Gavita-Pro 1000w 400v (new generation hps)

[spurr]

Hey Spurr i allmost took you serious.
Untill your last post.

I'm sorry you don't like the facts I posted. But it's quite obvious Whazzup lacks the understanding I (and others like Knna) have.

I would suggest you read what I wrote with an open mind, because from your first post it's quite obvious you think this Gavita-Pro luminaire is the best, which just isn't factual.

If Gavita-Pro was the best I would be first in line to use it. I am unbiased and only want the best. But I won't accept BS claims and incorrect data, etc., as proof of what is best.

FWIW, Whazzup admitted he works for Gavita, thus he's very biased and cannot be trusted at face value. I work for no one, I am a scientist and academic, thus my word can be trusted much more than his. Also, because I am the only one posting provable data, and Whazzup is not, my word can be trusted more than his.

 

[supermanlives]

NO SALE

 

[growshopfrank]

@ ALL:


Considering Whazzup, a self-admitted employee of Gavita (and thus he's very biased), won't show us the data he claims to have, I will buy a Gavita-Pro 1000 watt and do the testing myself (wrt the methodology by Dr. Johsi). Then I will post it here for all to see.

It will take me at least two-three months to do this testing bacause I don't have enough money to spend on the Gavita-Pro at this point.

looks to me like you both have a dog in this race...

 

[spurr]

NO SALE

^^^ Yea that.

However, I will state that if after I complete my testing, if Gavita-Pro is the best, I will happily eat my words and buy a few Gavita-Pro luminaires. That said, I'm not holding my breath

 

[spurr]

looks to me like you both have a dog in this race...

My only dogs are called "truth", "fact" and "honesty". I want to use only the best, and if that's Gavita-Pro I will happily use it and admit I was wrong, no thanks to the data Whazzup is not posting.

 

[spurr]

@ All,

I just edited my posts on this page to remove my comments about Whazzup's use of logical fallacies and my rude comment re STFU.

@ Whazzup,

I'm sorry Whazzup for posting the "STFU" comment, re your lack of data. I won't call you out for using logical fallacies any longer, and may I request you stop using them?

Thank you.

 

[whazzup]

wow. Did I ever say I was not connected to Gavita? You do a really bad internet search . I still wonder what data you want to have, you don't even read specs, you still assume that the pro 1000 uses 1100 Watt for example.

Now you can start calling me names and call it bullshit, but I would invite you to call philips and ask them what the values of their lamp guarantee plan were the last 5 years and how they were adjusted over time. You could ask them about the generations lamps and ballasts and how they solved problems in the early models and perfected the pair. You could ask them how many million of those lamps are already sold. You might follow the link I gave you in the CMH topic and see the Philips specs sheet. You could even see what the overhead created by the greenvision is, and understand that this is the only hps lamp that is specifically designed for an electronic ballast.

To design a lamp for an electronic ballast you need to tune the frequency of the ballast to the lamp, and design the lamp to handle the high frequency signal. This lamp can only be used on the specific greenvision ballast. They are tuned.

Many lamp manufacturers now understand that the wire frame causes problems when used with high frequency ballasts. That it why they come with "electronic" versions: they replace the frame wires with more sturdy ones from a different material. Not only Hortilux has made that change, Osram did the same thing and those lamps seem a lot more stable on electronic ballasts. That's a good thing because we like Osram burners. But what many forget is that electronic ballasts work in a range of different frequencies, that can cause acoustic resonance in the arc tube. That acoustic resonance is specific for the size arc tube. So it is impossible to design an arc tube that will not resonate in a frequency between 35 and 90 kHz (the frequency range within most E-ballasts fit).

Philips understood that many years ago and developed paired lamps and ballasts for optimal performance. Sunpulse (whatever you may think of them) understands that as they test electronic ballasts with their lamps and see if they qualify to be used with their lamps. To my knowledge there is no other HPS paired lamp/ballast combination coming from a specific main-stream manufacturer.

If you know how to google translate an internet page from Dutch to English you could read how someone tried 5 pro-1000 lamps on 7,5 meters and did a first closed system grow with many arrors, using organic nutrients, and yield 7 kg of quality cannabis. And you don't even have to take his word for it, others have been there to witness.

I'm sure any shop that carries is would not mind you taking readings from the lamp. I'm not sure what it is you want to read, but if you for example take the philips specs and the certified ISO diagram from the HortiStar reflector (and no, that is not a computer calculation) and see if you can compare your readings to the specs.

