulas.

Transplant with 8ml/gal Thrive Alive and GH three part for 3 days (300ppm Mirco, 300ppm Bloom, 100ppm Grow). Vermi-T 50ml/gal, Cannazyme 6ml/gal.
RO Water.
Foliar Canna Rhizotoninc and add Zone/Penetrator if I am fighting any PM.

Then for Flowering I go almost completely organic:

50% RO- 50% ~220ppm tap. Starts at 120ppm.

Magical (100-150 ppm, shoot for 120ppm. Start cutting it out around week 5-6, out completely by week 7.)

Pura Vida Grow/Bloom (600-900ppm for MY system. Caution with this stuff.
It might get up to 1100 at the height of heavy bloom, depends) at different ratios. 50-50% at first, with more towards Bloom after week 3-4, 75-100% Bloom for the week 5-6.

Sweet (7ml/gal- 110ppm).
Sweet/Sugar Daddy adds mag so I am cool once I start to cut out Magical/Cal-Mag around week 6. I am switching to Sugar Daddy to see how it does, and it doesn't have the berry flavored added to it that Sweet does.

EJ Catalyst (2-5ml through out the cycle). I am old school and I just like this stuff, it's super cheap and I have a fetish for using it in everything. It helps me balance ph often (acidic that will rise over time)- especially is I use 100% tap. I will do this towards the last couple weeks to keep from running so much RO. Gotta be water conscious.

Foliar Nitrozyme a couple times through the cycle. Vermi-T week 2, and 4. Flush with Flora Clear or whatever that new GH flushing stuff is (much more concentrated and cheaper then Clearex- check it out, $20 a gal and only use a 5ml/gal instead of an oz.- works just as good IMO) once at week 3 and 6.

Notice my usage rates are also much lower then Technaflora bottles say.

For the record: as I said, different products from the same company can be great, while others suck. I have NEVER used the Recipe For Success. Doesn't resonate with me. I have been moving away from any chem nutrients in general in flowering- but not using them ever at some part of the grow is really really difficult in hydro. Organic, or organic boosted chems have always done better for me then just chems when it comes to flowering. Been there done that and did great years ago- then added stable organic additives to help it along (hence my love for EJ Catalyst and Pure Blend Orginal). Then went to PB Pro when it first came out. Rocket sauce for sure. Now I am just raging it with Pura Vida as my backbone and still using many of my favorite additiives. No need for a bloom booster though. H&G, Canna, PB and many more definately need one though. I could just as easily switch to one of them as the backbone instead of the PV, but the build of the entire system is specifically set up to able to run organic.

It's fairly easy with little room for error the way I am using it- not always the case when it comes to organic systems. Stable, high output, and organic are words that don't often go in the same sentence. I want that organic quality of soil with hydro growth/yield. It is possible, but it has taken me years of tinkering to perfect the techniques and requires attention to detail. It took a lot of working with organics, soil, chems, various hydro mediums and methods; I could do almost anything but this is the system i choose. The only other method that interests me is Bio-Buckets- that is some dope shit, hands down and almost no one is doing it. The way I do things is not for everyone, I get that.

It fucken works really really well, superior quality and growth rates. Blows soil away in yeild/speed, and identical in quality. Very clean in the end.

I talked way too much. Thanks for listening to my bullcrap- I know no one asked. Magical is just a small cog in my wheel. I am going to quote this all elsewhere for more review. The more you folks ask, the better you and I get at this.

I bet you and I have more in common then not Weedman, we both ask to see the proof and don't believe the hype. Hope we have both gained in the end.
 
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hyper28

New member
ok this little prob of mine seemed to take a whole new direction lol
my ph is 6.0 and ec 1.8 checked the run off and ph 6.1 and ec 1.2,what does this mean in grow world cause to me it says salts are going to slowly build but i will be finished by then and plants are taking food,is this right or am i wrong.
by the way i have just gone back to run to waste as i had to wait until my tight ass boss finally gave me a check i have been waiting a month for,so now i could buy more nutes to connect run to waste again.
do you think when i went back to reciculating it might of upset the girls?
 
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