H3ad goes Coco

[jonezin]

I have a question for you guys. Since H3ad hasn't been on here for a while hopefully someone else can help me out.

I have been using this method for about a little over a month. I am getting some brown spots on the older leaves. At first (like the first week of the plants lives) I wasn't checking the pH of the nute solution and was using spring water from Wal Mart. Then I went through the entire thread and read that H3ad said he was using distilled water.

I switched to distilled water and got my pH meter back from a friend that had my meter for a while. So I started adjusting the pH to 5.8 using the 6/9 with distilled water. The pH had been too low. The plants started to look better and I thought that I had the problem solved. But it is starting to do the same thing again.

Some of my lower leaves are "clawed" on the bottom of the plants too. Not one of the newer leaves have done that though. Just a few of the oldest leaves look like that.

My tap water has chloramine in it, which I was told on here before doesn't evaporate out of the water like chlorine does.

Like I said, I read the entire thread and took notes from H3ad's posts for future reference. I am doing everything exactly how he says he does it. The plants are growing fast and have AWESOME roots. I thought about switching to Canna nutrients. But I'd rather not do that. I get sick of spending so much money on nutrients...(I've grown in soil until this point with awesome results). Even with the problem I have the 6/9 in coco grow faster and fuller than the plants in soil.

What do you think could be wrong? Any ideas?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Rushoe]

H3ad for President!

Jus saying thanks for Casey and the formula!

Here is some Chemdog loving some 6/9.

looks good bro are u using RO water????I have chem d and I have feed her 5 mili calmag cuz I use ro water and the 6/9 to find out that she doest like it.....Something is wrong I cant seem to get a st8 answer outa anyone I have been asking for a bout a year now almost and no one can answer me about not using calmag with this using ro water 6/9 just like that alone with out calmag gives me a very low ppm reading and plants start to show calmag problems the next day....So does anyone here use RO waterWITH OUT CALMAG?????????????????????I would love to seem someone post a pick of something like a chem d or an og in coco with out calmag using ro water with the 6/9 I just dont see it happening I have even asked head a number of times and come up shorty every time so what I need now is for someone to explain to me how this works with out calmag I know that will not work bcuz i have used it and my og's and chems did not like it.....Nore did anything else c99 green crack ect.....If u use ro water u need calmag no if ands or buts...Or is there something that I'm missing??????????Plz someone clear this up for me.....And is this casey jones or chem d in the pic??????Plz tell me that it is the chem d in the photo and that u use ro water........and how u keep them green like that pls bro help me out.!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jonezin]

Couldn't find any other way to contact Mr Grat3fulh3ad so I'll be happy to do it in the thread from which I'm taking so much.

Basically I'm a new grower who just started back in July using coco and Canna Coco line of nutes. Had one harvest in November that was good and am about a week away from a harvest of some Barney's Farm Red Dragon to which I'm looking forward.

Basically I'm a member of grass city and learned from some friends about the Lucas Formula. Using the little lucasformula.com reference page I learned there was a modified version of the formula for coco growers.

I started reading this entire thread and cutting out everything Mr h3ad would say that was growing related. Currently I'm on about page 47 but I couldn't wait any longer to say thank you.

I've already bought a 2.5 gallon jug of GH Micro and a 5 gallon jug of GH Flora and I've started to transition as I run out of Canna nutes. Based on your experience and information I feel sure of success and a much easier (and cheaper) method of feeding than I am now using.

One question would be if there is an up to date chart with your recommended mix for each stage of growth from fresh cut clones through your pure water finish? I will find it through a full thread read but if there is a summary reference to which I can link friends I would be happy to use it.

Thank you once again for all of your time and effort in passing along information of such a simple and extremely valuable quality.

- Bean

I have read every single post he has made in this thread, a lot of it more than once. I took some notes that may help you, or maybe someone else from having to read every single post to get all the info you might need. I know some of it is repeated, but I have a really BAD headache right this minute for some reason, and I don't feel like editing all of this. Here are my notes. These are all posts that H3ad made throughout the thread:

"6/ml micro.......... 9/ml bloom

pre-treat the coco with 1/2 strength nutes

seedlings generally do not need to be fed for the first 10 to 14 days

I use 6ml/gallon GH flora micro and
9ml/gallon GH flora Bloom
1/2 strength for seedlings and freshly rooted clones
Full strength from the beginning of Veg until they begin bud formation
then
9ml/gallon GH flora bloom up until 2 weeks prior to harvest
Then plain water to finish.


