Thanks for the input. I know this is off topic, but is that all your plants combined to equal 1gpw? How do you calculate that? Can you still compute that when you grow perpetual? There is no way I would be able to get 400g out of one plant using a 400w light lol, I know it can be done though... Most I ever got was 80.3g out of a Cheesewreck in a 4.5g pot, under a Prosource 90w Illuminator LED. Well anyway, thanks for the help
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GAVITA Pro 1000 DE
- Thread starter TacomaComa
- Start date
<off topic>I am sure that there are numerous topics on the forum regarding yield optimization. I calculate lamp power versus yield for the flowering cycle. There are many other types of calculations you can make. But that is what you should normally be able to achieve in a reasonably installed grow room. When optimizing with CO2 etc. you can do a bit better of course<end off topic>
Green Devil
Member
I also got these lamps, they're great!
Even better if you get one with MH and one with HPS.
Strangely I found that combining MH with HPS during flowering is much better than going with HPS solo.
Even better if you get one with MH and one with HPS.
Strangely I found that combining MH with HPS during flowering is much better than going with HPS solo.
that's not strange, only as in that MH is not as efficient in making photons as HPS is. It's the reason why we believe in plasma and kind old school already 
MH and specifically CMH efficiency has improved in efficiency over the years so it is more than ever a viable option. But even better solutions than MH have already been developed if you talk about additional spectrum.
MH and specifically CMH efficiency has improved in efficiency over the years so it is more than ever a viable option. But even better solutions than MH have already been developed if you talk about additional spectrum.
Whazzup, how do you feel about using the non aircooled Plasma to cover a 5x5 area for vegging like the Herbalizor did? Running T5's right now but wanting something with a little more growth but can't throw a 1000W HPS in there because of power limitations.....
How much heat would a non air cooled Plasma put out? It would be in my veg room witch is 6x12. I would devote a 5x5 area of that for vegging plants. then I would use a table and a few T5's for cloning.....
Thanks
How much heat would a non air cooled Plasma put out? It would be in my veg room witch is 6x12. I would devote a 5x5 area of that for vegging plants. then I would use a table and a few T5's for cloning.....
Thanks
5x5 is a bit big, I would use as much light as possible for veg, but a bit in balance with your light levels in the generative phase. Take into consideration that you light 18-24 hrs vegetative, so you need less light to reach the same DLI.
The amount of heat a convection cooled version emits is not relevant, as convection heat rises and will never reach your plants.
Bit off topic here though, this is the HPS 1000W double ended thread. There are LEP threads.
The amount of heat a convection cooled version emits is not relevant, as convection heat rises and will never reach your plants.
Bit off topic here though, this is the HPS 1000W double ended thread. There are LEP threads.
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A bold claim. Not sure on that one.
Hey Whazzup, I posted some questions in a more appropriate thread. Could you please have a look and let me know what you think? Thanks.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248747&page=2
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248747&page=2
C
crysmatic
whazzup, I did some math, and 1000 umol/m2s is equal to 44 W/ft2. Some growers would double that without blinking - and argue higher intensity still.
you mentioned a 1:1.35 light distribution. If I assume 1 m x 1.35 m (1.35 m2), that gives me 1,556 umol/m2s, and 69 W/ft2. Full summer sun ranges from 5,000 ftc (1,000 umol) to 10,000 ftc (2,000 umol) at midday in tropical regions. I've read that cannabis can use up to 1,500 umol.
In your opinion, at 69 W/ft2, how high would you run the lights off the canopy? How far apart should the lights be spaced for an even distribution? Or do I just need a light meter and find out myself?
At horticulturesource (thanks to the poster above) I found that (2) 1000W EL is about the same initial price as (3) 600W EL, offers 18% higher umol, and lower bulb and reflector replacement cost.
You may lose a few percent light to a wall, but isn't still better than losing it all to an open room?
Lastly, how does the Gavita Pro reflector compare to the PL HSE1000 Alpha reflector?
peace
Many questions
The answer to all of them is of course 42.
About your calculation: I come to a bit higher values (47W) and you should not forget that these lamps are 10-30% more efficient than the standard US of the shelf lamp. Also they are not air cooled (glass filtered) which costs you light. The HR96 reflector is 96% efficient and we recommend to change it regularly. Al together this can be up to 40% more light than the used set-up! So it is more likely that users use much lower values, and those, yes, you can double and would stay under 1500 umol. It would not gain you twice as much yield though to go from 750 to 1500, not without CO2. So don't stare at the watts per sq ft, that is highly inaccurate by aprox. 50%.
As for the 1:1.35, that is the ratio. You know the output op the lamp so based on the surface lit you know the average ppfd. At 60 cm from the lamp you get more than 1000 umol right under the lamp, at 50 cm from the lamp this is already more than 1500. As you will always try to create overlap this even increases the light levels.
Best investment advice I give with any lighting installation is a micromol meter to tune your lighting.
It is really difficult to give you a standard set-up because the results will be different for every room. In wide rows, with some quantities, you can take about a meter - 150 cm as the distance between the fixtures (in-line between the lamp center) and 1,5 - 2,5 m between the rows, but you would need distance to the crop for that. In any small configuration (less than 4 lamps) it depends on the size of the room and the reflective material of the walls, which do have an effect and help penetrate the crop. Sunlight doesn't come from just the top either.
