Good defoliation side by side examples

[George]

Loads of growers who have defoliated would strongly disagree with you. You've left out massive chunks of important info such as growing style, genetics and nutrient requirements. Look above - you will see a properly run side by side that resulted is lower yields by defoliated plants. Hey so if I take you great advice and pluck the fucking things all day are you going to send me a few ounces (you know, the ounces I lost because of your great advice)???

No I’ll just laugh that you don’t know what youre doing and but also lack motivation to experiment and learn first hand? To me it just sounds like you won’t try anything, you just like being spoon fed information all day and having literally zero experience with something before calling it dumb advice. Some of us already did our own tests and we’ll continue plucking the things.

I will give you some advice so you don’t lose weight: The gaps where those leaves were that you plucked....they should be filled with new top colas, you know the ones that add real weight and quality nugs to your harvest. The branches that are thick like pencils are the ones you try to multiply. Like these LOWERS that would of been larfy crap are now ALL sellable for top dollar while I hear people crying about $1-15lbs. you can insulate your finances from the competitive <2k lb market if you put some real work in and not cry about having to pull a little leaf or sit ther twiddling thumbs talking about it instead of TRYING it.

I also have a one remaining question for you: since all these guys tried these techniques before you in order to give you this information, are YOU gonna reimburse them for THEIR losses in yields that YOU gained from? No right? Only works in one direction right?

Edit: you know what, I apologize. Maybe I shouldn’t give that type of attitude but my advice remains the same.

 

[BombBudPuffa]

If you're getting lots of larf you just need to trim better. That's not trying to be an asshole either. I don't defoliate and if I trim properly theres not any larf. Tried this tech a few times and the only thing I found it good for was opening up space. I didn't notice any yield increases, better bud density, etc just more leaf and no fans. I think it's more a whatever floats your boat thing, for real.

 

[BongFu]

No I’ll just laugh that you don’t know what youre doing and but also lack motivation to experiment and learn first hand? To me it just sounds like you won’t try anything, you just like being spoon fed information all day and having literally zero experience with something before calling it dumb advice. Some of us already did our own tests and we’ll continue plucking the things.

I will give you some advice so you don’t lose weight: The gaps where those leaves were that you plucked....they should be filled with new top colas, you know the ones that add real weight and quality nugs to your harvest. The branches that are thick like pencils are the ones you try to multiply. Like these LOWERS that would of been larfy crap are now ALL sellable for top dollar while I hear people crying about $1-15lbs. you can insulate your finances from the competitive <2k lb market if you put some real work in and not cry about having to pull a little leaf or sit ther twiddling thumbs talking about it instead of TRYING it.

I also have a one remaining question for you: since all these guys tried these techniques before you in order to give you this information, are YOU gonna reimburse them for THEIR losses in yields that YOU gained from? No right? Only works in one direction right?

Edit: you know what, I apologize. Maybe I shouldn’t give that type of attitude but my advice remains the same.

Lets go back to the original question shall we


Good defoliation side by side examples

Hello, I hate to even open this can of worms, but can anyone share links to well run (clones, done at the same time with same conditions) side by sides with defoliation vs. without? It seems like every one I find on the internet either A.) Shows no difference in yield or worse yield from the defoliated ones or B.) Has a guy all gung-ho about his experiment at first that never finishes it and posts the final yield differences between the two.

It seems lots of people defoliate, but I don't see a lot of data that supports doing it. I don't care one way or the other, I just want to see the experiments so I can judge on my own

So what the question is (stripped down) I don't want opinions but scientific evidence that shows defoliation improves yields or otherwise. Also the question was has anyone actually done a decent side by side that can be trusted? I.e. where the methodology wasn't flawed. I think I answered that.

Meantime we have these wannabes chime in with their half arsed opinions based on their ignorance (i.e. no formal qualifications in plant science and a total lack of understanding of the subject) who feel they just have to pass on their shit bird opinions which were made largely because they are clueless I however, did love the passive aggressive approach followed with an apology


Likewise, I apologise lol. One must truly keep their sense of humour when on forums.

 

[BombBudPuffa]

https://youtu.be/npTFNNIM7Wc

 

[Biologist]

Thanks BongFu, that's another good link to a side-by-side that shows decreased yield with defoliation I can add to my folder. I have no examples of defoliation increasing yield in side-by-sides in that folder yet.

 

[Storm Shadow]

It works on some strains... Not very many.... for the ones that it didnt work for ...it kills the yield

 

[mack 10]

Storm knows.

 

[BongFu]

It works on some strains... Not very many.... for the ones that it didnt work for ...it kills the yield

Agreed - there's a bunch of factors that need to be considered with defoliation. Genetics being a biggie but also growing method (e.g. if you pack loads of plants close and minimise canopy to do this you can focus bud development at the tops of plants which do receive light so overall with some genetics yield more per M2 - I think you will find the Jungle Boys do this), nutrient adjustments etc. Safe to say though that in many many (most) cases growers should NOT pluck leaves.


