Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[Tyga]

Good idea brother... I would perfer to snake a ground actually assuming the sconce is grounded m. (I will double check on that) because that will give me 20A opposed to 15A and I can shut off my lights in the bathroom still... Ill keep ya posted!! Thanks for your help.

 

[ghettochild]

anybody got a diy manual fof a 50amp light controller i need to power 10kw and dont want to buy an mlc or titan controller.

thanks pm me if you can help

 

[rives]

I'm not aware of any "manual" for a controller, or even a good, documented build-up, but can probably help you out if you don't get any response.

 

[Layedback530]

Hey Guys, experienced grower here moving to the legal side of things. I have experience in residential power but moving into a industrial building is definately out of my range. I will be hiring an electrician to handle the work but im trying to put together my business model and need numbers and what to expect/ or look for in the warehouse.

I want to use these two pieces of equipment and need to know what i need to look for in the warehouse i lease to minimize costs (upgrading circuit breaker or using step down transformers to get 480v to 208v or 240v etc.

-Gavita Pro 1000watt ballasts (400v bulbs) - Specs: 240v
-ExcelAir Stealth Elite Series AC Unit (5 ton) - Specs: 208v-230v
-Variety of 110v/120v equipment

My questions are: What should i look for in a warehouse to lease to make this as easy as possible. Also, if im looking at a 2500sq ft or 5000sq ft(expansion) industrial space, what is most common? 3 phase 480v with 120v transformer? And, If im trying to run Gavitas that are 240v and my AC unit which is NOT 240v... what do i do? Please guide me in the right direction. Do i have to ditch the gavitas and find a 208v to run with the ExcelAir unit?

 

[rives]

I don't have much experience with warehouses or commercial-type buildings, the vast majority of my experience is in heavy industrial, so perhaps someone (Jhhnn?) can jump in and fill in any blanks.

I know that 3-phase 240v is reasonably common in light industrial and commercial work. There are also transformers that go from that to 208/120v, and that sounds like it would cover all of your needs pretty handily. I don't know how common that arrangement is, but it seems like it would be more common than 480v in that genre. If you start getting into doing a complete build-out from a 480v distribution system, be prepared to spend some pretty serious money.

 

[Layedback530]

So what im looking for is a spot wired for 240v 3 phase. Transformers going to 208v and 120v will cost approxiately how much? i know it is hard to say based on the amt or wiring i will require, but a estimate on just the hardware? Another question, my goal is starting with 30 gavitas and 2 AC units. They AC unit are also dehumidifiers and run at 67 amps total. the gavitas run around 130 amps total on 240v. everything is approximately 225amps. so a 300amp breaker would suffice? is that about what ill find in most warehouse that size? what are the chances of finding 600amps on a small warehouse like that? and if impossible to find, when i want to upgrade form 30 lights to 60, and use 500 amps, will upgrading to a 600amp circuit breaker cost about 50k?

 

[rives]

It is very likely that any spot that you could find that had 3-phase 240 power would already have transformers set to supply 120v. The trick would be to find one that also supplies 208.

Transformer cost varies by their capacity, so you would need to have a good handle on the total load that it would need to support and and any future load that might be connected, and then multiply it by 1.25. The type of enclosure that they are in, whether they are wall mount, pad mount, pole mount, dry, oil-filled, etc, all impact the cost. A 25kva single-phase transformer will support up to 200 amps of 120v or 120 amps of 208, or a proportionate mix of the two and will cost somewhere between $2-5,000. Then you have to get power both to and from it, as well as all of the fusing/breakers on both sides, etc, etc.

You want to stay under 80% loading of your feed, so a 300a main would work with your anticipated load. Bear in mind, though, that you never think of everything that winds up getting installed.

I can't help you on the likelihood of finding that power combination with that warehouse size, I just don't have any experience in that arena. Also, the cost of upgrading is dependent on too many variables, including what the power company has for infrastructure, to answer your question.

 

[Jhhnn]

My experience in commercial buildings is mostly limited to working in them & paying attention, being pals with the electricians who maintained them. And that's large commercial space, many times larger than 5000 sq ft.

Small commercial space could have most anything, depending on what it was used for previously. If it was just a warehouse, it might only have 240/120. There might not even be 3 phase power at the pole outside. If it was an actual industrial facility, like a machine shop or manufacturing plant it's a lot more likely to have power sufficient for your needs. There's a division of skills between linemen who set up the power going into the building & the electricians who take it from there. Electrical engineers cover both, and that's really who you want to consult before committing to any space.

I'd advise not setting your heart on any particular equipment until you know what you're dealing with. If there's not 3 phase on the pole outside, you def don't want to pay the power company to bring it for you if they're even willing. You probably don't want to pay for specialized transformers to convert a given arrangement to something else, either. That's why you want an electrical engineer if it's not obvious that the power you need isn't already in the building.

