Greek Kalamata - Identify Lineage

[l33t]

hello all

Firstly let me say I have been growing and smoking marijuana for a long time now . When I started smoking cannabis I could only get hold of outdoor pure sativa buds for most of the times...I was introduced to indoor buds few years back.. The best strain I have smoked was Greek Kalamata ... Too trippy , but at the same time clear high ,gives you 'cinematic vision' , the effect is elevation , like you are flying and you can't stop laughing with this thing .
Very motivational too. Also the potency is very high , meaning the amount you have to take to get the desired effect .It distorts time and hearing as well , its not very long lasting , high lasts about 1 and half hour or so , but the high profile is very special.

Now, before some years I started growing my own cannabis but I was highly disappointed by most landrace sats and the new world/dutch hybrids I tried... and let me tell you I have tried quite a few of them... c99/super silver haze/white widow/kali mist/a11/SourDiesel/Blueberry/Afghani/Skunk etc..etc ... Some of them are indeed very potent tasty n and special but nothing could match the high profile from the strain named Kalamata . I had been smoking the kalamata strain for quite some time... so I dont think my point of view is biased. One strain that really reminds me Kalamata in terms of high not taste or smell , it's Nevilles Haze , so I believe the Kalamata strain perhaps has its ancesty in Thai or maybe Colombian genetics... I have many Kalamata seeds but I havent grown them yet , due to the reason I am not sure if it is the real deal and I cant afford a bad crop(low yield/low potency) at the moment .

Well basically I am looking for your help .... please help me identify where do you think this strain has its roots . Does it indeed remind you of SouthEastAsian sativas , or maybe Colombian sativas ? I am pretty sure ,even if they are coming from SEAsian genetics , today they are not the same , as the Kalamata needs no more than 14 weeks to finish , so this suggests that it has been acclimatized ( or selected by the farmers ) to the Greek weather and has been grown for a long time.

Thank you very much for taking the time to identify this legendary strain.

( I also know that these pics are not of the highest quality.. but it is enough to see the bud and leaf structure )

Kalamata in mid flowering....
(both pics plants were NOT grown by me)

 

[darthvapor]

wow shes definitely a sexy sativa. Looks like nothing I have ever grown. I want to know more about her too. Ive never seen leaves so long and thin like that.

 

[Herbalistic]

That is nice looking sativa. I have only heard, that Kalamata is landrace from Greek, but nothing from it´s ancestors. It´s very hard to solve the exact heritage, because it´s been cultivated so long and everybody looks it as a native landrace...

However, the budstructure reminds me of African sativas, with those fluffy pistil pushing buds. I can understand why you think it got thai in it´s heritage when looking those leaves!

Enjoy your Kalamata l33t! Have you thought making more beans and send them growers worldwide, so it´s going to be preserved (at least with small genepool)

 

[l33t]

Hey herbalistic thanks for dropping by

These plants are not mine , it is my friends...

I indeed think I can see some African genes in these(Malawi Gold or Durban Poison). The only problem is that I havent smoked these plants I show you pics and I dont know if they are the same Kalamata I am talking about ... so I cannot vouch for their authenticity ... I have smoked many "supposedly" Kalamata for over ten years and only some of them were true Kalamata with the legendery high .... I have seeds from Kalamata but most of them were gifted so , again , I cannot vouch for their authenticity , I will have to grow them to tell for sure before sending them to a reputable breeder for preservation but I thought it would be nice to get some opinions... By the way I have posted a link ( my first post ) with a video from many kalamata plants ( grown locally ) ... please have a look at the video and tell me what you think...

Do you guys see any resemblance with this Durban Poison ( not grown by me ) ?

Maybe the leaf detail of this pure colombian [ props to albous ]

 

[JimmyEatWorld]

l33t,

Nice to see these pictures again!

14 weeks flowering indoors ?
My speculation about Greek strains,which i believe its the most accurate,after some reading is that their origin is Turkey,Middle East.As hashish production began with immigrants coming from Cyprus,Egypt,Syria in the mid-late 19th century, strains from these areas most have also came and adopt here. Keep in mind that strains from these countries are not C.Indica, there all C.Sativa. Dont also forget that original Turkish hashish could be very cerebral.

