Genetic link between Haze C potency and seed longevity?

[HAZENACIOUS]

Nevil told me that the Haze C came out of seeds that were dated 1969, and he popped them in 1984, if I remember correctly. Out of a couple thousand popped there were only 7 sprouts.


Those seeds that sprouted were of course very old, and they carried the haze gene for devastating potency.


I had acquired my haze C hybrid NL5XHaze, or 5hz as Nevil referred to it as.


I crossed it to a variety of heirloom outdoor California in 1993 or thereabouts.


I grew out a ton of this stuff over a period of several years. Then I stopped growing for many years.
In 2010 I popped some of this ancient seed from 1993, and out of hundreds of seeds only 4 sprouted I crossed these to each other and got a bunch of seed.



These 4 seeds were all much hazier in appearance and potency, than what was average for the line when I had grown it in the 90s.



From 2010 and for several years I grew stock from seed I made from those ancient seedlings.


I grew that stock out for a couple years got very familiar with it.


Now in 2020 I popped a bunch of this 10 year old seed from 2010, low germination rate, again I noticed that the seed that was germinating seemed even hazier than what was average for the fresh seeds.


This experience has lead me to hypothesize that perhaps there is a link between seeds longevity and haze potency.


I was wondering, has anybody else had a similar experience to mine with haze or any other strains?

 

[ojd]

no its the Genetics that make potency not the age of seed.

How come your seeds didnt germ properly, not stored correctly ?
Did you keep them in the fridge

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I got a 20% germ rate which is low but not bad for 10 year old seeds. I don't refrigerate them.


Don't be so sure that there isn't a link. Unrelated traits can be linked to the same gene. My experience would indicate that there may well be a link. Refrigerator might mask this because if your germination rate stays high, of course non long lived seeds aren't being eliminated, they are being artificially preserved through the process of refrigeration, although this has nothing to do with why I don't refrigerate my seeds.


I'm curious to see if anyone has had a similar experience of working long with a seedline and noticing that time itself seems to select out superior specimens, if the seeds are old.


There is also the problem of atrophy with sprouts from older seeds, more of them tweak out, and they are usually slow starts.

 

[Donald Mallard]

are u saying that perhaps older seeds produce more potent cannabis ??



im with ojd on this one ,, its the genetics ,, which cant change once the seed is developed,
perhaps your just finding better samples and it has nothing to do with the age of the seed??

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Hi Donald,
That is not what I am saying.
I am postulating that perhaps seeds that live longer in a batch may be superior in some way.


Ie, if you have a thousand seeds that are 20 years old, and only 2 survive to sprout, those two must be superior to the others in some way because they survived right? The others didn't.



In the case of Haze there may actually be a genetic link between the traits of potency and seed longevity.
I say this because I have experienced it with my line of haze, I accept that it could just be dumb luck, but the consistency that I have noticed this with my strain from breeding it over a period of close to 30 years, I believe it could well be more than luck.

 

[ojd]

also what is your reasoning for not storing seeds in fridge or Freezer ?
20% is quite good for not refrigerated for 10 years.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Hi Donald,
That is not what I am saying.
I am postulating that perhaps seeds that live longer in a batch may be superior in some way.


Ie, if you have a thousand seeds that are 20 years old, and only 2 survive to sprout, those two must be superior to the others in some way because they survived right? The others didn't.



In the case of Haze there may actually be a genetic link between the traits of potency and seed longevity.
I say this because I have experienced it with my line of haze, I accept that it could just be dumb luck, but the consistency that I have noticed this with my strain from breeding it over a period of close to 30 years, I believe it could well be more than luck.

ahh i see what your saying ,
it would be nice if that were the case , the strongest longer lasting seed also being the more potent ones ,
could make selection a little easier i guess on older seed anyhow..



my theory is its simply pot luck , lol , ..

 

[zif]

Maybe not potency per-se, but what about vigor?

That might be loosely linked with both seed shelf life and potency.

Too bad it’s a setup for one of those multi-decade experiments....

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

also what is your reasoning for not storing seeds in fridge or Freezer ?
20% is quite good for not refrigerated for 10 years.

Hi OJD,
Thank you, I think it is owing mostly to genetics.

I never freeze seeds, because of my work, there is a lot of moving around, and I have read that if you have even 1 thaw and refreeze, its better not to freeze them at all. Not sure about

Refrigeration. I've had pretty good luck storing them long term in a very low humidity environment, at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

ahh i see what your saying ,
it would be nice if that were the case , the strongest longer lasting seed also being the more potent ones ,
could make selection a little easier i guess on older seed anyhow..



my theory is its simply pot luck , lol , ..

Hi Donald,

Lol! I'll bring the brownies.


Seriously though, I have a bunch of theories about it. I first noticed it on 2010 and again just recently.


I have noticed that Indica seeds, especially Afghan seeds are short lived on viability, often it's hard to get them to pop after 3 or 4 years. My hazes on the other hand retain 50% viability after 6 years and longer.
Recently I have had good experience getting 15-20% viability after 8 years with bagseed I collected in Africa.


Nl5 is purportedly an afghan, in my experience Afghan seed is short lived.


Haze being sativa, and in my experience sativa having seeds which are longer lived.
Can you see where I am going with this?


A lot of people believe that narrow leaf pheno is tied to sativa up style of high etc. I wouldn't doubt it because seemingly unrelated traits can be genetically linked, this is why determination of type is so important when breeding for a particular trait.


I believe seed longevity, like narrow leaf pheno, is an indicator of type, but it goes even deeper than this in my experience.

 

[troutman]

Proper seed maturity on plants and storage is key for longevity.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

ahh i see what your saying ,
it would be nice if that were the case , the strongest longer lasting seed also being the more potent ones ,
could make selection a little easier i guess on older seed anyhow..



my theory is its simply pot luck , lol , ..