Now about those computer calculations: Based on the ISO diagram and knowledge of the PPF of the lamp we can calculate the optimal configuration for luminaries in a greenhouse or climate room. After the luminaries are installed yo need to measure if your calculations were right. With that experience you can even fine tune the design process. The calculations are actually very accurate, as we have accurate models. The most difficult part is the reflection from walls, as in a grow room. They are often over specified. Mirrors can be an option (yes I know the story about hotspots, no we did not see any on the ir images).

Actually the first measurement of a greenhouse or climate roome direct after installation is lousy. Lamps are not burned-in yet, it can take up to 100 hours of burning until you get a perfect uniform reading. That's why lamps need to be burned in for a while before they are measured.

For the rest: thank you for this insight into the English vocabulary. As English is not my first language, I am always willing to learn the more subtle uses of it as in effing and BS. I like to keep this polite and about the data. Let me get you some ulbricht sphere measurement to start with, and here is already the iso diagram for the HortiStar reflector.

For your convenience the link I posted in the CMH topic for you to review about the "data": LINK

Now I propose if you want to have a discussion you do one question at a time. Let me already answer a few:

Q: Does the Pro 1000 dimmable ballast have a philips print?

A: No, philips does not make the 1000W for 240V, and not a dimmable version either (other than dali). Gavita designed the electronics by philips specs for this lamp. So this ballast was also specifically designed for this electronic lamp to Philips specs.

Q: What is the efficiency of your reflector?

A: it is 96%. That is the total reflector efficiency, so if you put 1000 micromoles in you will get 960 micromoles to your plant.

Q: How did you get those numbers?

A: We have those done by a specialized lamp laboratory in Germany.

Q: How is the output of a lamp different in a reflector than in an Ulbricht sphere?

A: Free hanging in a sphere the lamp output is not optimal. These lamps need to reach their optimal operating temperature. In a sphere you can do that by letting the lamp heat itself until it comes to the optimal operating voltage and then do your measurement. That is why in practice the output is a bit higher than specified. Not all lamps are very sensitive for temperature, but some are realy sensitive to it.

Q: so why all these crazy numbers? 1850, 1900, 2020, 2100?

A: Well first of course let's look at the philips specs. They say efficiency is 2.02 micromole. The GreenVision 400V system only has an overhead of 32 Watt. So if you calculate that back the output is about 2100 micromoles per second. The previous version was specified at a guaranteed 1850, and later upgraded to 1900 as a guaranteed output. I agree this is very confusing, sometimes even for us, and therefore we do our own lamp measurements too. Lamps fortunately improve over time, as with the plus lamp, and there is still room for improvement.

Professional greenhouse growers and climate room researchers have their lamps and reflectors tested at our facilities to determine if they need to be replaced.

We are working on making Ulbricht sphere ppf measurements available of a variety of lamps, so you can really compare lamps based on ppf instead of lumens. Unfortunately other lamp manufacturers still specify their lamp output in lumens. Those measurements may show slightly different readings than the lamp manufacturers specifications and if we will always test more than one lamp of course. Anyone with a calibrated Ulbricht sphere at hand can check those readings, we invite any lamp manufacturer to repeat them or publish their own readings.

Q: What about that ppf/ppfd thing and Li-cor quantum meters? What do I measure with them?

A: Well, let's leave that explanation to Li-cor. I'm afraid that if I say that again some people will think that I completely lost my mind:

During photosynthesis, plants use energy in the region of the electromagnetic spectrum from 400-700 nm. The radiation in this range, referred to as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR), is typically measured as Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD), which has units of quanta (photons) per unit time per unit surface area. The units most commonly used are micromoles of quanta per second per square meter (µmol s-1 m-2). Plant scientists, horticulturists, ecologists, and other environmental scientists use LI-COR's Quantum Sensors to accurately measure this variable.

Source: http://www.licor.com/env/products/light/terrestrial.jsp

Q: Do you really think Gavita is that good?

A: I would not take my word for it as I am a very vague anonymous person on a forum who obviously doesn't understand a thing about this stuff. But maybe you can look around and see what other growers have to say about the products and the results. Your peers are always the best reference. Well, some peers

Now may I have one question at a time please with some degree of respect?

 

[spurr]

wow. Did I ever say I was not connected to Gavita? You do a really bad internet search .