About African germ plasm, i really dont know.A lot of growers are growing imported varietes from the late 1980s (in my experience), so who knows ? Last autumn i saw some freshly harvested buds from a "Columbian" and "African" variety grown here in Greece.The African was a Swazi. But both were immature,leafy. They can mature here,but the growers cannot wait that long.

Nice to see a thread like that here

 

[l33t]

I have seen your posts before about saying that Greek cannabis plants are originating from Turkey and middle east ... which is not the case in my opinion . I have never seen a landrace Turkish Cannabis sativa ( or never reported by a reputable source ) , only Turkish indicas . Perhaps I am wrong but please dont quote the book from Robert Clarke ... he was not there... and perhaps he has never smoked Greek landrace sativa like most of the reputable breeders . And he actually speaks for the 18 century and after... Greek sativas are way older... Don't really trust the book you read ... its pretty much made from some Historical facts ( like invasion from Turks etc.. ) but they have little connection to the Cannabis cultuvation in previous centurys... Landrace Greek Sativas from Thraki are reported by Herodotes around 400BC to be some of the best .. Most landrace Turkish cannabis plants are indica and they coma from Pakistan and nearby areas from what I know.

What you have to understand is that Kalamata and Crete have significant ports and they were major cultural exchange centres / trade centers ( if that makes sense ) ... I mean that many ships came from all over the known world to trade for different products ( which makes sense that cannabis seeds were exchanged aswell ) . So if you are looking for facts ... try to find reports from those days ... Robert Clarke speak s for 18-19 century and basically for hash ( not weed ) , as far as Greek hash is concerned ... which is only a page from the big book of history .. Btw I have never heard of landrace Cannabis Sativa in either Turkey ,Middle East , Cyprus , Egypt nor Syria . I need to see some facts and photos

I am pretty sure in Kalamata or Crete you can finish plants even in Feb/March.... I have read that many Colombian seeds were brought to Crete . Even bananas can be cultivated in Crete... Crete has the lowest latitude in Europe and is the same as Maroco / Tunisia etc... So I dont see what you mean that you cannot finish properly a pure Colombian sativa...

Btw do you know that Cannabis is a greek word mate ? It originates from Thraki ... and btw Greeks were the first European civilization to have spreaded almost all over the known-world at BC times , so it is quite logical that they brought seeds from the places like Africa and Asia.

have fun friend

I also found this pic again from albous ( Colombian sativa )

I find the leaves pretty similar ... What do you guys think ?

 

[Guest]

Very cool post!!!!!

Wish i could help,that sativa looks great and i
would love to try some in my tropical climate?

For those who know i post over at PG at the greek forum!(BLG)
This is my blood and i love greece it has the BEST climate for
humans living on earth,clean dry,warm,fresh,beautifull and most
folks have a REAL heart with very close families not to mention
the NEVER ENDING HISTORY no one can match PERIOD!!

Had some folks say they would send me some before my dad died??
Never happened......

Oh' that high you decsribe sounds like the old days friend!!
A REAL HIGH that takes you up floating out of your chair.....
body also not just head, oh those old days!
Yah i have tried lots of new shot too some good but NOT the true
thick float you away weed of the old days.......

THanks for the story and i hope it is real GREEK GENES!!
The weed does NOT look like columbian,looks like a south american
gene i have?....but the buds are not tight to the main stem like yours?
Anyway good luck,good thread!

 

[l33t]

Hey Lougrew!

Thank you very much for your reply.You re right about Greece

So any pics of the strain you have that looks like kalamata? :smile:

 

[Guest]

Maybe i have a pic l33t....

Maybe i have a pic l33t....

Lets see?

sorry l33t thought i have a better close up?
You can see the leaf in the bottom pic...
But i would say my plant is a more creeper style?

 

[l33t]

Yes I can see a resemblance in the leaf detail... especially in your last pic... But the second pic doesnt really resemble the plant structure and leaf distribution . Can you please have a look at the video link I posted in my first post and tell me what you think ? There are full plant shots outdoor grown from different stages ... I know the quality is not the best but you can get an idea of how they grow in their natural environment ( youtube requires an account , because this video is censored )

btw do you find any resemblance to african strains ? The reason I am saying this is because Kalamata strain finishes under 10-14 weeks and many african strains are fast finishers too...

Thanks again for taking the time to post the pics

 

[l33t]

Ok forget about the video I posted in the my first post ... I found the same pics that are shown on the video . So here they are higher resolution ...