You can drop the micro when stretch has completely stopped, and calyx production seems at it's peak... roughly 1/2 way through flowering depending on strain...


My yields are always higher when the containers never dry out. The 8 and 10 ounce plants are in 5 gal of coco.


"""""Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad
I use 6ml/gallon GH flora micro and
9ml/gallon GH flora Bloom

1/2 strength for seedlings and freshly rooted clones

Full strength from the beginning of Veg until they begin bud formation
then

9ml/gallon GH flora bloom up until 2 weeks prior to harvest

Then plain water to finish.
is pretty much the regimen I've settled into...
I'm running the 6/9 until the production of new calyx begins to slow... a couple of weeks into flower production on faster flowering strains, a bit longer for 70+ day flowerers... Some of the heavier finishers get the extra 3 ml/gal of bloom that last week... then 0/9 up until flush time...

I have been trying minor variations... upping the bloom during veg gave a bit of Mg/Ca lockout... Leaving out the micro too early looses bud mass... Leaving the micro in too long makes flushing more difficult... Not flushing long enough affects the quality of the flavor and burn... Watering with no runoff at all causes lockout and flushing issues late in flower... Watering with more than a tiny bit of runoff is a waste of nute, and environmentally irresponsible...

No matter what variations I've tried, I seem to end up right back just about where I am now..."""""


There is NO SUCH THING as too much water, only too little oxygen in the water. If there were any such thing as too much water DWC would not work.I will say it so there is no confusion...

Unless you are growing in DWC, you will ALWAYS need to make sure your media has adequate drainage. Stagnant water kills plants.



I soak the seeds in h2o until they sink, then put then into styrofoam egg carton cells (with one or two pinholes on the side close to the bottom) full of moist coco and as soon as they break ground I put them as close to the fluoros as I can without feeling heat. I like the styrofoam egg carton cells because they root up fast and prevent any water stress issues, and I feel like I'm recycling something, plus they reflect light well. as soon as they start growing regular leaves and being fed normal strength nute, I move them into small solo cups.
coco hydrated with nute.
water with ph adjusted tap until seed leaves begin to lighten and regular leaves begin to form, then a couple of 1/2 str feedings then once real leaves are growing transplant and feed regularly.


Those plants go in at about 18" tall and nearly that big across, LSTd, 3 plants by 6 plants with the 1K walking about 4 ft on a mover. Plant footprint is about 6ftx12ft. Plants get rotated so that every plant sits in the center row for a couple of days each week and the plants on the outside rows get 180'd every day.

The 2oz/per is with plants like ChemD, C99 and G33... I get slightly less with SourD, Trainwreck and kushes and the like, maybe 1.5...


1 gal coco per 2 ft of finished plant/roughly...


Damp coco for seedlings, damper coco for plants.



Once a plant is growing roots I water often.
Lots of peeps get great results letting it dry up, too.
At concentrations all the way up to full strength 6/9 I don't see build up being a potential problem unless you are keeping them in the same container for more than 120 days. At 80 or 90 you shouldn't have to worry.




I only flush for about 2 weeks, maybe a day or three longer depending...
I don't do a weekly schedule thingy, though... I generally watch my plants, since some go 9 weeks and some go 11... I feed like veg until the plant completely stops stretching and begins bud formation in earnest, then depending on the plant I will bump up the bloom for a week or two before cutting out the micro just about the time the calyx production begins to slow and budswell begins... I feed 0/9 up until 12-16 days before harvest and then go to water for the rest... If a plant does not look done yet when the day count is right I'll let if go a couple more...



I rinse the coco with physan.
Once the seeds pop through I run a drop or two of physan down the stem...

I mix at about 1.5 tsp/gal



I use physan to make sure sterile seedlings go into sterile coco.
Once they are up with seed leaves open gathering light,
I water them daily with pH 6 water for a week, then go to weak nute... when the seed leaves start to yellow I start to increase food...
I have never used a mat, but the room is climate controlled...

One other thing I do, that may be merely superstition but seems to hold true anecdotally, is to germ seeds only during a waxing moon... they seem healthier to me, but I have no hard data proving so...



when mites feed they inject enzymes into the plant which retard the flowering process, much like mosquitos inject anticoagulants when they bite...




clones are already sexually mature.
Plants from seed will usually not flower in 12/12 until they reach sexual maturity.
usually sometime between the 5th internode and the 11th or so, when they stop pairing and start alternating...