One thing I would say though is that lollipopping large plants and leaving plenty of foliage up top works well if handled correctly with most genetics. All got to do with LAI (Leaf Area Index) and PFD (Photon Flux Density). Even here though you need to be careful about stripping too much leaf biomass from the plant.

 

[BongFu]

Thanks BongFu, that's another good link to a side-by-side that shows decreased yield with defoliation I can add to my folder. I have no examples of defoliation increasing yield in side-by-sides in that folder yet.

Amazing how much hype there is about defoliation and yet when put to the test it comes up short. Hopefully, some serious research is done by the likes of Guelph University in Canada on the subject. Either way defoliation is a high risk practice most growers should steer away from.

 

[ginoberde]

I have seen this discussion going on for years, and it will be going for many more. I have been growing for 21 years, and been defoliating the last 2
When a friend of mine started doing it, i was one who questioned him and told him he would regret it. After a few runs and seeing what it did to his plants, I got enough courage to try it on mines, and I never stopped doing it ever since.
I can understand why someone would doubt this, it goes against everything we have been thought about plants
But as a grower i just had to try it out for myself, so i started with one plant, and the result amazed me, i do not think it gives more yield, what i see it doing is it makes all the buds grow, the lower ones that usually become larf, grow nice and dence, the big ones on top become rock solid

Everybody has a different place, enviroment etc. So there is never a warranty that we will all get the same results, and that is even a bigger reason i say if you have the clones, defoliate one and see how she reacts, if it works for you...great, if it didnt..well live and learn
For me, i defoliate the whole plant 21 days after 12/12 and then once more 21 days after that
I see the lower larf is now solid buds, and the upper ones are rock solid
Like i said, it works for me, but if i had not gotten my head out my ass, stopped asking for data and just tried it, i would have never known what i know today. Most of us growing weed today took a risk at some point and just said fugg it, what is stopping you now?

 

[slownickel]

I don't know any side by sides, but this person has done it and explains some findings:

https://youtu.be/xC7t4htH_ZE?t=2320 - 38:40 onwards, about lollipopping and defoliation

leaves that get < 200µmol "were not photosynthesizing efficiently (...) meaning they are not creating food, meaning they are a sink". They transpire and increase humidity.

SuperBad,

The data is clear. However, we are mixing apples and oranges together when looking at defoliation.

1. The data has been proven over and over that the leaves that are far enough away from decent light become sinks. There is a bit of a a flaw in that thinking. Sinks also become storage areas.

2. If there are not enough roots, defoliation can definitely be a negative, many will attest to this.

The issues lies somewhere in the middle.

Each branch is associated with a larger root. This is an amazing detail! What does taking a branch off the plant have on that particular root?

These are some of the issues that must be taken into consideration in defoliation.

Dank has mentioned Indicas, wonder how each of the hydrids reacts? And under what nutrient management? Hi Ca? Hi Mg? Hi K? We all know how fast we can get ourselves in trouble not knowing which lever to push and how hard.

If you had asked me a couple of years ago if it was possible to push conductivity upwards of 3 in a "soil/medium" and get both yield and quality, I would have said no. Today I can say I was wrong. Can I get away with a lot more defoliation than most, yep. Could I have said that 3 years ago? No. Life is a big experiment. That is half the fun.

Today we know that along with nutrient management there is architecture, light management by tucking, definitely a time (literally) to take out branches when their function of making a root has been achieved and a time to pull fans when they become huge sinks due to little or no light. Then the added dynamic of fertilization cycles aka "the art".

My point here is that the answer to defoliating or not will rely on a myriad of variables compounded by variety/blood lines and various aspects of crop management.

 

[starke]

Defoliation is not solely for yield, Biologist.

Defoliation benefits:
-Disease prevention around base of the plants with increased airflow and reduced moisture and humidity
-air flow in large dense bushes to prevent bud rot
-removal of lower material has been shown in some cases to push more growth to tops reducing popcorn buds
-Get light to shaded buds increasing yield

Been defoliating since my mentor taught me over 2 decades ago.

I defol for exactly these reasons. Here in humid ass FL even indoors with central air I would loose buds to rot if I did not defol and keep my airflow optimal. In my case it's not a question of getting more or less yield by defol. Without defol I would get very little usable harvest at all.

 

[ridoo]

Thanks for all the information here about defoliation,

I do it only around 10 days before harvest, only because then the large leaf are easy to remove, then the manicure right after the harvest is much more easy without all those big leaf...

thanks starke for the air flow control relation with defoliation, never think about this before, will give some try with limited defoliation in a room

thanks a lot everyone
r

 

[BongFu]

SuperBad,

The data is clear. However, we are mixing apples and oranges together when looking at defoliation.

1. The data has been proven over and over that the leaves that are far enough away from decent light become sinks. There is a bit of a a flaw in that thinking. Sinks also become storage areas.

2. If there are not enough roots, defoliation can definitely be a negative, many will attest to this.

The issues lies somewhere in the middle.

Each branch is associated with a larger root. This is an amazing detail! What does taking a branch off the plant have on that particular root?

