Grow Automation and Industrial / Computerized Systems Controls

[drgr33nuk]

Interesting communication protocol.

However, the interference that I was referring to was on the front end of the sensor where it is much more difficult to work around. Any device that is going to be capable of sensing environmental change has to be analog. Additionally, most of these are only going to vary a few millivolts/milliamps between the desired setting and the point where corrective action needs to be implemented. Digital ballasts pushing HID lamps are a perfect high-power noise source with a broadcast antennae attached. If the sensors are wireless, they are that much more vulnerable because there is no way to shield them via a ground.

There are many ways to do workarounds, and I have no doubt that these issues can be worked out - eventually. Early adopters need to plan on changing out hardware as new generations come along, and to realize that they are almost assured of having some disastrous consequences along the way. Pioneers take it in the wallet.

I also don't see a large enough market for this gear to really expedite it's development. The segment of growers that are willing to play with their profitability, have money available that they are willing to invest in this technology, and have the technical savvy to make these systems work is pretty small. This site probably has some of the more knowledgeable growers around, but the vast majority of them have a very dim understanding of electrical installations. The current nature of the business works heavily against considering a long-term ROI. For most people to consider it, this gear needs to be pretty bulletproof. All of this is changing, but it's going to be a while before we get there, I think.

Trouble with me is I think everyone is a geek

 

[rives]

Spending a little time on here helping out in the electrical thread will quickly change your mind on that one!

 

[The Meadows]

Hello all,

With wire runs that long, do you not see and signal bounce or significant voltage drops?

minds_I

The max length on a single run is about 50' and no issues. I do have a bit of oscillation on one of the temperature/humidity sensors that I'm attributing to poor soldering or cable. Most of the runs have shielding which is grounded at one end. I twist or braid the extensions. Running within a few feet of a couple digital ballasts don't have a measurable effect. Never had issues with relays flipping or not flipping.

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Yeah digital ballasts and 1-wire have issues. However proper shielding can make the difference from what I have read.

At the moment, I have cable runs of just a few inches as its still a prototype.

The sensor network is not the big obstacle for me its the UI.

minds_I

 

[Ttystikk]

I think that you will find that anyone who has a background in industrial control applications is going to be pretty skeptical about wireless control at a price point that will work for private consumers. The subtle nature of the changes that we are trying to monitor makes the sensors very susceptible to interference from things like HID ballasts, nearby electronics, poor grounding systems, variations in supply voltage, etc, etc.

In an industrial environment, you have both the physical infrastructure and the personnel to support sophisticated controls, as well as a customer that is accustomed to paying eye-popping prices for equipment. Going from wired connections to wireless ratchets up all of the critical design parameters. For example, when you have a signal that only varies a fraction of a volt across it's full range, then you place the sensor in close proximity to a high-frequency, high-voltage noise source, the last thing that you want to do is eliminate the possibility of using grounded shielding.

Their product is a great idea in theory, but reality can be a real bitch.

Part of progress is reducing price of available technology to broaden its utility. I think it's high time that 'prohibitively expensive for the hobby consumer' gets a lot more affordable- and I see no reason why industrial controls can't follow some semblance of Moore's Law, seeing how they too are merely computers in a fancy box.

There isn't anything about industrial PLC that isn't amenable to economies of scale. The guy (founder and part owner) I spoke with at Smartbeecontrollers knew this, and that's why he's spent the last three years building the system based on industrial PLC software. IIRC, he called it 'Zorbalink'.

He was apparently one of the customers who didn't get a lot of support from Growtronix and felt he could do better. The single biggest gripe about Growtronix is interference from high frequency RF sources, like digital ballasts. I'm certain he's found a way to mitigate/solve that issue.

In addition, he was proud of the fact that EVERY wireless smart bee device is its own wireless network repeater, giving the system an unprecedented level of resistance to RF and other electronic interference that actually gets stronger the more devices get connected to it.

I'm aware of the skepticism inherent in our industry, and it's generally healthy and necessary to keep outrageous and blatantly false claims made about expensive gear in check. On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of hard-working people who bust their ass to add real value to our industry every day. Let's wait to bash on a new product until we actually have the chance to see it work. We'll have more credibility that way, too. -If anyone still cares about that.

 

[rives]

Actually, I haven't been "bashing" anything - I've been relating my experience based on three decades of industrial control work, and some of the accompanying hard lessons.

You are completely mistaken in thinking that industrial PLCs are "merely computers in a fancy box". While they are indeed computers, they are built with the highest grade components available, most of which carry a mil spec rating. I mentioned earlier that I did my first PLC installation in 1981 and the same processor, with the same I/O, was still running the same equipment, 24/7/365, 20+ years later. This was in an unconditioned space that saw temperatures as low as -25 in the winter and 110+ in the summer. In that period of time, there wasn't a single need to re-boot or perform any of the usual crap that we've come to accept as normal with PCs.

PLC's initially came out of the auto industry, where downtime can cost 10's of thousands of dollars per minute, and the purchase price of control equipment is rendered academic as a result. That level of quality doesn't lend itself well to economies of scale.