It will be useless for you to flower your plants which you grew from seed, until they reach sexual maturity. You will know when to flip them to 12/12 by the alternating internodes.





increasing watering will increase the rate at which new air is pulled into the medium.

overwatering is really a misnomer. it should be called under oxygenation. if overwatering were really possible then deep water culture wouldn't work.





H3ad,

Let me preface this post with what soo many other Grat3ful growers have already done...thank you soo much for helping to inform us who have neither the experience or senses to come up with on our own.

I tried to PM you to avoid clogging up this thread but for some reason cannot. And if I ask a question that has already been covered, please accept my apologies. The 24 pages of this thread was exhausting...especially when you get to the troll at the end.

1) It was said to flush the coco before using. Is this with plain water or 6/9 solution or a diluted strength?
plain water for transplanting cuttings or for seedlings, nute solution for transplanting established plants.
Quote:

2) Will this formula for coco work for most strains?
yup
Quote:

3) What is the environment you run in? Canopy temps, RH in veg and flower, day and night?
depends on the location, but I like to run with a canopy temp around 80F at 40%rh with dark temps dropping to 72 or so.
Quote:

4) My tap is usually around 7.4 pH and usually around 300-350ppm. Should I use RO only or a mix of tap/RO?
I'd try starting with a mix.
Quote:

5) Once you mix a batch of nutes, how long can it sit in the reservoir before you should dump and remix? I plan on handwatering to waste, and using a pump to constantly recirculate nutes in the reservoir between feedings.
I usually use everything I mix within a week
Quote:

6) You mentioned toward the end of the thread that you would prefer the "crouton" style coco. Would you still want to add some perlite or is the coarse coco coarse enough to add more air pockets?
I would like the coarse to mix in with the grounds. I have a friend in straight croutons right now and he is watering a lot... If I was running drippers I might try straight croutons...
Quote:

7) I have some clones that were rooted in rapid rooters, then started in Light Warrior in dixie cups and then transplanted to 6" pots in Roots Organics soil. Can you successfully transfer those to coco? I could take cuttings from those clones in the soil now and start fresh in coco if it would be more successful.
I have transplanted beer cups of pro-mix into coco with no issues, it should be fine.

I feed clones full strength from the time they're fully rooted onward.
When I transplant, I transplant into damp coco and skip a couple of days waterings, and then start watering regularly.

I recently had a couple of bad batches of coco and found a new source. Going to GH cocotek now, and it seems nice and fibrous.

I have used azamax with success on the gnats."

 

[Bobby Stainless]

Jonezin:Some people have to add approx 5ml of Calmag. I don't.


6/9 + 2ml of Bloombastic, ph 5.8, ppm 1200 (this is due to the Bloombastic, before it was around 700-800), Filtered water (not RO)

Day 37 Chemdog

 

[jonezin]

Thanks for the tip Bobby Stainless. Your grow looks awesome.

What do you think about my water situation? Should I quit using distilled and just use bottled spring water?

I really wish my tap water didn't have chloramine in it. I have used it in the past and didn't notice any ill side effects, but I only used it (my tap water) when I absolutely had to. I am just afraid to use it since several people on here have told me not to use water with chloramine in it.

I don't know if it matters as much, or maybe more, in coco. At the time I was growing in soil and was told it would kill all the beneficials in my soil.

I have access to well water. But it would be kind of a pain for me to haul it from where I would have to go get it.

I don't have an EC/ppm meter, but I am buying one next week. Right this minute all I have for meters is a Hanna Champ pH meter.

 

[Mountain High]

I saw some issues with using my tap water but never so bad that I couldn't grow. As soon as i started using 50/50 tap/ RO everything is perfect. Try to get a filter when the means are there. EC meter is mandatory IMO. I Mix RO and tap til ppm is 65 - 75 on a .5 conversion. Always let the tap water sit out for a day to let the chlorine evaporate off. I have used both, Botanicare Cal Mag + and General Organics Cal Mag (zero nitrogen) and I personally like the General Organics Cal Mag better. I don't see the downward claw from too much N any more.

 

[jonezin]

I saw some issues with using my tap water but never so bad that I couldn't grow. As soon as i started using 50/50 tap/ RO everything is perfect. Try to get a filter when the means are there. EC meter is mandatory IMO. I Mix RO and tap til ppm is 65 - 75 on a .5 conversion. Always let the tap water sit out for a day to let the chlorine evaporate off. I have used both, Botanicare Cal Mag + and General Organics Cal Mag (zero nitrogen) and I personally like the General Organics Cal Mag better. I don't see the downward claw from too much N any more.