Btw these may be not Kalamata but similar variations of Greek strains

 

[Guest]

Nice shots!!

Like the second to last pic,they look very close
to mine when done the skinnier leafed one to the right!
There may be colombian in them too?...the ones to left?
WHAT A CLIMATE!!....no mold is my dream!

 

[l33t]

Yes I can see the resemblance to your strain....What exactly is this south american strain you mention ? Brazilian sativa ? do you have any more info on it?

Here is one more pic of a colombian sativa I saw ( NOT grown by me ) . The leaf looks quite similar to my first posts two pics from what I see.... What do you think ?




By the way many Greek strains like Kalamata have a pine / lemon smell , very different to some of the african strains I ve smoked which had earthy/woody tastes .
I hope someone very experienced with many different landrace sativas can also help exclude some strains that are very different and dont seem to have any connection to Kalamata at least from the looks and descriptions.
Any more thoughts?

 

[Afghanicus]

Very interesting topic. I love greece. I am Greek and i really didn't know that greece had its own unique strains and i wouldn't have thought that they would be sativas. I would have suspected that indicas would be more commonly grown there considering the drier summers and colder winters. I would love to get my hands on some seeds, they must be a very hardy sativa indeed. Got any more pics?

 

[JimmyEatWorld]

l33t,

Nice pictures!Pretty sad to see these nice fields with cops inside them.

Herodotus reports that in Thraki they cultivate Cannabis for fiber.All the historical facts,turn out that Greeks(ancient) knew about the euphoric properties of Cannabis but didn't use it for these purposes.

In my previous post, i should have been more specific. I dont believe that Greek varietes after WWII are of Middle East origin,but all of the Cannabis that was grown in mid-late 19th/early 20th century in Greece came with the immigrants from these areas.For hashish production. (i've come to this conclusion not just by reading R.Clarke,but also other sources from these times). For marijuana ? I know nothing about marijuana cultivation in Greece,lets say 50-60years ago. And my general impression is that the majority of cannabis drugs used in the past was hashish.

Also, i needed to be more specific about the Turkish,Middle East varietes being Sativa.I didn't use the term Sativa,the way growers use it.From the pics i've seen over the internet, Lebanese plants are not what everybody here would characterize as Indica (broad-leaves,short plant).Remember a guy at OG,who had a lebanese plant that had finished 2,5-3mts tall and not at all broad-leaves ? Check out these plants,from Sinai(Egypt,Israel) : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=902377&highlight=Sinai#post902377

Taxonomy is a tricky subject,right ? We agree on that,hehe ?

Enough with the past,to the present ..

I didn't say that you can't finish a Columbian here.I said the opposite mate.That it can mature here,but these guys couldn't wait for so long.No patience.

Kalamata and Crete have both a beautiful climate for living and growing.Nice and hot.
I look forward to meet you and have a nice chat!

Lougrew!,

Geia sou! I was the only one that replied at your thread (at the PG Greek forum) and recognize you,hehe! Good vibes over your place

 

[l33t]

Hey Afganicus!
Thank you for dropping by!Unfortunatelly I dont have any more pics of the Kalamata at the moment as I ve lost most of my archive cd I had stored my Greek sativas' pics file a year ago But I will try to find some from Kalamata or any Greek sativa and postem later.

Hey Jimmy,

How is going mate?
I know that ancient greeks didnt use to smoke cannabis eventhough they did use seeds in certain 'religious ceremonies' and perhaps used resin for pain relief or as an anesthetic like ancient Egyptians did (performed complicated surgery using ma-yo, an anesthetic made from cannabis resin and wine) as the two great ancient civilizations shared technology and science as well).But yes, like you say they cultivated Cannabis sativa mainly for hemp production for different uses.

In my previous post, i should have been more specific. I dont believe that Greek varietes after WWII are of Middle East origin,but all of the Cannabis that was grown in mid-late 19th/early 20th century in Greece came with the immigrants from these areas.For hashish production. (i've come to this conclusion not just by reading R.Clarke,but also other sources from these times). For marijuana ? I know nothing about marijuana cultivation in Greece,lets say 50-60years ago. And my general impression is that the majority of cannabis drugs used in the past was hashish.