Aside from the quality of the components, the big difference that I see between consumer-level controls and PLCs is that the consumer equipment is going to need a friendly way of programing it - very few consumers are going to be willing to learn a machine or brand-specific language. GUI's have become an expected standard, and with their implementation comes the inevitable giant leap in program size and complexity. This leads, equally inevitably, to the inherent, self-compounding, programming errors that force you to reboot your PC at frequent intervals.

As I pointed out earlier, I see less of a potential for problems with the communication side of the wireless sensors than with their analog front end.

I wish anyone that is trying to get into this market the best of luck, but from an educated consumer viewpoint, I think that we are still very much in the development mode.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Interesting thoughts on RFI from digital ballasts. I too am having some issues with my nutrient monitors.

Does anybody have a solution for the noise?.. I was looking into farday cages, but im not sure what is the correct use for those cages. Is that used around the ballasts or around my equipment, or both?.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Actually, I haven't been "bashing" anything - I've been relating my experience based on three decades of industrial control work, and some of the accompanying hard lessons.

You are completely mistaken in thinking that industrial PLCs are "merely computers in a fancy box". While they are indeed computers, they are built with the highest grade components available, most of which carry a mil spec rating. I mentioned earlier that I did my first PLC installation in 1981 and the same processor, with the same I/O, was still running the same equipment, 24/7/365, 20+ years later. This was in an unconditioned space that saw temperatures as low as -25 in the winter and 110+ in the summer. In that period of time, there wasn't a single need to re-boot or perform any of the usual crap that we've come to accept as normal with PCs.

PLC's initially came out of the auto industry, where downtime can cost 10's of thousands of dollars per minute, and the purchase price of control equipment is rendered academic as a result. That level of quality doesn't lend itself well to economies of scale.

Aside from the quality of the components, the big difference that I see between consumer-level controls and PLCs is that the consumer equipment is going to need a friendly way of programing it - very few consumers are going to be willing to learn a machine or brand-specific language. GUI's have become an expected standard, and with their implementation comes the inevitable giant leap in program size and complexity. This leads, equally inevitably, to the inherent, self-compounding, programming errors that force you to reboot your PC at frequent intervals.

As I pointed out earlier, I see less of a potential for problems with the communication side of the wireless sensors than with their analog front end.

I wish anyone that is trying to get into this market the best of luck, but from an educated consumer viewpoint, I think that we are still very much in the development mode.

1981 ! I was born that year

 

[rives]

1981 ! I was born that year

You young whippersnapper!

I got to thinking about it - that machine was originally programmed with a handheld read/write loader, but shortly afterward I convinced the company to buy a computer to do programming and documentation with. It was top-of-the-line gear - a KayPro portable with a 9" CRT, (2) 5.25" floppies (no hard drive), and CP/M was the operating system. DRDOS was an option, but looked to be a poor choice because CP/M held a vastly larger portion of the market share.

Damn I'm getting old!

 

[rives]

Interesting thoughts on RFI from digital ballasts. I too am having some issues with my nutrient monitors.

Does anybody have a solution for the noise?.. I was looking into farday cages, but im not sure what is the correct use for those cages. Is that used around the ballasts or around my equipment, or both?.

You could do the caging route with either or both.

First, I would check the ground integrity of your power system and the connected equipment.

Second, try physical separation of the components and their associated wiring. If the wiring has to be in close proximity to one another, try to eliminate anyplace where they parallel one another - crossing at 90-degrees is much more forgiving. Running the wire through grounded conduit may also be beneficial.

Third, it may not be RF, it may be the ballasts feeding back onto the power line and disrupting it. They are basically high-frequency switching power supplies and can put a lot of crap back on the line. At a minimum, the equipment needs to be on separate circuits, and if possible, separate sub-panels would be a good idea. A small isolation transformer or perhaps a quality UPS to feed the metering might help.

If all else fails, sacrificing a goat in the light of a full moon is usually the last step.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

You could do the caging route with either or both.

First, I would check the ground integrity of your power system and the connected equipment.

Second, try physical separation of the components and their associated wiring. If the wiring has to be in close proximity to one another, try to eliminate anyplace where they parallel one another - crossing at 90-degrees is much more forgiving. Running the wire through grounded conduit may also be beneficial.

Third, it may not be RF, it may be the ballasts feeding back onto the power line and disrupting it. They are basically high-frequency switching power supplies and can put a lot of crap back on the line. At a minimum, the equipment needs to be on separate circuits, and if possible, separate sub-panels would be a good idea. A small isolation transformer or perhaps a quality UPS to feed the metering might help.

If all else fails, sacrificing a goat in the light of a full moon is usually the last step.

I've already done something similar to this, kept my lines from crossing keeping my ballast away from the sensitive equipment. I still get some glitches..

Good call on the AC line conditioner, Im about to put in some spendy equipment I might as well keep the power clean . I think I can put the meters on it too.

I might try the conduit, I assume all conduit is roughly the same for RFI shielding? I'll go with EMT first..