My water doesn't have chlorine in it though, it has chloramine. Chloramine doesn't evaporate out of the water.

I have been looking for a filter that says it filters out chloramine but so far I haven't been able to find one.

I think for now I am just going to switch over to spring water. That's what I was using at first, but switched to distilled since I had read a post from H3ad saying he used distilled. At the time though I didn't have my pH meter (I had loaned it to a friend) and my pH was off.

I already have Botanicare Cal Mag +, it's almost gone though so I am going to have to buy something soon. I am going to add that for now, and make sure the pH is at 5.8. I was just looking at the General Organics CaMg+, along with Equilibrium Natural Ca-Mg. I'm gonna go see what my local store has, but he probably only has the Botanicare Cal Mag + in there. The place hasn't been open long and they don't have much...

Thanks.

 

[jonezin]

Here is my latest water quality report. Where does it say that there is chloramine in my water? I posted this report from 2008 last year or something and someone said that there is chloramine in my water. It says Chlorine. But I don't see anything about Chloramine. Am I missing something?

 

[Bobby Stainless]

Here is what I would do.

Go and buy a water filter of some kind, and filter your tap.

Test the PH and PPM first, and then add 6/9 PH and PPM again, then hit one plant.

That is just what I would do.

 

[humble1]

Hydrologic filters with their KDF85 carbon filter do remove chloramine unless you have a ridiculously high amount, it does not appear to be shown in the charts you posted.

 

[Mountain High]

Yes a filter is what you need like Bobby said.

 

[jonezin]

Thanks to everyone for the help. I just went to Home Depot and looked at their filters. Now I need to figure out what to get.

I looked at the Hydrologic filters online and I can't afford one of those right this minute. I don't know why whoever it was told me that my water has chloramine in it. I still have that old water analysis and it doesn't say anything about chloramine in that either... I guess I should have looked at it closer myself. I've been thinking all this time that I have chloramine in my water and have spent a small fortune on bottled water because of it...

Home Depot has a RO system made by GE for $150, but I can't afford that either right now... Plus, it says it only filters 10 gallons a day. So I think I'd pass on that one anyway.

Would one of those Pur brand that screw onto your faucet suffice? If so, I already have one of those. I also have some other filter here that someone gave to me that mounts under your sink. I need to dig it out and see what it is exactly. I know it uses a replaceable filter like, RO systems use, and has it's own little faucet thing you can mount, just like that RO system HD has.

All of those filters at Home Depot say that they just reduce chlorine, except for the RO system. Not one of them said that it removes chlorine totally.

I don't know if it's a waste of time/money but I picked up one of their water test kits. It says it tests the pH, total alkalinity, total chlorine, total hardness, hydrogen sulfide, iron, copper, nitrates, nitrites and iron bacteria.

I'm gonna test my water with that kit just for the hell of it and see what it says. I'll update this post later on and tell you guys what the results say.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[jonezin]

Well here's the deal.

I'm done using distilled water. And so called "spring", or as Botanicare calls it, mineral water. I've rooted clones in my tap water, started seeds with my tap water etc.

My wife has at least 30 plants (houseplants) that she always waters with the tap water here. She moved in here 5 years ago and when she moved in here her plants started growing WAY better than they did at her old house. So it's either from them getting more light, or the water here is better than the water she had at her old house.

I dug that filter out that I mentioned that I thought mounted under the sink. It's not what I thought it was. It is just some Honeywell filter that you hook right to the faucet permanently (well until it's used up anyway). The filter/spout on it is supposed to just sit on the counter/sink. When you want filtered water there is a little thing you pull out on the piece that mounts to the faucet and it reroutes the water to the filter. I have looked on Honeywell's website to find information about this thing and it's not even on their site. Apparently they don't list discontinued products. You can't change the filter in it, and the box says that it will filter 1000 gallons before it's junk. Anyway.....

A couple other things I wanted to tell you guys is I read on Botanicares website that chlorine is so volatile that by the time it hits the soil and gets to the roots it is gone and not to worry about it. Something else I found on their website says that you should use a CAL MAG supplement for the first two weeks in coco.

I also contacted Canna to ask them about water, I lied to them and told them I was using all their products , they finally responded today and said that as long as there is less than a few ppm's of Chloramine or Chlorine that it's not an issue.

I still haven't gotten a filter. Other than that Honeywell piece of junk, so I am just filling 5 gallon buckets of my tap water and aerating it and using that.