I knew for a long time, in fact, I think I saw you in a YouTube video taking about the Gavita-Pro at the most recent Spanish cannabis convention (where you're still confused ). I was not allowed to post that you work for Gavita until you admitted you do, first. It's great that you're so proud to be biased ... (yup, that's sarcasm )

As for the rest of your post, I will only comment on one part. Everything has been debunked and corrected by me, ad nauseum, already. You just refuse to, or cannot, understand these issues. Like I asked before, please have a real scientist from Gavita (if you have any) come here and post, because you are so far beyond your depth you're downing and you don't even know it.

Q: What about that ppf/ppfd thing and Li-cor quantum meters? What do I measure with them?

A: Well, let's leave that explanation to Li-cor. I'm afraid that if I say that again some people will think that I completely lost my mind:

During photosynthesis, plants use energy in the region of the electromagnetic spectrum from 400-700 nm. The radiation in this range, referred to as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR), is typically measured as Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD), which has units of quanta (photons) per unit time per unit surface area. The units most commonly used are micromoles of quanta per second per square meter (µmol s-1 m-2). Plant scientists, horticulturists, ecologists, and other environmental scientists use LI-COR's Quantum Sensors to accurately measure this variable.

Source: http://www.licor.com/env/products/light/terrestrial.jsp

You haven't lost your mind, you just don't understand simple facts I have written. Or you refuse to understand them. Really, you are making yourself look very foolish, or at least very stubborn, with that quote above. I already explained why it's so.

But here, let me focus on two words in one sentence within that quote from Licor. Please either accept the facts I have posted or call Licor. Assuming you know what your writing about, when you don't even own a quantum senor (the brand matters not), and have never inquired about them, and don't understand them, makes you look rather foolish or simply very stubborn.

"The units most commonly used are micromoles of quanta per second per square meter (µmol s-1 m-2)."
​

 

[whazzup]

oh, talking about quantum efficiency, the fact that blue photons are a bit less efficient than red photons, but overall micromoles give a pretty good indication: a very readable document is THIS, also from Li-Cor ((who I do not represent)

 

[spurr]

oh, talking about quantum efficiency, the fact that blue photons are a bit less efficient than red photons, but overall micromoles give a pretty good indication: a very readable document is THIS, also from Li-Cor ((who I do not represent)

You silly goose, that's yet another document you misunderstand. That document is where I got a few screenshots I posted. And I have spoken at length to the author of that paper, he and I are both plant physiologists.

Can you say: BURN?

 

[spurr]

@ Whazzup,

I think it's fair to say at this point people can make up their own mind wrt what I wrote and what you wrote. So I see little reason for us to continue posting in this thread. That is, until I have completed testing of your Gavita-Pro and I post that data. Then we can talk more, and people will get real-world data for a more informed decision.

 

[whazzup]

I knew for a long time, in fact, I think I saw you in a YouTube video taking about the Gavita-Pro at the most recent Spanish cannabis convention (where you're still confused ). I was not allowed to post that you work for Gavita until you admitted you do, first.

It's great that you're so proud to be biased ... /sarcasm.

As for the rest of your post, I will only comment on one part. Everything has been debunked and corrected by me, ad nauseum, already. You just refuse to, or cannot, understand these issues. Like I asked before, please have a real scientists from Gavita (if you have any) come here and post, because you are so far beyond your depth you're downing and you don't even know it.


You haven't lost your mind, you just don't understand simple facts I have written. Or you refuse to understand them. Really, you are making yourself look VERY foolish with that quote above. I already explained why it's so.

But here, let me focus two words in on one sentence within that quote. Please either accept the facts I have posted or call Licor. Assuming you know what your wrting about, when you don't even own a quantum senor (the brand matters not), and have never inquired about them, and don't understand them, makes you look very foolish.

"The units most commonly used are micromoles of quanta per second per square meter (µmol s-1 m-2)."
​

Yes, that's most commonly used, and that's what scientists use, even on small surfaces.

So your first question is: do I own a Li-Cor quantum meter? No I don't. Fortunately my employer was so kind to equip me with one, as that is the standard instrument we use for light measurements and they are frequently calibrated. We have an array of Li-cor instruments and sensors. As well as spectrum meters, power analyzers etc. That is how we do Ulbricht sphere measurements.

Next? Oh I do hope I answered your question about any real life measurements (yes we do them with every climate room and greenhouse we have equipped) and computer models (no we do not calculate with calculated computer models, but with models based on real life measurements that are so complicated that we outsource them to a specialized lab).

