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Growroom Electricity and Wiring

rives

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I appreciate the thought, but no, I wouldn't be interested.

The PLC/programmable relays are a great option if you have the capacity to modify the program yourself to accommodate the changes that inevitably pop up, but to add the necessary human interface equipment and the programming necessary to allow an end user a reasonable level of future adaptability would make it prohibitively expensive. It's not bad if you can directly program via a laptop, but for a casual user, things change radically. For instance, a setup similar to mine would need an A-B "Panelview" HMI (Human-Machine Interface) to input changes into a program that has already been set up for it. A quick look at eBay shows that these are going for somewhere between $750-3000 without the programming software. By the time you get all of the enclosures, cabling, and other required gear, you are talking some pretty serious jingle.

I would suggest looking very closely at the greenhouse controller and see how it works. An option that has always intrigued me is using one of the more sophisticated sprinkler timers. They are comparatively cheap, reliable, easily programmed, reasonably flexible, battery-backed, and many have an input for rainy days that could be used to shut things down if necessary. All of them that I've seen are 24vac based, but that isn't a limitation - there is a wide variety of power relays, control relays, valves, or basically any other type of control equipment that you could want that are available in that voltage. The end result would be a controller that wouldn't have the ultimate flexibility of the PLC's, but would be much more friendly toward the casual user and wouldn't necessitate hiring someone every time you want to make a change.
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
I appreciate the thought, but no, I wouldn't be interested.

The PLC/programmable relays are a great option if you have the capacity to modify the program yourself to accommodate the changes that inevitably pop up, but to add the necessary human interface equipment and the programming necessary to allow an end user a reasonable level of future adaptability would make it prohibitively expensive. It's not bad if you can directly program via a laptop, but for a casual user, things change radically. For instance, a setup similar to mine would need an A-B "Panelview" HMI (Human-Machine Interface) to input changes into a program that has already been set up for it. A quick look at eBay shows that these are going for somewhere between $750-3000 without the programming software. By the time you get all of the enclosures, cabling, and other required gear, you are talking some pretty serious jingle.

I would suggest looking very closely at the greenhouse controller and see how it works. An option that has always intrigued me is using one of the more sophisticated sprinkler timers. They are comparatively cheap, reliable, easily programmed, reasonably flexible, battery-backed, and many have an input for rainy days that could be used to shut things down if necessary. All of them that I've seen are 24vac based, but that isn't a limitation - there is a wide variety of power relays, control relays, valves, or basically any other type of control equipment that you could want that are available in that voltage. The end result would be a controller that wouldn't have the ultimate flexibility of the PLC's, but would be much more friendly toward the casual user and wouldn't necessitate hiring someone every time you want to make a change.

I think the sprinkler timers might work well for sophisticated hydro systems & staggered start for larger systems. OTOH, I probably won't be going that way anytime rsn. I like the simplicity & low maintenance of blumats in organic soil. All the work is in mixing the stuff & recycling it. I just watch for malfunctions & pests during the grow cycle. It might be different in a larger grow, but it works well for our little personal effort.
 

rives

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I think the sprinkler timers might work well for sophisticated hydro systems & staggered start for larger systems. OTOH, I probably won't be going that way anytime rsn. I like the simplicity & low maintenance of blumats in organic soil. All the work is in mixing the stuff & recycling it. I just watch for malfunctions & pests during the grow cycle. It might be different in a larger grow, but it works well for our little personal effort.

Yep, as you know, I'm an advocate for Blumats.

What I was referring to here, though, is the use of sprinkler timers as primarily a lighting controller. The larger models could probably be used as a combination lighting/hydro controller depending on your irrigation needs and the timer minimum settings. I used to use flood & drain years ago, and that style would be easily doable but the methods using very short duration, frequent cycles might be a reach.
 

hvac guy

Active member
Rives would you be interested in making a secure, payment option IE Paypal etc, making one and sending it to me? I wouldn't mind putting the money up first if you were to make me something along the lines of that and obviously you put your profit amount in with the parts amount. you would let me know the cost.



I can build you anything you need, if you want something built let me know, I will email you pics of controllers I've built and a link to my Dropbox. I'm an industrial electrician and now working on my HVACR ticket, at my third year now. Pics are a few items I've built.
 

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mowood3479

Active member
Veteran
Attn jhhnn and Rives and all other Icmag electrical gurus:
I'm needing to set up a new 240v 30amp circuit for 2 ton mini split install. The sub panel that I would like to plug that circuit into currently houses (4) 20 amp single pole breakers and (1) 60 amp double pole breaker. currently all of the circuit breakers in the sub panel are switched off and unused (except (1) 20 amp circuit that runs the propane furnace. )

my plan is to switch out the 60amp for a 30amp breaker and run new 10/2 wire to the mini split compressor
My questions are this... The wire that feeds this sub panel is aluminum (I think). It's a braided silver colored wire.
I haven't run into aluminum wire before and I think I remember reading it's not supposed to be used in residential applications.
I'm not sure what guage it is but its real thick.. It looks the same size as the wire from the meter to the main panel.
do I need to redo the feed wire to the sub panel to get rid of the aluminum? Also I'd imagine without knowing the guage of the aluminum wire it mayb impossible to say whether it needs to be replaced. I didn't see any numbers on the insulation and I can't tell the gauge by looking at it like I can romex.
Any suggestions are welcome
Thank you
..
 