I also picked up some of that General Organics CaMg and have been using that. My plants are doing better and I don't have any new rust spots or anything.

I don't remember if I mentioned this yet or not, but I have my coco plants in 5 gallon grow bags. And I also have a plant (same strain, same age) in a 7 gallon Root Pot (same thing as those smart pots) and the coco plants are a lot bigger and fuller/bushier than that plant in the Root Pot/Smart Pot.

Thanks for helping me figure this crap out. I've been plagued with this rust before (when I was only growing in soil) and have been told so many different things about it I didn't know what the hell to think. I was also using distilled and spring water back then. So I am sure that was my problem all along.

I'm gonna post a pic of one of my plants in a little while.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Mountain High]

Glad you got it figured out Jonezin. Once you find that sweet spot don't change anything. Lets see those pics.

 

[IwannatokeNbone]

if coco grown erb could compete with soil grown id be back on it, rockwool, coco etc doesnt have the staying power or depth of stone/high/dimensionality that erb grown with dirt does.

 

[squarepush3r]

And I also have a plant (same strain, same age) in a 7 gallon Root Pot (same thing as those smart pots) and the coco plants are a lot bigger and fuller/bushier than that plant in the Root Pot/Smart Pot.

so, smart pots are bad?

 

[squarepush3r]

Depends on how moist your Coco is staying and how well they are rooted. If the roots are not filling the cup, just keep it damp, not soaked. Once the roots explode, the more moist you can keep it. The concept is to fill the cup with roots as fast as possible. The more often they NEED to be watered, the faster they grow. Good luck!!

BTW, with clones and seedlings...I prefer to bottom feed for the first week or so. Promotes root growth downwards. If your Coco is too wet, your roots will not grow as fast. Trust me, I use clear cups with Cover cups...to watch my root system grow. Roots seek water, if the Coco is too moist...they do not have to SEEK

I'm not so sure if this is true. As you can see with the Under Current systems, roots are constantly wet and grow like rabbits on crack. I believe soaking the roots can deplete DO levels, which can stunt root growth.

 

[jonezin]

so, smart pots are bad?

I never said they are bad, I just said that the coco plant is a lot bigger/bushier than the plant in the 7 gallon Root Pot/Smart Pot.

Here are the pics. It's one of the coco plants (the one that had that rust crap the worst) sitting next to the plant that is in the Root Pot/Smart Pot. The coco plant (the one on the right) is in a 5 gallon grow bag that is sitting inside of a 4 gallon plastic pot. As you can see the coco plant is taller than the plant in the soil. The plant in the 7 gal. root pot is in Roots Organics Natural and Organic Potting Soil, and I am using Roots organics nutrients with it.

The other picture is just to give you an idea what the one side of my room looks like. I don't have the second 1000 watter on at the moment because I am in the process of getting my ventilation set up. I don't even have the exhaust hooked to the lights yet. The reason for that is it is so cold here right now, that I use the lights to heat the room during the day and have my exhaust set so that the temps during the day stay between 74°-78°. At night I have an electric heater in there to keep it from getting too cold in the room. At first the room was getting down to 59° at night.

Both plants are the same age. It's kind of hard to tell just how bushy the coco plant is in the pic. But it's way bushier than the one in soil. Today is day 7 of 12/12.

I get my tax return Friday and plan on spending most of it on grow equipment. I'm already getting kind of tired of hand watering these coco plants. It's a LOT of work. I have some other plants in another room in DWC (first time trying it). So I have to take care of those, the coco plants, the soil plants etc. etc. etc... It's kind of a pain.

IwannatokeNbone, This is the first time I have went all the way through with a coco grow. I have started some in coco (bagseed) just experimenting, and the plants I have grown in coco, even when I was totally clueless, blew the soil plants away every time, as far as growth rate I mean. But like I said, at the time I was clueless with coco, and it was bagseed anyway and I was just screwing around. I never let them get very big before I just chopped them. I was growing in a tent at the time and didn't have room for them anyway. I guess I will have to wait and see if I agree with you after these get done...

At any rate, thanks for all of the help. I really appreciate it.

 

[IwannatokeNbone]

growth rate in coco is much better, stone/high im sorry is a second to soil grown.

 

[jonezin]

Well, if you are right about that that sucks. I've never heard that before. I've heard that about rockwool before, but I've also heard the opposite.

Does anyone else agree with IwannatokeNbone that coco grown plants are inferior when it comes to quality/the high?