Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps

[Dave at Haskel]

Great news Dave! Say had a question about the Haskle line of pumps in general. If I was just trying to transfer vapor gas from large pressure vessels through a series of filters, to fill up smaller pressure vessels, such as LP5 tanks, would the 59025 be the best choice? And just to I understand correct, since it has a 4:1 ratio, if I give it 100psi inlet air pressure, it should give me 400psi outlet pressure?

The EXT420, the EXT420-2-87992 and the 59025 are all virtually the same pump body (I say virtually because the fittings on the 59025 are plated steel, while they are stainless on the EXT pumps), the difference being the way they are plumbed. The 59025 is a two stage pump, meaning the gas is boosted 2 times while it is in the pump, the EXT420 is a single stage pump, so the gas is boosted only once, while the EXT420-2-87992 gives you both, depending on the valve positioning.

The maximum output pressure of either of the pumps is calculated by multiplying the drive air pressure by 4 and adding the inlet gas pressure to that number. So, if you had drive air pressure of 90 psig and your inlet gas pressure was 50 psig, the maximum output pressure is (4 x 90) + 50 = 410 psig.

Regarding the flow rate, that depends on the stroke rate of the pump. The displacement of the 59025 is 10 cu inches per stroke, while it is 20 cu inches per stroke on the EXT420 (the EXT420-2-87992 will be the same, based on how it is configured at that moment). So, if the EXT420 is running at 60 cycles per minute, it will pump 1,200 cubic inches of gas per minute. How much gas (in weight) you actually pump in that minute is going to depend on the inlet gas pressure going into the pump (the higher the inlet gas pressure, the more molecules of gas will be pumped per stroke). The stroke rate of the pump is going to be determined by how much (CFM) drive air you give the pump, the more air you give it, the faster it will cycle. Note: If you are operating near the maximum output pressure described above, that will cause the pump to cycle slower.

Regarding your question about transferring from one tank to another, if you aren't looking for a large pressure increase, the single stage version will give you much higher flow rates that the 2-stage version.

I hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions.

Dave

 

[gholladay]

very nice info! Thanks.

What is the best size hose to use for the compressed air going to the haskel?

GH

 

[Dave at Haskel]

What is the best size hose to use for the compressed air going to the haskel?

GH

It depends on how far the run is between the compressor and the pump. If you are just a few feet away (~<20-25 feet), you should be fine with 3/8" hose, if you are much farther, you should use larger hose, or more ideally, hard plumb with 1/2" or larger pipe, with a short section of hose between the pipe and the pump. (It's good to have a foot or two of hose between the pump and the piping so vibration isn't transmitted into the piping). Never use 1/4" tubing.

If the plumbing is too small, it will reduce the flow and pressure of the compressed air getting to the pump, reducing both the speed of the pump and its outlet pressure capability.

To see if you are losing too much pressure in the line, if you have a pressure gauge on both ends of the hose (or pipe), while the pump is cycling, the gauges should both give similar pressures. If the gauge closest to the pump drops substantially (compared to the pressure at the compressor) during operation, that is a strong indication that the hose or pipe diameter is too small.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Dave

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks Dave, for your input and continuing to both listen and be a good sport! Good job!

I see that you picked up on the single/dual stage dichotomy, and ya'll came up with a solution!

Do I infer that we should use 60 strokes per minute for calculating upper end performance?

60 strokes X 10 cubic inches to achieve free air volume?

Boyles Law to calculate cfm at delivery pressure? Volume is inversely proportional to pressure above absolute.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryfaqs/f/What-Is-The-Formula-For-Boyles-Law.htm

 

[Gray Wolf]

It depends on how far the run is between the compressor and the pump. If you are just a few feet away (~<20-25 feet), you should be fine with 3/8" hose, if you are much farther, you should use larger hose, or more ideally, hard plumb with 1/2" or larger pipe, with a short section of hose between the pipe and the pump. (It's good to have a foot or two of hose between the pump and the piping so vibration isn't transmitted into the piping). Never use 1/4" tubing.

If the plumbing is too small, it will reduce the flow and pressure of the compressed air getting to the pump, reducing both the speed of the pump and its outlet pressure capability.

