Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[GeorgeSmiley]

No... It depends on the voltage of your timer as to what voltage you'll need for the relay coils.

That realy is a DP relay so you can switch 2 hot's. As per my light controller example, even tho I'm only using 120v ballasts, I still used both hots (MWBC) so I needed the DP relay... If you want to just use a 12/2 branch circuit and a 20A relay to run 120v ballasts, then a SP relay is what you want.

Are you running that 6/3 into a sub? You decided not to do that correct? If your still planning on building a light controller because your moving, then I would buy a subpanel rated for atleast 60A and one that has enough room to mount a relay inside.

Then you really would have a light controller such as the one that was for sale and posted back a few pages. You would have OC protection along with builtin receptacles and a 120v timer controlling a relay which in turn controlled some of the receptacles.

Okay so the timer is 120v. But the relay is also 120v. Can I still run the lights 240v?

I got a 125 amp panel, there might be room for the relay, how big is the relay?

Got my 6/3 into the crawlspace. I am still making a timer/power board but I am going to take your advice and just hard wire it properly to the sub panel. (what do you guys call a subpanel BTW?)

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Shopping

 

[bomshankar123]

hey mad penguin quick question- Assuming nothing else is on the same circuit(including other plug points) I should be fine running a 1000 watt light and like 2 small/medium fans for intake/exhaust right? I live in michigan so 120v (15 amps i believe). Also, could you recommend a suitable brand for an extension cord for this becuase ther plug point is outside the closet i am growing in the dimensions are 4 ft by 5 feet... thank u..

 

[Carter]

And since we are now on the subject, I might as well throw this out in the open before the thread progresses too much farther.

If anyone has any doubts as to how to wire something correctly, then just don't do it.

I have a real problem with some folks around here giving advice as to dismantling ballasts, transformers, variacs and the like. I don't mean to belittle anyone on this forum, but that is way beyond the ability of the average person. I realize a lot of you are technically inclined and can do such things but to give such advice and word it like it's no big deal is morally and ethically wrong. I will not be responsible for the death of any member here so I will never tell someone how to do such things. My answer will, and always will be, "return it". And on a much lesser note, you void your warranty when you do stuff like that. You paid good money for your equipment so just return the damn thing. You shouldn't be expected, as a consumer, to have to service your own electrical equipment.

In fact, I should probably quit posting electrical related topics all together. Electricity is nothing to take lightly. People under estimate residential voltage all the time. The current that a 60w light bulb draws will kill you in a heart beat. Period. If the path crosses your heart, kiss your ass goodbye. Even if it doesn't cross your heart, but you manage to get "hung up", kiss your ass goodbye.

Also, you guys should understand my frame of mind. Yes, I'm an electrician. I love my job. I don't do it for the money. I do it because I thoroughly enjoy working with electricity. I'm an anal son-of-a-bitch and I take longer to do something than your average electrical contractor. Why? Because I do things the right way, not the quick way. If your really good, you can balance both (which I have a hard time doing). Thus, I no longer sub anymore but just work for a company.

So, being the way that I am, The National Electrical Code is scripture to me. Every article in the NEC was put there because someone died. Back in the early 1900's it was a very thin book. Look at how big it is now. So, actually, me telling anyone "unqualified" (yes, it's defined in the NEC) to do work without a permit is morally and ethically wrong. The shit needs to be inspected. If you own your own home, many jurisdictions will allow the home owner to pull a permit. If you live in an apartment, you really should not be doing the work yourself. You make a mistake and you kill everyone in the building. Could you live with yourself if you made a mistake wiring your grow room and your next door neighbors 4 year old daughter burned alive in her bed? Not me.

Or get this.... Say member "kindbud69" received some advice here to swap out the capacitor on his 1000w ballast. "O.K... Sounds easy enough". So kindbud69 goes down in the basement to his grow room to get the ballast. Since he enjoys being in his grow room, he gets a chair and a collapsible TV dinner table and decides to do the work there. Chillin with the plants on a lazy Sunday afternoon, gonna fix my ballast, life is good. Set's the ballast on the table. Takes the housing off. Correctly identifies the capacitor and starts to remove it.

