Genetic Drift is it real?

[OrganicOzarks]

I am setting up a new spot, and am trying to figure out how large of a "mother" area I will need. However I have been kicking around the idea of not having mother's, and just clones. How real is genetic drift? I have seen quite a few growers not keep moms because of number limitations. This is not my situation. I am just trying to get the most out of my new space. So what do you think. Is genetic drift a real concern that I should be worried about, or can I save the room, and just keep cloning my plants?

 

[Owl Mirror]

New vegetative growth on a mother plant will remain consistant throughout it's life.
However, taking a clone then, cloning from that clone to make more clones would promote drift.

Taking new clones from the original provides you with a pure copy.
Cloning from a cloned plant, then taking clones from those clones only invites trouble.

 

[Jah (b)less]

Hey, i was just going to post this question too lol. In my experience i think that genetic drift is real, mother plants more than 2 years old don`t put out clones that have the same vigor that they used too..

But my question is what causes genetic drift? I think the answer lies in the root system. Cannabis is an annual plant and when you artificially keep it in a perpetual state of vegetative growth over extended periods of time the plant grows weak and reaches a point of senescence. The plant will always produce new leaves and branches but the root system stays the same. now you can prune the roots to induce new growth when transplanting but the age of the plant still stays the same.

It just really sucks when you have elite genetics that start to fade over time. So what are some opinions on how to bring back the orginal vigor in clones?? or is the only answer to start new with seeds and look though hundreds of beans for that one special lady?? hhmmmm............

 

[Bunz]

Explain the 25+ year old cali-o cut then.....................still rocking after all these years & that thing has been cut more then the cast in a Halloween movie.

I think genetic drift is brought on by man made causes.............i.e. stress, over fert, etc.

Bunz

 

[JackTheGrower]

I was wondering about this topic and Thanx for this thread..

Wouldn't Selfed seeds be the most ideal fallback? After the mother has faded and the clones are faded.. S1's would they be close?

 

[Jah (b)less]

I`ve grow self seeded plants before NO way near as good as the orginals, but i think it depends on the purity of the strain too. There are way more genetics floating around in hybrids that lets say a pure indica or sativa, that is what i think plays a huge role in genetic drift imho

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Genetic Drift is a very real phenomena. It only happens during sexual reproduction, it is not the term for clones changing over time. Clones stay the same forever unless they catch a virus, which doesn't happen often. Keep multiple clones around and take them from clean mothers. Don't worry about it.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Are clones less potent over many generations? By Ed Rosenthal

The potential of a plant is determined by its genetics. Unlike seeds, clones are virtually exact genetic duplicates of the plants from which they are taken. Although there is a slight genetic drift over many generations of cloning, this phenomenon occurs very slowly.

 

[stealthcabber]

i think bog would disagree... thats his technique-march of clones. he does say he throws out any weak looking ones.(cloning from clones that is)

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Genetic Drift is a very real phenomena. It only happens during sexual reproduction, it is not the term for clones changing over time.

Correct answer.

"genetic drift" has nothing to do with taking cuttings of cuttings of cuttings...

Maybe studying what "drift" actually is will help put this misconception to rest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

 

[SuperConductor]

Clones all the way. Mums are just handy is all, clones are easily lost overnight.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

The reason I bring this up is that I saw a Subcool article not to long ago, and it was about how he does not use mothers at all. It really made me think about it more, and more. Then I really started to look around, and come to find out Subcool is far from alone. To me it seems that the jury is still out. I just can't find any conclusive evidence to back either side up. Has anyone done a controlled test to see if they get "genetic drift" from a clone of a clone of a clone etc.. Versus just from cutting it from the same mom? If not I guess I have something to fuck with for a while and report back.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

i don't know what you call it, but our jack herer clones do not show the vigor that they once had... they are clones from clones/etc that we have kept for the last 4-5 years... and the clones def r not growing as they were prev.

we experimented this grow with a few clones, and also grew some jack from seeds. the ladies from seed def grew much better. fatter buds/etc/etc..

i know its not scientific, but when u grow a particular plant for a number of grows, and the yield/taste/potency wanes... something is up...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

i don't know what you call it, but our jack herer clones do not show the vigor that they once had... they are clones from clones/etc that we have kept for the last 4-5 years... and the clones def r not growing as they were prev.

we experimented this grow with a few clones, and also grew some jack from seeds. the ladies from seed def grew much better. fatter buds/etc/etc..

i know its not scientific, but when u grow a particular plant for a number of grows, and the yield/taste/potency wanes... something is up...

see: epigenetics

If you are taking 'less than healthy' cuts from 'less than healthy' plants... you can decrease the potency of your cuttings over time, I am sure... you can also reverse these epigenetic changes with a couple of 'generations' worth of TLC...