To see if you are losing too much pressure in the line, if you have a pressure gauge on both ends of the hose (or pipe), while the pump is cycling, the gauges should both give similar pressures. If the gauge closest to the pump drops substantially (compared to the pressure at the compressor) during operation, that is a strong indication that the hose or pipe diameter is too small.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Dave

Excellent point! Travel distance and turns add to the equivalent head pressure of a system, and the slower the fluid moves, the lower the resistance to flow.

We routinely use 1/2" for all of our pump hoses, even though the Haskel is only plumbed for 3/8", because of those losses.

We simply use a by close 3/8" nipple and a 3/8 X 1/2" bushing to move from 3/8" to 1/2" in a single stroke!

Consider the face area of the different diameter hoses, and that to move a different volume of gas through that face area, requires that it move at a specific speed. The only way to increase volume of gas delivered through a fixed orifice, is to increase the delivery velocity.

10 cfm through a 3/8" face area is slower than through a 1/2" face area.

Consider that the faster it moves, the more resistance to flow in the form of back pressure.

Consider that when it turns a corner or encounters resistance to flow, resistance is increased.

Consider that to overcome the back pressure increase of a 10%, requires the square of that increase in horsepower, or 10% X 10 =100%.

Holy shit Batman, why would we evah compromise on line size?

Hee, hee, hee, because of diminishing returns mah leedle cheekle dee! At some point it just becomes simply more volume to control!

 

[gholladay]

Thanks for the input guys! 1/2" hard pipe w/ a 1/2" hose run out it is!

GH

 

[Dave at Haskel]

Thanks Dave, for your input and continuing to both listen and be a good sport! Good job!

I see that you picked up on the single/dual stage dichotomy, and ya'll came up with a solution!

Do I infer that we should use 60 strokes per minute for calculating upper end performance?

60 strokes X 10 cubic inches to achieve free air volume?

Boyles Law to calculate cfm at delivery pressure? Volume is inversely proportional to pressure above absolute.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryfaqs/f/What-Is-The-Formula-For-Boyles-Law.htm

Gray Wolf: I think that 60 cycles per minute (CPM) is a good cycle rate to shoot for. You can run faster if you give it enough air, but as the unit runs faster, more heat is created and the pump seals wear faster, that is, you get more wear per stroke at the higher speeds than at the lower speeds.

On the two-stage version the displacement is 10 cubic inches per minute, that is the displacement of first stage is 10 cubic inches. If we were pumping water (i'm using water because it isn't compressible) and the pump was running at 60 CPM, the pump would move 60*10 = 600 cubic inches per minute.

Now, because gases are compressible, the calculations aren't so simple. The actual amount of gas that is pumped per stroke will depend in the pressure on the suction or supply line. Here are a few definitions:

Standard Cubic Foot of Gas - The of gas that occupies 1 cubic foot at sea level under normal temperature and pressure (29.92" Hg and 68 deg F).

Atmospheres of pressure - Calculated by (psig + 14.7)/14.7

If the gas is coming into the booster at 50 psig, it will be under 4.4 atmospheres of pressure. If we multiply the actual displacement by the atmospheres that will tell us how much gas is drawn in on each stroke. In this case 4.4 atm * 10 cu inches = 44 standard cubic inches or .0255 standard cubic feet per stroke. If we multiply that by 60, we are moving 1.528 Standard Cubic Feet per minute.

I show the density of butane as .1554 lb/cubic foot at 68 deg and 1 atmosphere of pressure. If we multiply the .1544 x 1.528 we see we are moving .24 lb of gas per minute. Now, the booster doesn't have 100 % efficiency so we won't get quite that flow rate, the smaller the pressure increase is, the better the efficiency will be.

I hope I answered your questions. You got real technical on the hose/pipe issue, so I thought I'd get technical here!

Let me know if you have more questions.

Dave

 

[JColtrane]

I am buying a Haskle, it's that simple

 

[A6 Grower]

Sorry if its somewhere in this thread but i was talking to someone who is running a haskel using 2 $2-3k normal air compressors instead of the big 380v screw compressor. Any info or suggestions for what type air compressors work well besides the BFC(big f-in compressor)???

 

[snake11]

Sorry if its somewhere in this thread but i was talking to someone who is running a haskel using 2 $2-3k normal air compressors instead of the big 380v screw compressor. Any info or suggestions for what type air compressors work well besides the BFC(big f-in compressor)???