BAM

Kindbud69 is now laying on the floor in cardiac arrest. Too bad joeschmoe589 forgot to mention that the capacitor could very well be charged still. Even more of a shame that kindbud69 had a small hole in his left shoe sole. Worse yet, kindbud69 spilled some water when topping off his res an hour earlier and happened to have his left foot sitting on a wet and grounded surface (concrete floor).

Too bad joeschmoe589 will never know that he indirectly just killed someone. Look at the last line in my sig and ignore the smiley face. It's probably the best thing you can do if you have any hesitation as to how to do something.

Sorry for the book but I take it very seriously and you guys should to. Also, if it's not obvious yet, any and all advice that I give is based upon 120/240v 60hz American electrical systems. If you live in Europe or anywhere else (most of the world) that deals with different voltages or frequencies, then you probably shouldn't be listening to me.

Now you've got my attention MadP! Guys, do listen to what this mad bird has to say, from the few posts I've read he's giving it to you straight. I've cracked a 6, jumbo bag o' popcorn and I'm gonna go through this whole thread. This is fascinating stuff. As an English sparky i've had no experience of US wiring standards and installation method/practices and this is just what I wanted to find, real 'hands on' contracting electricians working to code.

I can see i've got a shed load of jargon to work out and find the UK equivalents of but I'm looking forward to seeing how you boys do it.

Receptacle = socket outlet
"Ampacity" = ??? current carrying capacity (love it, ...ampacity'! )
back stabbing?? = it means scurrilous rumour mongering in the UK!

Some of your standard practices leave me staring at the jpeg and thinking "???... surely not??..." F'rinstance, bare unsheathed Earth conductors (ground wires?) permitted inside distribution boards? WTF!? In the UK that equals a monumental fail and crowds will spontaneously gather round to point, laugh, take pictures and humiliate the person responsible across the electrical forums.

Here we have to use green/yellow slip-on sheathing to totally obviate any possibility of phase to earth contact. Basically in the over-regulated UK you can pretty much shove your hand intoany distribution cabinet with very little chance of receiving a shock they're that well 'ingress protected' nowadays.

Recent changes to the UK 'regs' mean that pretty much EVERY newly installed domestic final sub-circuit must now be protected by a Residual Current Device (RCD) which equates to your GFCI (Grnd Fault Current Interrupter?)

As as an aside and in addition, the fucking European Union in concert with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister have stitched up the electrical industry and put it under the control of a ceaseless avalanche of 'Elf 'n Safety wonks, training providers, certification and inspection agencies and their bagmen. All in all a right royal cluster-fuck! Sounds to me from skimming your posts that you feel that the same regime is on its way to you.

I'm going to enjoy reading this thread so expect me to chip in some feedback and questions as they arise.

 

[madpenguin]

Okay so the timer is 120v. But the relay is also 120v. Can I still run the lights 240v?

Sure. As long as the relay is double pole. Go back and look at how I hooked mine up.

I got a 125 amp panel, there might be room for the relay, how big is the relay?

Not very big. You could fit quite a few relays in that QO panel.

Got my 6/3 into the crawlspace. I am still making a timer/power board but I am going to take your advice and just hard wire it properly to the sub panel. (what do you guys call a subpanel BTW?)

Yea. I noticed you got a 60A disconnect switch. That's pretty fuckin anal but I like it....

Technically, you don't need one because the "loadcenter" or Main Lug Only Loadcenter is located in the same structure as the main panel. There is a 6 throw rule to de-energize the entire panel. Go to your main panel and flip one 60A breaker and the sub is dead. But..... I still like the disconnect right next to it.

 

[madpenguin]

Shopping

It looks like you might have gotten the wrong double gang boxes. Those look like 4 square junction boxes to me. Also, those nylon plate covers are going to fit like shit on those handy boxes (when you get the right ones).... Go for the metal plate covers and make sure you ground to the back of each handy box. Go get some green grounding screws. 10-32's if I'm not mistaken.

You could probably even find a single gang metal decor plate for the timer. Atleast I'm pretty sure they make them.

Throw that long green screw away with the paper around it and buy a ground bar kit too, but I'm sure you already knew that. Looks like there are 2 screw holes already right underneath the hot bus bars for a ground kit. Right above the mounting holes.

QO Panels are nice. Good choice.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I bought a 120vac DPST 30A relay.....?