rives

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Attn jhhnn and Rives and all other Icmag electrical gurus:
I'm needing to set up a new 240v 30amp circuit for 2 ton mini split install. The sub panel that I would like to plug that circuit into currently houses (4) 20 amp single pole breakers and (1) 60 amp double pole breaker. currently all of the circuit breakers in the sub panel are switched off and unused (except (1) 20 amp circuit that runs the propane furnace. )

my plan is to switch out the 60amp for a 30amp breaker and run new 10/2 wire to the mini split compressor
My questions are this... The wire that feeds this sub panel is aluminum (I think). It's a braided silver colored wire.
I haven't run into aluminum wire before and I think I remember reading it's not supposed to be used in residential applications.
I'm not sure what guage it is but its real thick.. It looks the same size as the wire from the meter to the main panel.
do I need to redo the feed wire to the sub panel to get rid of the aluminum? Also I'd imagine without knowing the guage of the aluminum wire it mayb impossible to say whether it needs to be replaced. I didn't see any numbers on the insulation and I can't tell the gauge by looking at it like I can romex.
Any suggestions are welcome
Thank you

Someplace along the outer jacket should be the wire size, the number of conductors, and "AL" if it is aluminum. If you can't find it on the sub end, you may be able to see it at the main panel. Aluminum is commonly used for feeders and heavy circuits like the range, but not for plug circuits - it seems to me that it is restricted to #6 and larger, or 40 amps and above (aluminum conductors need to be larger than copper to carry the same current). The connections should be coated with an anti-oxidant compound to keep the wires from oxidizing, and the lugs that the wires are terminated in should be rated AL/CU (for usage with either aluminum or copper conductors).
 

mowood3479

Active member
Veteran
Ok thanks Rives I'm going to determine the size and # of the aluminum wires feeding the sub panel and I'll report back. But I take it ur saying aluminum wire is acceptable for feeding a sub panel (as long as the breakers and wire are properly sized)?

Iam a tad suspicious of the existing wiring done at this house... The main panel is built into the cabinets and has a wooden cabinet door cover (idk but I don't think this it to code).... I've had a few issues as well (neutral wire burning up) due to a striped screw (loose connection) on the neutral bar. (also recently had a mouse or something chew into the wiring to the water pump, so I had to re run that wire).
Anyway I've never seen such a messy main panel. If I owned the house I'd have it re-done
 

mowood3479

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Veteran
the aluminum wire that feeds the sub panel has this written on it 3cdrs 6al (ul). It's about 30 ft from the main to the sub panel.
 

rives

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the aluminum wire that feeds the sub panel has this written on it 3cdrs 6al (ul). It's about 30 ft from the main to the sub panel.

In front of the 3CDRS marking, there should be a an insulation designation like TW, THHN, XHHW, THWN, etc. The insulation is what is going to determine the current rating of the wire - the various insulations are rated for different temperatures, and that will dictate the amount of amperage that the wire is rated for.

#6 aluminum wire is rated for a maximum of 40-60 amps depending on the insulation. A search showed that "3CDRS" is frequently used on XHHW wire, and that is rated for a maximum of 50 amps. There is no guarantee what your wire actually is unless you can find the marking.
 

eebbnflow

Member
Hey I have a delema here . I have an unused dryer circuit . I pulled the fuse block to replace the fuses (30 amp cartridge fuse , 3inches long . The only fuses I can find are midget fuses 30amp . 2 inches long they don't fit :/ . I can find ones that fit BUT THEY ARE 35 amp ! I've been looking everywhere . See photo plz

Next , the fuse block says 60 amp max . Seems simple to buy a 60amp load centre with 6/3 wire with a 30amp for a dyer plug and a 20 amp double pole for another 240v plug I need . Is this okay ? Fuse to breaker load centre ? Thank you
 

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rives

Inveterate Tinkerer
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Hey I have a delema here . I have an unused dryer circuit . I pulled the fuse block to replace the fuses (30 amp cartridge fuse , 3inches long . The only fuses I can find are midget fuses 30amp . 2 inches long they don't fit :/ . I can find ones that fit BUT THEY ARE 35 amp ! I've been looking everywhere . See photo plz

Next , the fuse block says 60 amp max . Seems simple to buy a 60amp load centre with 6/3 wire with a 30amp for a dyer plug and a 20 amp double pole for another 240v plug I need . Is this okay ? Fuse to breaker load centre ? Thank you

As you've found, the step in dimensions for Type P fuses jumps from 2" long to 3" long at 30 and 35 amps, respectively. There is nothing at all wrong with feeding a breaker panel with a fused disconnect. There are also "fuse adapters" available, which will press onto the smaller fuse caps and increase the diameter and length of the smaller fuse to fit in the larger fuse holder, but they may be difficult to find for your application.
 

eebbnflow

Member
As you've found, the step in dimensions for Type P fuses jumps from 2" long to 3" long at 30 and 35 amps, respectively. There is nothing at all wrong with feeding a breaker panel with a fused disconnect. There are also "fuse adapters" available, which will press onto the smaller fuse caps and increase the diameter and length of the smaller fuse to fit in the larger fuse holder, but they may be difficult to find for your application.

Hey Rives Thanks for your fast response . I'm going with new 60a panel feed from the 60a fuse seems more logical because I also needed 230v 20 amp plug to power something . I will post pics of the work before power on !
 

eebbnflow

Member
Hey Rives

Are these terminals rated at 60a as well ? The fuse "holder" for the dryer says 60a max . The terminals on range fuse connect look different compared to the dryer s it has me thinking .
 

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rives

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Fuse holders are usually referred to by the maximum size that they will accept even though a lighter circuit may be the norm. The terminals associated with them, and any busswork, should also be rated for the maximum amperage that the fuse block will support.
 

eebbnflow

Member
Nothing is connected yet but this is where I'm at, 12/2 with ground for the 2pole 20a breaker . And 10/3 for 2pole 30a dryer plug , what do you think ? Thank you
 

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