These are some of the issues that must be taken into consideration in defoliation.

Dank has mentioned Indicas, wonder how each of the hydrids reacts? And under what nutrient management? Hi Ca? Hi Mg? Hi K? We all know how fast we can get ourselves in trouble not knowing which lever to push and how hard.

If you had asked me a couple of years ago if it was possible to push conductivity upwards of 3 in a "soil/medium" and get both yield and quality, I would have said no. Today I can say I was wrong. Can I get away with a lot more defoliation than most, yep. Could I have said that 3 years ago? No. Life is a big experiment. That is half the fun.

Today we know that along with nutrient management there is architecture, light management by tucking, definitely a time (literally) to take out branches when their function of making a root has been achieved and a time to pull fans when they become huge sinks due to little or no light. Then the added dynamic of fertilization cycles aka "the art".

My point here is that the answer to defoliating or not will rely on a myriad of variables compounded by variety/blood lines and various aspects of crop management.

You sum it up really nicely in that last paragraph.

I think though the message to be taken is that for those who support defoliation their arguments are largely anecdotal while where there are side by side trials that are reasonably handled (and there really aren't many of these online) there are no yield gains or in more cases yield losses.


I mean if you do go to the actual agricultural knowledge/science of defoliation you find immediately following defoliation root growth is significantly compromised. To borrow from someone else: studies have shown that root elongation essentially ceases within 24 hours after removal of approximately 50% or more of the shoot/leaf system and root mortality and decomposition may begin within 36-48 hours. Root respiration and nutrient acquisition are also reduced following defoliation, but to a lesser extent than root growth. Root respiration begins to decline within hours of defoliation and it may decrease substantially within 24 hours. In line with the reduction in root respiration following defoliation is a rapid reduction in nutrient absorption. Experiments conducted with perennial ryegrass growing in nutrient solution demonstrated that the rate of nitrate (NO3-) absorption began to decline within 30 minutes following removal of 70% of shoot biomass. NO3- absorption decreased to less than 40% of the pre-defoliation rate within 2 hours following defoliation. In these experiments, NO3- absorption continued to decline over the next 4-12 hours until it became negligible for 2 or 7 days before recovery began under high and low light intensities, respectively… Rapid reductions in root respiration and nutrient absorption following plant defoliation are proportional to the level of defoliation. That's from Briske, D. and Richards, J. (1995) Plant responses to defoliation A physiological, morphological and demographic evaluation

 

[Guest]

I would also like to point you over to the "New Grower Forum" as this obviously does not belong in advanced growing science and botany.

see here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65676

Welcome to icmag.

I would also recommend using the "Search Bar".

OP, Moderators please move to New Grower forum.

LT

Who put you in charge?

 

[heatherlonglee]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bue0VQRloLf/

Properly done defoliation in the link. You can easily see that not all leaves are removed; just enough to allow each bud to get direct light on them.

 

[BongFu]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bue0VQRloLf/

Properly done defoliation in the link. You can easily see that not all leaves are removed; just enough to allow each bud to get direct light on them.

Those buds look pretty average.

 

[prune]

You sum it up really nicely in that last paragraph.

I think though the message to be taken is that for those who support defoliation their arguments are largely anecdotal while where there are side by side trials that are reasonably handled (and there really aren't many of these online) there are no yield gains or in more cases yield losses.


I mean if you do go to the actual agricultural knowledge/science of defoliation you find immediately following defoliation root growth is significantly compromised. To borrow from someone else: studies have shown that root elongation essentially ceases within 24 hours after removal of approximately 50% or more of the shoot/leaf system and root mortality and decomposition may begin within 36-48 hours. Root respiration and nutrient acquisition are also reduced following defoliation, but to a lesser extent than root growth. Root respiration begins to decline within hours of defoliation and it may decrease substantially within 24 hours. In line with the reduction in root respiration following defoliation is a rapid reduction in nutrient absorption. Experiments conducted with perennial ryegrass growing in nutrient solution demonstrated that the rate of nitrate (NO3-) absorption began to decline within 30 minutes following removal of 70% of shoot biomass. NO3- absorption decreased to less than 40% of the pre-defoliation rate within 2 hours following defoliation. In these experiments, NO3- absorption continued to decline over the next 4-12 hours until it became negligible for 2 or 7 days before recovery began under high and low light intensities, respectively… Rapid reductions in root respiration and nutrient absorption following plant defoliation are proportional to the level of defoliation. That's from Briske, D. and Richards, J. (1995) Plant responses to defoliation A physiological, morphological and demographic evaluation

Huh, what? science facts on a defoliation thread? ROFL, you'd have better luck on an anti-vaxer thread than here...

 

[big315smooth]

I was never sure on this matter so id rotate and move plants around as much as could. i have a friend who pulls his plants out to water and puts them back in same spot and always has poor yellow undergrowth.

 

[BongFu]

Huh, what? science facts on a defoliation thread? ROFL, you'd have better luck on an anti-vaxer thread than here...

Sort of getting that