The disconnect was $7 figured I could use it for that or I could rip the guts and use the box to hold the flip relay and put a green light on it

I got the wrong boxes gotta go back tomorrow. I was just going to get some metallic conduit to feed the gang boxes from the panel. Do I need 1/2 or 3/4 conduit?


I should have ordered a second timer for the veg lights to save shipping...... live and learn.

Cheers
GS

 

[madpenguin]

hey mad penguin quick question- Assuming nothing else is on the same circuit(including other plug points) I should be fine running a 1000 watt light and like 2 small/medium fans for intake/exhaust right? I live in michigan so 120v (15 amps i believe). Also, could you recommend a suitable brand for an extension cord for this becuase ther plug point is outside the closet i am growing in the dimensions are 4 ft by 5 feet... thank u..

Yea, that's pretty close tho. It really depends on how much amperage the fans draw. Without knowing that, I can't say for sure.

If your forced to use an extension cord, try to go back quite a few pages and look at that industrial extension cord I made. Buy atleast 12/3 "heavy Duty" extension cord. Can't really condone running with just the extension cord because you have several items you need to plug into it which is going to make things even worse because then your going to use some kind of adapter....

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

In your post here you used stranded wire for everything. I want to know if I can just remove the sheathing of some of the 12/3 I have and use those instead of buying stranded.... cool? Can I still use crimp terminals on solid copper?

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I couldn't wait... went back to the store and played around tonight.,

I posted more pics in my thread in my signature

 

[madpenguin]

I bought a 120vac DPST 30A relay.....?

Yea... That's the same relay I used. It seems you may be confused about how to employ the relay.., no?

I was just going to get some metallic conduit to feed the gang boxes from the panel. Do I need 1/2 or 3/4 conduit?

1/2" is what you want if your going to use EMT. Make sure you ream your cuts and use set screw or compression connectors (not those NM clamps). Also, you'll need to use individual THHN conductors and not romex.

 

[madpenguin]

In your post here you used stranded wire for everything. I want to know if I can just remove the sheathing of some of the 12/3 I have and use those instead of buying stranded.... cool? Can I still use crimp terminals on solid copper?

You can..... It's actually THHN but code wise it's illegal because the wire rating is not marked on the insulation.... It's the same wire as individual THHN, it just isn't marked on the insulation.

BTW, that control board looks sweet as hell.

Can't wait till you get it secured and wired....

 

[madpenguin]

If you want to return that 60A disconnect, you can buy a QO 60A DP breaker and tie your incoming red and black wires onto that. Then insert the breaker into one of the top slots. That will give you a main disconnect if you feel like having one.

Kinda nice being able to kill the panel right there instead of having to go back to the main.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Yea... That's the same relay I used. It seems you may be confused about how to employ the relay.., no?

1/2" is what you want if your going to use EMT. Make sure you ream your cuts and use set screw or compression connectors (not those NM clamps). Also, you'll need to use individual THHN conductors and not romex.

I understand how to employ the relay but keep getting confused about the 120/240 voltage of the timer/relay and lights. 120 timer, 120 relay but I want my lights 240.
Then didn't think about that I need another relay and timer for the veg side. With everything else I'm building that one keep tripping me up.

I bought some BX and and connectors to hook the boxes up but not the look I was going for.... I hate it but I have to go return it. 4 trips 2 days.

You can..... It's actually THHN but code wise it's illegal because the wire rating is not marked on the insulation.... It's the same wire as individual THHN, it just isn't marked on the insulation.

BTW, that control board looks sweet as hell.

Can't wait till you get it secured and wired....

Thanks, I appreciate that. In a perfect world it should have your logo on it,

If you want to return that 60A disconnect, you can buy a QO 60A DP breaker and tie your incoming red and black wires onto that. Then insert the breaker into one of the top slots. That will give you a main disconnect if you feel like having one.

Kinda nice being able to kill the panel right there instead of having to go back to the main.

The panel is supposed to be convertible from Main lug to Main breaker but I don't see any way a main breaker can be attached where they have the knockout in the cover.... just as you said, would have to use the top of one of the phases for a mains.


Couple things

The only 6-20r duplex 240 receptacle that I can find is made in "almond" so that's why I went with the singles because they're white. I was really bummed I couldn't get them in orange.

So far I've spent well over $200 on this. and it's a gonna get worse

You're right.... after 15 years of using terminals installing car stereo in my 20's this ratchet crimper is the nuts (BTW I always buy nice tools, but for this, $14.99 at harbor freight.) Works as well as I'll ever need.