Any air compressor or combination of compressors should work as long as the scfm requirements are met. Most industrial applications use rotary screw compressors as they are more efficient and reliable for continuous use.

 

[Dave at Haskel]

Any air compressor or combination of compressors should work as long as the scfm requirements are met. Most industrial applications use rotary screw compressors as they are more efficient and reliable for continuous use.

That's correct, the Haskel pumps don't care what type of compressor creates the compressed air. In the case of the EXT420 (and the new EXT420-2) the pump can consume about 25 CFM at around 100 psig. There are 7-1/2HP single phase compressors out there that run on 240 VAC that can produce the necessary air. I know Ingersoll Rand makes one.

Dave

 

[Gray Wolf]

That's correct, the Haskel pumps don't care what type of compressor creates the compressed air. In the case of the EXT420 (and the new EXT420-2) the pump can consume about 25 CFM at around 100 psig. There are 7-1/2HP single phase compressors out there that run on 240 VAC that can produce the necessary air. I know Ingersoll Rand makes one.

Dave

So does Eaton.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eaton-Compr...996?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541b475acc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eaton-Indus...538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c98197262

 

[Gray Wolf]

Gray Wolf: I think that 60 cycles per minute (CPM) is a good cycle rate to shoot for. You can run faster if you give it enough air, but as the unit runs faster, more heat is created and the pump seals wear faster, that is, you get more wear per stroke at the higher speeds than at the lower speeds.

On the two-stage version the displacement is 10 cubic inches per minute, that is the displacement of first stage is 10 cubic inches. If we were pumping water (i'm using water because it isn't compressible) and the pump was running at 60 CPM, the pump would move 60*10 = 600 cubic inches per minute.

Now, because gases are compressible, the calculations aren't so simple. The actual amount of gas that is pumped per stroke will depend in the pressure on the suction or supply line. Here are a few definitions:

Standard Cubic Foot of Gas - The of gas that occupies 1 cubic foot at sea level under normal temperature and pressure (29.92" Hg and 68 deg F).

Atmospheres of pressure - Calculated by (psig + 14.7)/14.7

If the gas is coming into the booster at 50 psig, it will be under 4.4 atmospheres of pressure. If we multiply the actual displacement by the atmospheres that will tell us how much gas is drawn in on each stroke. In this case 4.4 atm * 10 cu inches = 44 standard cubic inches or .0255 standard cubic feet per stroke. If we multiply that by 60, we are moving 1.528 Standard Cubic Feet per minute.

I show the density of butane as .1554 lb/cubic foot at 68 deg and 1 atmosphere of pressure. If we multiply the .1544 x 1.528 we see we are moving .24 lb of gas per minute. Now, the booster doesn't have 100 % efficiency so we won't get quite that flow rate, the smaller the pressure increase is, the better the efficiency will be.

I hope I answered your questions. You got real technical on the hose/pipe issue, so I thought I'd get technical here!

Let me know if you have more questions.

Dave

Thanks Dave! I'll use 60 cpm for my upper end calculations hence forth.

The other issue is how the delivery pressure affects the capacity.

If the receiving tank pressure is 50 psi, it has to be compressed as well.

 

[Nedhead]

Pounds/minutes what's the average rate of recovery?
Is there not a 3 phase model available?

 

[ed's]

new around here and looking for the best possible pump.

question for dave. Where and how does one go about ordering the new pump? and has the price been disclosed yet?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dave at Haskel]

new around here and looking for the best possible pump.

question for dave. Where and how does one go about ordering the new pump? and has the price been disclosed yet?

Thanks in advance!

Contact a local Haskel distributor. The distributors are listed on the Haskel website - www.haskel.com

Dave

 

[JColtrane]

Well I guess I'm the owner of a 59025 .... go team Haskle

 

[Hydrosun]

Well I guess I'm the owner of a 59025 .... go team Haskle

What are the team colors??? I'll get over being green with envy.

 

[waywardwolf]

Well I guess I'm the owner of a 59025 .... go team Haskle

Nice choice! Another tool in your arsenal. You would think that damn thing would come with a tee shirt wouldn't ya...

 

[JColtrane]

Nice choice! Another tool in your arsenal. You would think that damn thing would come with a tee shirt wouldn't ya...

Actually I was gonna ask Dave for one