I do apologize for all the confusion about the rising ppf values. I'm afraid that I might measure even higher readings with the next batch of lamps. I'm really sorry we can't keep up with the developments. But I do invite you to go see one for yourself. Various shops in California have them (if they are not already sold out). Or you could come over to the Netherlands and visit us to have a look yourself. Maybe combine that with a visit of the High Times cannabis cup end November in Amsterdam? I'm sure you would be an excellent judge.

Also Aalsmeer, where we are located, is one of the centers of horticulture in The Netherlands and the birthplace of hydroponics. You can visit the flower auction, the third largest building in the world by floor space, 7 times bigger than the pentagon.

A few hundred meters away you find the Jongkind substrate plant, where the Gold Label substrates and nutrients are made. And that only 15 minutes from Amsterdam.

So what is your next question?

 

[spurr]

So what is your next question?

See this post, just above yours, for my final question: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4727234&postcount=93

And it's nice to see you haven't stopped using logical fallacies ... /sarcasm

 

[whazzup]

@ Whazzup,

I think it's fair to say at this point people can make up their own mind wrt what I wrote and what you wrote. So I see little reason for us to continue posting in this thread. That is, until I have completed testing of your Gavita-Pro and I post that data. Then we can talk more, and people will get real-world data for a more informed decision.

This silly goose is certainly looking forward to that data and the test. Did I say they come with a 3 year full warranty and a one year warranty on the lamp? When testing do make sure you do not touch the reflector, as it gets hot. Here is a heads-up: The manual, which can be downloaded from the website.

I do invite you to ask questions if you still have them (please one at a time) and I invite others to ask questions too (other than about my personality). Yes, I can certainly be a pain in the neck sometimes, but I would not say I am uninformed. I'm afraid that the people who really know something about lighting at Gavita have no time to be on forums and are not really interested in it. But I sometimes feed them links which they read in their coffee breaks.

 

[whazzup]

See this post, just above yours, for my final question: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4727234&postcount=93

And it's nice to see you haven't stopped using logical fallacies ... /sarcasm

I'm sorry but I missed the question. It could be my bad interpretation of the English language.

Well if you have time during the cup to visit us do drop by for a cuppa.

 

[FreezerBoy]

LOOK! Over there! OTTERS! Aw, ain't they cute? Let us learn from the otters.


To all in general and none in particular, let's dial down the personal rhetoric.

This thread has been , until just recently, amazingly polite. Let's keep it that way. If any have numbers and science, post them up. If any disagree, feel free to say why. But, please, keep it to the science and avoid clever slurs or put downs.

I'm sure this must be fascinating to those with the science background required to follow it. Let's keep the thread: clean, on topic, impersonal, and most importantly, open for further contribution.

Carry on (in an otter kind of way)

 

[whazzup]

and sometimes you can agree to disagree. That is always a viable option.

 

[onegreenday]

I'm not keen on the 10,000 hour lamp life or spectrum.

What's your take on lamp life versus cmh/cdm 20,000 hours?

 

[whazzup]

(almost) Nobody in this industry uses its lamps for more than 2 years. If you grow continuously you use your lamp about 5000 hours per year.

In our rooms lamps can survive and last a bit longer (in hours of use) than in greenhouses as we only switch them on once a day: in greenhouses that can be several times per day, which increases the wear.

When you boost your lamps that can deteriorate your lamps a bit faster. Not that much though, because lamps are already designed to perform within the range of what a magnetic ballast normally offers them (which in ideal circumstances is a bit above 100%). At high overrun values we recommend to use a lamp shorter than rated lafe. Still, that's much longer than the average user uses it.

So, 10.000 hours does not seem a problem to me.

 

[onegreenday]

I'd suspect the greenhouse industry would prefer the longer life.
They watch their $$$ closely.


Our 'industry' requirements are different.

(almost) Nobody in this industry uses its lamps for more than 2 years. If you grow continuously you use your lamp about 5000 hours per year.

In our rooms lamps can survive and last a bit longer (in hours of use) than in greenhouses as we only switch them on once a day: in greenhouses that can be several times per day, which increases the wear.

When you boost your lamps that can deteriorate your lamps a bit faster. Not that much though, because lamps are already designed to perform within the range of what a magnetic ballast normally offers them (which in ideal circumstances is a bit above 100%). At high overrun values we recommend to use a lamp shorter than rated lafe. Still, that's much longer than the average user uses it.

So, 10.000 hours does not seem a problem to me.