So you are basically telling us that ALL the previous-mid-late 19th century were lost and ALL of them were replaced by immigrants for hashish production ? How do you know that Greeks didnt know how to make hash before the invasion from Turks etc ? Egypts used resins 3000BC ... The reason Greeks didnt smoke hashish and smoked pure buds is basically because Greek weed was too strong and didnt want to turn it into hash ... there was no need for hash ... Also sativas arent good hash producers and are best smoked pure . I am sure you have read that somewhere . Greek strains have been reported to have 15%~ THC and very little CBD ( which makes sense from the strains we have smoked ) .

..and how can you be certain that all of the cannabis grown in mid 19th/early 20th century in Greece was only brought from Middle East???
...There is no historical evidence for this....To me this is impossible.. and very very ..very..hard to believe.. as Crete and Kalamata had/were and still have/were significant ports .

Also, i needed to be more specific about the Turkish,Middle East varietes being Sativa.I didn't use the term Sativa,the way growers use it.From the pics i've seen over the internet, Lebanese plants are not what everybody here would characterize as Indica (broad-leaves,short plant).Remember a guy at OG,who had a lebanese plant that had finished 2,5-3mts tall and not at all broad-leaves ? Check out these plants,from Sinai(Egypt,Israel) : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=902377&highlight=Sinai#post902377

I saw this pic and I cant understand how you came to the conclusion that this strain/plant is an indica.Could you please elaborate??

The plant/leaf and flower structure on the pic in your link quite reminds of some sativas like this one for example .. first two pics)
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=36181&page=1
Don't you see a resemblance yourself?

Moreover Tripco's post mentions:
''According to some articles about "drug" use in Egypt, i found that most appreciated (Southern) Sinai strain is called Bango. It seems that it's not a pure sativa, but rather a sativa/indica.''

Apart from this speaking generally ..I do know that a certain strain can grow in a very different way..depending on the environment and location etc..So a strain can grow for example ..more compact..or more stretchy .. , ...with thiner..or broader leaves.. depending on many factors , like the climate/location and whether the strain is acclimatized or not..But I ve never experienced a strain 'go totally extreme'...
..that looks like ,..say.. NLights5(or other pure indica) when grown in a certain place.. but looks like a pure thai or indian sativa when grown in a different area...I have yet to see something like this..

Also dont forget that many counties have both indicas and sativas ...Not only a certain species/strain grows all over a country..for example Egypt may have indeed Pure Indicas and Ind/Sat strains growing in Southern Egypt.This doesnt come as a surprise to me as over the centuries different genetics may have been brought to Egypt from other areas like Central Africa etc..I hope you get my point.. Saying that... there is always a possibility that Greek strains are not TRUE sativas like lets say an EastAsian ( which takes 20 weeks to flower, Greek sativas dont need more than 14 weeks ) and maybe Greek strain is IBL from a Sativa dominant hybrid

I still dont understand how you know for sure this is Sinai strain is an indica??
How did you jump to this conclusion? Perhaps you need to think 'outside of the box' once in a while and try not to not jump to conclusions before you have examined 'both sides of the same coin'

Btw I can see NO resemblance at all from Greek strains and those Egypt/Middle-east strains you mention... Can you show me some pics to backup your theories ?

Taxonomy is a tricky subject,right ? We agree on that,hehe ?

I look forward to meet you and have a nice chat!

We definitely agree on this :wink:
--
Looking forward to meeting you too Jimmy It would be great to meet in person after all these years !
Have fun

 

[l33t]

One correction to my previous post:
cannabis was 'smoked' in certain cases in ancient Greece , this has been reported.They used to burn seeds and bud/leaf and inhaled the smoke as a part of religious ceremonies , they inhaled the smoke for its euphoric effects.This was not for everyday use though and like we said cannabis was grown for hemp/fibre/food production most of the time.

Any more thoughts on the linage?Anyone?

 

[Herbalistic]

Yeah, that Sinai landrace is definitely a sativa cultivar. While in Egypt couple years ago I found that the hash was very cerebral & strong. I think it´s common mistake to assume these North African countries produce only indica. That´s about it, we have another landrace to speak of, right?

I didnt even think about the differences in the flowerintime of Kalamata & many African sativa´s before you mentioned it It makes sense but we cannot generalize it, because there are also cultivars that take longertime...