Im outta goats.. um can I just draw a pentagram on the ground with some ketchup?.

 

[rives]

I would think that any metallic conduit would be roughly the same. EMT would also be my choice. Insure that it has a good ground, though.

Another thought - are the leads between your sensors and the metering shielded cable, and if so, is it grounded on one end?

The ketchup pentagram may be worth a try, but there is really nothing like a goat.

 

[hvac guy]

I love it- smart bee controllers aren't even on the market, no idea how they work and some wag here is already heaping scorn upon it. Yeah, not putting much stock in THAT opinion, nevermind the fool who said it.

I'll bash on it once it comes out and fails to live up to expectations.

Really though, I suspect they will become another option in a rising tide of smart indoor agriculture controllers. At this point, they seem to have their heads on straight and they're focusing on the right people; US!

Calling me a fool, you're the fool, those units are CRAP. You obviously know nothing about quality electronic devices, they are just like the ones that we suppose to come out last year by the company that makes the Phototron

 

[hvac guy]

Just like these guys were going to revolutionize environmental controllers lol;
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/239113061438013102/
https://www.elance.com/samples/sg-sensors-product-range/82449862/


They are defunct.

 

[watts]

Anyone know much about this little device or any input?

http://www.powerboxinc.com/6channeltimer.html

POWERBOX 6-CHANNEL TIMER

I like how you could control pumps from your couch or when travelling.

 

[Highdroponic]

I just got off the phone with these guys;

http://smartbeecontrollers.com

They are building it, but they aren't shipping it yet, it seems they have some software work yet to finish up before the launch coming this September.

I had a long talk with one of the principals, he basically said that Growtronix was their product benchmark, that they were building a system to be better than it is in every way.

Wireless, user oriented programming interface, sensors don't even need to be plugged in as they'll use power from solar cells on the device, it's an industrial systems based network node platform, so high rf interference environments won't affect it as much. They have lots of new products they want to roll out after the main box is introduced this fall. He spoke of many friends in the business...

Did I not just say a few posts above that THE MARKET IS LISTENING?! This guy is, and I can't wait to see what he's got!

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

Hold onto your ass, kids- it's the new Internet.

I saw these guys at the Maximum Yield Indoor Garden Expo and saw the system in action. The iPad interface and set-up doesn't seem to change anything I don't do already and can be set up in a an existing garden. For me, it's more about having a babysitter in my grow room when I'm not there. I've lost more money to crop loss and what I come into the next morning after some timer or other equipment fails. The alerting system, if these guys can do what they say they can do, will let me know about problems in real time.

 

[Ttystikk]

I saw these guys at the Maximum Yield Indoor Garden Expo and saw the system in action. The iPad interface and set-up doesn't seem to change anything I don't do already and can be set up in a an existing garden. For me, it's more about having a babysitter in my grow room when I'm not there. I've lost more money to crop loss and what I come into the next morning after some timer or other equipment fails. The alerting system, if these guys can do what they say they can do, will let me know about problems in real time.

The conversion I had with them included their desire to build robustness into the system at all levels; they said that every wireless component is its own network node- so the more components there are, even if different rooms, the better connected everything is.

 

[b0nZai.b0b]

u can have a look of plc LOGO! in my diary, it´s just first wiring/programming without sensoring heat or rlf just switch on lamps lti an fans in a better way than regular timeswitches and the best thing is, if u decide to go with an plc system u can rise the dimension of it, with extra modules, sensors, etc pp., step by step

i can´t w8 2 check my electrobox with ballasts i also wan´t to automate an hydro system with it in future, everything is possible, that was the final reason y i decided to go plc



edit: the logo! plc is quiet an economic system, i spent 90€ for used mainunit and powergear, it´s definitly affordeable and good investion

 

[FromHolland]

Some Dutch toys (I wish I could afford)

https://www.growin.de/tps-hp2-mit-6-dosierpumpen.html

It's an automatic fertilizer computer it checks and adjusts the pH, EC (by adding nutes) and water level. A friend of me had one of these together with a Co2 unit on cocos he got 1.45gram per watt.

An another sexy toy is the Opticlimate, I think it's way to big and not practical in a small growroom.

http://opticlimateshop.com/nl/optic...-opticlimate-15000-pro-3-24x600w-35x400w.html

It's basically a computer which has a build in heater, airco, de/humidifier, build-in carbon filter, Co2 support, timer for the bulbs, the option to set the variables such as temp, ppm during night/day.

I think it is possible to create them yourself with the proper knowledge but I guess no one is willing to do that. If I only had the knowledge

 

[Highdroponic]

The conversion I had with them included their desire to build robustness into the system at all levels; they said that every wireless component is its own network node- so the more components there are, even if different rooms, the better connected everything is.

SmartBee is kinda lagging on hitting the market, now targeting for release in March. I really want of these, so I called over and talked to their Chief Product Officer, who said the hold-up was in part to the idea that they were originally going with an iPad app, but then iOS8 came out which kind of gummed up their timeline. They're switching over to a web-based control interface, so you can access with any web-connected device.