 

[JackTheGrower]

Well good! I'm happy to read that.

My experience is directly around the passion for Cannabis.

What got my attention is that we all can keep genetics forever if we form the connects to establish seeds savers and heirloom variety groups.

So if we are keeping genetics for future generations then our clones are safe investments and making female seeds from clones will cause some changes.

Then in saving cannabis genetics we need to do the best we can.

But let's save the genetics for future generations.


Great thread thanks for the topic.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

i don't know what you call it, but our jack herer clones do not show the vigor that they once had... they are clones from clones/etc that we have kept for the last 4-5 years... and the clones def r not growing as they were prev.

we experimented this grow with a few clones, and also grew some jack from seeds. the ladies from seed def grew much better. fatter buds/etc/etc..

i know its not scientific, but when u grow a particular plant for a number of grows, and the yield/taste/potency wanes... something is up...

Do you have a fresh bulb etc in comparison to the previous grows so to nix out other factors besides the plant performance? Are all other things equal basically?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Are clones less potent over many generations? By Ed Rosenthal

I don't know when he said that. Perhaps many many years ago? I think he wouldn't say the same thing today. If he did, he would be wrong. Sam has clones from 85, the calio clone is the same today as it was decades ago...Don't let your moms get viruses or diseases, always take cuttings from your healthy plants. It's that simple. Take Care.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

Do you have a fresh bulb etc in comparison to the previous grows so to nix out other factors besides the plant performance? Are all other things equal basically?

bulbs are changed after 2 grows (veg) and 3 grows flowering.. last grow both clones n seeds grown under same lights, and the diff. was easy to spot. the plants from seeds were much healthier.

we have 2 mums from which we take cuttings, and had 2 ladies from seeds. all the pheno's appear tobe very similar..

 

[indifferent]

Are clones less potent over many generations? By Ed Rosenthal

bah, Ed is a lunatic, bad source for any advice. Clones do not change over time as the genetics do not change. However, there can be change if an external mutagen is at work eg a virus. But no mutagen, no change, period.

Correct answer.

"genetic drift" has nothing to do with taking cuttings of cuttings of cuttings...

Maybe studying what "drift" actually is will help put this misconception to rest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

Very true Head, like I said, genetics do not change unless an external mutagen comes along and mutates them.

The reason I bring this up is that I saw a Subcool article not to long ago, and it was about how he does not use mothers at all. It really made me think about it more, and more. Then I really started to look around, and come to find out Subcool is far from alone. To me it seems that the jury is still out. I just can't find any conclusive evidence to back either side up. Has anyone done a controlled test to see if they get "genetic drift" from a clone of a clone of a clone etc.. Versus just from cutting it from the same mom? If not I guess I have something to fuck with for a while and report back.

Subcool, spent a lot of time talking to him and he has some strange ideas, he refuses to study any science and bases everything he says and believes on things he says he observes himself in his own garden. I have spoken to subcool about this issue in the past and he is 100% adamant that clones change over time, that they become tired and played out. Guy is an egomaniac, refuses to look at the hard science done by real professional in other areas of horticulture.

Genetics do not change over time, that is hard science. An External mutagen can mutate them, but left alone, they stay the same, therefore clones do not change over time!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

bah, Ed is a lunatic, bad source for any advice. Clones do not change over time as the genetics do not change. However, there can be change if an external mutagen is at work eg a virus. But no mutagen, no change, period.



Very true Head, like I said, genetics do not change unless an external mutagen comes along and mutates them.



Subcool, spent a lot of time talking to him and he has some strange ideas, he refuses to study any science and bases everything he says and believes on things he says he observes himself in his own garden. I have spoken to subcool about this issue in the past and he is 100% adamant that clones change over time, that they become tired and played out. Guy is an egomaniac, refuses to look at the hard science done by real professional in other areas of horticulture.

Genetics do not change over time, that is hard science. An External mutagen can mutate them, but left alone, they stay the same, therefore clones do not change over time!

The genome does not change...
the epigenome can, however...