 

[dubi]

High l33t!

Thanks for share your past experiences with this rare and curious landrace sativa. I have heard very good things about Red Kalamata and Red Crete, but i have never seen a pic or had the chance to smoke her. I'd love to do it one day.

It'd be real difficult to determine her genetic background only by the look, many sativas can share similar appearance depending on the ambiental conditions.

Old Greece was a real advanced culture and base for all the southern european cultures, they had contacts with lot of different cultures in different coasts of Mediterranean Sea .... seeds could came from Lebanon, Egypt, other parts of Africa ....

The best way to do it would be examine kalamata genome and compare her genes with other landrace sativas to try to find similarities. Landrace with the most similar genome would be the connection to know her origin. I think there are no projects analyzing cannabis genomes at the moment but should be the way to know cannabis origin, evolution and how the plant has been adapting to very different latitudes and climates.

Leaf pattern you are posting is totaly sativa, but flower ovaries look quite big and fat. How are the typical Kalamata aromas and taste?

I hope you can grow again and reproduce Red Kalamata seeds and to select for the special high you are commenting. Sounds like the sativa high everyone is looking for!

 

[Gert Lush]

Hey, nice to see all the Mediterranean "historians" gathered together!
esp. l33t, JimmyEatWorld, dubi

I can't contribute much, I don't really know much about the subject, but then again I don't think anyone does, we're playing Sherlock Holmes in pretty unexplored territory!

First, I have to agree with l33t that the Greek ganjas, esp. Kalamata (but others too) are a definite break from the Turkish influence. They're clearly not from the same source. How exactly they got there in the first place IS a mystery, and unfortunately there are NO writtten records that I know of anyway. Greek Demotic (traditional) music. has references both to Kalamata and Turkish, and it is fair to assume that they are considered separate things:
"Me founda Kalamatiani, kai mavro apo tin Brusa"
("With bud from Kalamata and black from Bursa")

The people Herodotus mentions (Scythians, BTW, and not Thracians) so we're looking even further North, possibly where modern Romania is situated. So whatever was growing there was unlikely to be an Equatorial Sativa, more likely a good hybrid adapted to colder conditions.

Crete is a really interesting factor in the equation, having been ruled by so many different peoples, including the Arabs for a while. However the most interesting reference that I have seen mentioned is that when Crete was severely depopulated in the early Medieval period, the Roman Emperor Nicephorus Phocas sent a large contigent of Thracian mercenaries to populate the island. Travellers to Crete in the 16th century mention that these people still lived in the mountain areas of Crete (i.e. the interior) where they made up the majority of the population, kept themselves to themselves, but were well-known scrappers and drinkers (possibly tokers, why not?) and were generally only called upon by the emeperor when mercenaries were needed.

So it could be that these people (I really can't see Thracians not toking :wink: ) inroduced the Ancient Balkan (Scythian/Thracian) landraces to Crete, where they adapted in the benign, warm, environment.

For Kalamata I cannot say. A very different story (and History) to Crete, perhaps there's something really good in the soil/weather there, that turned out this famous Kalamata Red.

Perhaps some Turkish Pasha had a favourite weed that he planted in the groves around his palace, who knows. However, I doubt that a strain as reknown as that appeared in the area overnight. I'd be surprised if it had a history of less than 300 years, say. We also have to remember that this area was heavily penetrated by Barbary pirates, so perhaps some African genetics found their way in there, too.

But if the genetics are SE asian, or Colombian, then gawdonlyknows how they got there. Personally, I suspect that there's a bit of Nepalese influence in there somewhere, but that's just my opinion, I haven't smoked much Kalamata myself, though I've smoked quite a bit from the north "Drama bud" (the town of Drama, silly), very electric.

====

Anyway, I'm sure that even if we can't preserve the initial genetics, with all this good will we'll definitely create something similar, hey, why not better, even?


====

PS. I also find it interesting that Andravida (not that far from Kalamata - also Peloponese, anyway) was famous for its hash, not its bud. There's a lot more to this story than we'll ever know, I guess.

PPS. @l33t - I know it's not "Kalamata", but some lebanese "white" (i.e. very pale blonde) hash I used to get back in the old days, was unbelievably electric, scary really. I wonder if perhaps some of these genetics (maybe in a lucky sport with some African) may have contributed to Kalamata.