Having said that, 480/277 is mostly used at 277 for lighting. In modern construction, 480 is apparently used mostly for large motors or specialized equipment where the boss ordered the wrong voltage. We bought an axle bearing press that used 480 single phase & the electricians were commanded to make it work rather than change the motor to something more tractable in that building. They did, at great expense. You don't want that. 208/120 is widely used, particularly 208 3 phase for HVAC purposes. It's an excellent motor voltage, and running any leg against the neutral gives 120v.

That's probably your best scenario, if you're willing to use equipment compatible with that.

 

[rives]

Something that you might want to be aware of is that there is a break in electrical gear at 300 volts and at 600 volts. This is regarding insulation values, but it impacts everything in the design. 300v gear is widely available and comparatively cheap, but when you make the jump to 600v rated equipment (which is where 480 falls), you just jumped into a pretty rarefied atmosphere and the equipment gets much more specialized and waaaay more expensive.

 

[Jhhnn]

Something that you might want to be aware of is that there is a break in electrical gear at 300 volts and at 600 volts. This is regarding insulation values, but it impacts everything in the design. 300v gear is widely available and comparatively cheap, but when you make the jump to 600v rated equipment (which is where 480 falls), you just jumped into a pretty rarefied atmosphere and the equipment gets much more specialized and waaaay more expensive.

Yep. That's why 480 is split at the breaker panel into 277 single phase for lighting & why 208 3 phase is very widely used for motors as in HVAC compressors.

 

[Layedback530]

So the best plan of action is to tell my broker to find me something in that arena of different electrical specs and then hire the electrical engineer to come and check the space out to give me an idea or estimate. Is that what growers moving to commercial space do everytime? Common commercial sense, lol?

And that means, theres no way to create even an estimate for a business model/plan...

Thanks for your advice guys, if anyone has any more advice for looking for commercial space and what i should consider etc please chime in.

 

[rives]

I'm not sold on the EE idea. A good electrician with experience in that sector should be adequate, but it depends on your access to qualified people.

No, you cannot arrive at a meaningful estimate without knowing specifically what is already in place at any given spot - existing installations could cover the gamut from being barely residential equivalent to being prepared for light industrial, and the same variability holds true with what the power company has available. You may find a spot that is perfect as is, or you may need to completely remodel a building as well as pay the utility to make adequate power available.

 

[Jhhnn]

You're probably right about the EE, depending, as you say. If Layedback530 & his electrician have the slightest doubts, it'd probably be a smart move.

The rest? You're right on the money. Suitable facilities in the Denver area have become scarce & expensive. Spoiled landlords are making out like bandits, with growers upgrading space that nobody wanted a few years ago- on their own dime, of course.

 

[DAVES NOT HERE]

this thread is pure gold...thank you sparkies for showing the way and undoubtedly saving countless grows

 

[reversecosmosis]

Hey guys. I'm installing a 100 amp sub panel in my basement. It will be less than 50 feet from my main panel. I've been researching the correct wire to run. I've come up with 2-2-2-4 aluminum ser. I just wanted to get some other input before I purchase and run the wire. Thanks for the help!

 

[rives]

If the insulation in the cable that you are looking at is rated for 90°C, then yes it is rated for 100a. There is a variation that is rated for 75°C, and it is only good for 90 amps.

My preference would be for copper wire, but the price difference is substantial. If you go with aluminum, make sure that your lugs are rated for Al/Cu and use NoAlox or an equivalent compound to prevent oxidation. Rechecking the torque on the lugs after a couple of months of service wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[The Doktor]

A step converter or phase converter will be an option as well.

http://www.phase-a-matic.com/

 

[Jhhnn]

If the insulation in the cable that you are looking at is rated for 90°C, then yes it is rated for 100a. There is a variation that is rated for 75°C, and it is only good for 90 amps.

My preference would be for copper wire, but the price difference is substantial. If you go with aluminum, make sure that your lugs are rated for Al/Cu and use NoAlox or an equivalent compound to prevent oxidation. Rechecking the torque on the lugs after a couple of months of service wouldn't be a bad idea.

The price of copper materials is obscene, whether it's wiring, pipe, fittings, anything with any mass to it at all.

 

[ganzas]

Hi,
is possible connect the follow equipments in one wire 4,0 mm² at 220 volts?
8 digital ballast 600 w each flip flop for flower room(when 4 are on, the others 4 are off);
3 digital ballast 250 w each for veg room;
5 extractor 50 w each;
5 fans 50 w each;
and more 200w total for others equipments...

 

[rives]

It looks like that is the close equivalent of #6 wire, which is rated at 60a in North America. What size breaker is feeding the circuit?

Assuming the conversion is correct, that circuit can handle up to about 11,500 watts of continuous load and bump up to 14,000+ for short-term loads. Your load totals around 6250 watts with the 600's all turned on, 3850 when flipping them. It should be plenty.

Keep in mind that the circuit protection needs to be sized down to the equipment that it is feeding - if you have standard receptacles, cordsets and downstream wiring, then the circuit protection needs to be sized to the lightest device on the circuit. Over here, I recommend using a sub-panel that is fed with the 60a circuit and then using the lighter-rated breakers in the sub to provide the necessary protection for the end usage.