Hi Donald,

Lol! I'll bring the brownies.


Seriously though, I have a bunch of theories about it. I first noticed it on 2010 and again just recently.


I have noticed that Indica seeds, especially Afghan seeds are short lived on viability, often it's hard to get them to pop after 3 or 4 years. My hazes on the other hand retain 50% viability after 6 years and longer.
Recently I have had good experience getting 15-20% viability after 8 years with bagseed I collected in Africa.


Nl5 is purportedly an afghan, in my experience Afghan seed is short lived.


Haze being sativa, and in my experience sativa having seeds which are longer lived.
Can you see where I am going with this?


A lot of people believe that narrow leaf pheno is tied to sativa up style of high etc. I wouldn't doubt it because seemingly unrelated traits can be genetically linked, this is why determination of type is so important when breeding for a particular trait.


I believe seed longevity, like narrow leaf pheno, is an indicator of type, but it goes even deeper than this in my experience.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Maybe not potency per-se, but what about vigor?

That might be loosely linked with both seed shelf life and potency.

Too bad it’s a setup for one of those multi-decade experiments....

Hi Zif
Yes, too bad, but when you breed a particular strain long enough you notice these things regarding types within your stock, relationships between traits pertaining to type.




Seed longevity is tied to vigor but for a different reason. There are so many factors that go into what makes a seed long lived, it's about genetic continuity, cellular metabolism, morphology, structural integrity, and so many other factors. This is often muddled by the fact that seedlings from very old seeds having defects and malfunctions because of age, that may injure or hamper the over all growth and vitality of the seedling, which are masking its expression of superior genetics for vigor.
Sometimes this problem cannot be overcome, but more often the seedling will take off as it matures, and sometimes it may take a new clone generation to restore vigor.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Proper seed maturity on plants and storage is key for longevity.

Hi Troutman,
Good point, but I am referring to variation in longevity within a seed population that has all been stored in the same condition(hopefully optimum) and is all from the same stock.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Not sure if you are supposed to vote in your own poll, but I figured I better vote Yes since nobody else is, lol.
If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I don't know if I would believe it myself, but it is more than luck. Surviving seedlings from older seed populations within nl5xhaze C hybrid populations will tend to lean more towards Haze phenotypes, which in turn are more likely to carry more of the haze potency pheno. This is owing to the dynamics of expression dominance between classic indica types from nl5, and the sativa haze types.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I recently popped some NH21XMML seeds from Nevil that were around 8 years old, got close to 30% viability. Crossed a male from those into the best selection from 10 year old 50% 5haze stock, and below are the resultant F1 hybrids. seedlings were quite uniform, and expressing strong hybrid vigor:

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Below pictured, is the mother of above garden, she is starting to swell from a healthy dusting of Grail pollen.


5hzC X California Heirloom #17

Dried bud:

 

[Benny106]

No idea. But out of all my old pips to hit the dirt recently, the highest germ rates came from the haze hybrids.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

No idea. But out of all my old pips to hit the dirt recently, the highest germ rates came from the haze hybrids.

Hi BeAn,
That is good to know, I'm not surprised, thank you for the information.
I have a question:
Did you grow out any of those old pips lines when they were fresh young seeds?

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Nevil told me that the Haze C came out of seeds that were dated 1969, and he popped them in 1984, if I remember correctly. Out of a couple thousand popped there were only 7 sprouts.


Those seeds that sprouted were of course very old, and they carried the haze gene for devastating potency.


I had acquired my haze C hybrid NL5XHaze, or 5hz as Nevil referred to it as.


I crossed it to a variety of heirloom outdoor California in 1993 or thereabouts.


I grew out a ton of this stuff over a period of several years. Then I stopped growing for many years.
In 2010 I popped some of this ancient seed from 1993, and out of hundreds of seeds only 4 sprouted I crossed these to each other and got a bunch of seed.



These 4 seeds were all much hazier in appearance and potency, than what was average for the line when I had grown it in the 90s.



From 2010 and for several years I grew stock from seed I made from those ancient seedlings.


I grew that stock out for a couple years got very familiar with it.


Now in 2020 I popped a bunch of this 10 year old seed from 2010, low germination rate, again I noticed that the seed that was germinating seemed even hazier than what was average for the fresh seeds.


This experience has lead me to hypothesize that perhaps there is a link between seeds longevity and haze potency.


I was wondering, has anybody else had a similar experience to mine with haze or any other strains?

Something I noticed hazenacious is usually with well made seed made with good parents....if the seeds arnt keept in the best conditions for one reson or another or through the passing of time an for example 10-15 years later these are tried but have a very poor germination rate...wat ive found in about 75% of cases is the strongest usually survive....ther are a few other examples of this with haze eg leet was gifted seed by shanti that had been made by nevil... 97 nh....an guess wat happened one awsome plant popped up....an most people buying nh have been chasing it ever since....soma popped a pack of 89 G13 x hzC...only one came out....same again one awsome male came through....created some devestating hybrids....seen it happen with other strains too....12-15 year old sensi star x big bud...only one seed survived....the plant was potent an just caked in resin an would easily give any hybrid tody a run for its money....something els is we had mixture of 50 seeds in a propergator about 5year old seed an the temperature was set to high....most fried an didnt pop...but about 10 survived....all 50 seeds were repurchesed replaced an regerminated with fresh seed of all the same strains.....later on these 50 along with the 10 surviving seeds were all flowered out together....turned out about 8 of the 10 survivors gave the best an strongest phenotypes in each of ther strains....an i found a couple of very special plants I kick myself still for losing in that batch... so maybe the saying "only the strongest survive " seems very probable.