I'll have an assload more questions but I'll save em up

Cheers
GS

 

[clstclandestine]

Last one.... I think I'm caught up...

Well... Your options are numerous. Don't know if I'd mess around with the stove. You can but.... I wouldn't... Tap off that 20A circuit and run a line right above the grow room in the attic.

This is probably what I would do....

Get up in the attic above the light fixture. Fish a 14/2 from the light fixture down into the one of the walls of your grow room. "Old work it". I've got a post on this sticky about old working circuits. Do the same thing with the 20A circuit in the kitchen only use 12/2 if it's truely a 20A circuit. Run that line down into the same wall cavity as the 14/2. Use a double gang old work box. Fish the 14/2 in one side and the 12/2 in the other side. Hook the 14/2 up to a regular blue backed cooper 49 cent receptacle. Hook the 12/2 up to a spec grade 20A receptacle. It will have the little horizontal slash in one of the plug inserts.

So now you have a double gang box that looks really nice and part of the house with 2 receptacles in it.

Make 2 of those industrial looking extension cords I posted a couple pages back and hook your equipment into those.

I thought I was there...If only it were that easy!

There was a small kitchen fire in the lower apartment about a year ago and the main panel was upgraded from fuses to breakers. Fuses being the main reason I had not set up previously.

 

[clstclandestine]

Going by the breakers in the panel there is a 165amps of potential draw pulling from a 100amp main. I guess the hardwired water and forced air heaters do not use all of the amperage on their circuits but would they really underate the main in the hopes one never chose to use that much amperage? I am assuming the work would've needed to be inspected.

40A range 15A basement lights
20A entire kitchen 15A double pole water heater
15A living rm,bath,bd. rm 15A heater
15A hall,bath, bd rm. 30A double pole dryer
and pantry socket

The existing wiring ran upto the second floor is spread pretty thin already not to metion it is all tube cloth. I don't think it is up to the task no matter how I try to run it!

 

[clstclandestine]

I could still use the socket in the closet to power a few accesories but I don't think I want to ask the old wiring to carry a 12A continuous load.

Options.....There is still the 40A range circuit "old wiring" already ran. Then there is the 15A receptacle circuit in the basement which is "new work" and the 30A dryer circuit which is old work.

By reading the thread I already know you are going to tell me to break the basement connections and run dedicated circuits with new romex directly from the main and I don't disagree. I'm just not sure how the hell to get the wiring upstairs?? I'm pretty sure this was a single family unit converted into a duplex at some point so there is retro fit or the builders were unorthodoxed who knows!

 

[clstclandestine]

There is an old laundry chute in my bathroom that goes to the basement that was blocked off at basement level at somepoint. That may be my best bet if there is no obstruction. I'd only have 5-6 ft of wall cavity to deal with if I can swing that. There is also a pocket in the basement underneath the stairs that lead up to my apartment but I don't really like that.

The attic is about an inch of blown insulation with fiber glass rolled out on top so it's not going to be real easy to locating the top sills to get into the wall cavaties.

 

[clstclandestine]

At the end of the day I'm trying to run 400w veg/600w flower in their own sealed environments. I'm using the kitchen as a lung room and will only change air as dictated by temp and humidity. I don't know why I got so elaborate with a grow I know I will be abandoning within a year or so....damn engineer in me! Stealth is important for everyone!

Not sure why it's cutting my posts so short, I appologize if I am giving too much detail

Not sure if I'm running 18/6 or 24/7 for veg. I'm thinking fluctuations in attic temps throughout the seasons will force me to run 24/7 in the fall to keep flowering room temps up. As low as 56 degrees with lights and ducting up" holes unsealed as of yet". Probably have to extend the fan cord as it will be mounted in the attic but thats not a big deal.

 

[clstclandestine]

With out changing any air. Closed vent and door, no equipment heat. I'd like to run the veg light and the hood fan on the same timer right away to allow for flexibility. In the winter the needless fan operation would turn the whole place in to a refrigerator.

There will also be a 24hr circulation fan,24hr air pump, two water pumps on a repeat cycle 1min. on 5min. off "1cloner/1veg and possible co2. I'm not sure where the Co2 will fit yet? It's getting tight!