The distance to the crop is therefor depending on the number of fixtures you use. With one fixture you don't have a lot of choice other than keep it low (60-70cm from the lamp).
In a larger room is it a lot simpler. Two lines of fixtures will give you a uniformity of more than 90% if positioned correctly, at a distance of about 1 meter of the crop. In a 3x7 m room with 12 lamps in two rows you can easily reach 1000 umol average this way with a uniformity better than 90%. Distance between lamps in row (core) 1.26m, between rows 1.74m.
In lower height rooms you can achieve uniformity easier with 600W fixtures. That's the way most growrooms in Europe are lit.
I can tell you everything about the Gavita reflector, but I am not going to comment on competitor products of course.
The answer to all of them is of course 42.
About your calculation: I come to a bit higher values (47W) and you should not forget that these lamps are 10-30% more efficient than the standard US of the shelf lamp. Also they are not air cooled (glass filtered) which costs you light. The HR96 reflector is 96% efficient and we recommend to change it regularly. Al together this can be up to 40% more light than the used set-up! So it is more likely that users use much lower values, and those, yes, you can double and would stay under 1500 umol. It would not gain you twice as much yield though to go from 750 to 1500, not without CO2. So don't stare at the watts per sq ft, that is highly inaccurate by aprox. 50%.
As for the 1:1.35, that is the ratio. You know the output op the lamp so based on the surface lit you know the average ppfd. At 60 cm from the lamp you get more than 1000 umol right under the lamp, at 50 cm from the lamp this is already more than 1500. As you will always try to create overlap this even increases the light levels.
Best investment advice I give with any lighting installation is a micromol meter to tune your lighting.
It is really difficult to give you a standard set-up because the results will be different for every room. In wide rows, with some quantities, you can take about a meter - 150 cm as the distance between the fixtures (in-line between the lamp center) and 1,5 - 2,5 m between the rows, but you would need distance to the crop for that. In any small configuration (less than 4 lamps) it depends on the size of the room and the reflective material of the walls, which do have an effect and help penetrate the crop. Sunlight doesn't come from just the top either.
The distance to the crop is therefor depending on the number of fixtures you use. With one fixture you don't have a lot of choice other than keep it low (60-70cm from the lamp).
In a larger room is it a lot simpler. Two lines of fixtures will give you a uniformity of more than 90% if positioned correctly, at a distance of about 1 meter of the crop. In a 3x7 m room with 12 lamps in two rows you can easily reach 1000 umol average this way with a uniformity better than 90%. Distance between lamps in row (core) 1.26m, between rows 1.74m.
In lower height rooms you can achieve uniformity easier with 600W fixtures. That's the way most growrooms in Europe are lit.
I can tell you everything about the Gavita reflector, but I am not going to comment on competitor products of course.
C
crysmatic
Thank you for all the info, Whazzup! It's a lot to digest.
I have a 2.1 m tall room...so 600s it is At what height does the 600W give 1000 umol? I just want a reference before I go crazy with the mmol metre.
It seems to me that the 1000 puts out quite a bit more light than the 600 per watt (2100 vs 1190 umol) for lower initial cost and maintenance. Does the 1000 actually light up more area?
Can you tell me the differences between the Gavita pro reflector, and Gavita's greenhouse reflectors?
I have a 2.1 m tall room...so 600s it is
At what height does the 600W give 1000 umol? I just want a reference before I go crazy with the mmol metre.It seems to me that the 1000 puts out quite a bit more light than the 600 per watt (2100 vs 1190 umol) for lower initial cost and maintenance. Does the 1000 actually light up more area?
Can you tell me the differences between the Gavita pro reflector, and Gavita's greenhouse reflectors?
You are right, the 1000W outputs a lot of light and that's why 99% of all high intensity lighting in greenhouses in Holland is now equipped with this lamp. There are however also greenhouses that only require very little extra light and in order to get good uniformity they use 750W or 600W. In climate rooms lamps are mostly 250-400W.
For it to cover more area you need to hang it higher above your crop. The reflector is exactly the same, as the arc tube sits in exactly the same position within the reflector. So the spread is the same, but the intensity is higher. Therefore you need more distance from the 1000W.
1000 umol you will get straight under the 600W lamp at about 45-50 cm distance. Closer than that light levels rise fast. In overlapping situations always heel more distance.
For the 1000W lamp: 1000 umol at 60 cm and rising very steep after that (!), but again, when using reflecting walls and more overlapping fixtures keep some distance, the lamps will overlap and supplement each other, creating a more uniform light and better penetration because it comes from more sides.
oh, about the difference between the reflectors: there is none. They are the same HR96 reflectors. Why invent something new if this is already so efficient and can create such good uniformity? There has been so much reflector development over the last 25 years already, it is really hard to come up with something better with the same efficiency. Well you could make them bigger of course - super-size them - thing is you would have to super-size the lamp too...
For it to cover more area you need to hang it higher above your crop. The reflector is exactly the same, as the arc tube sits in exactly the same position within the reflector. So the spread is the same, but the intensity is higher. Therefore you need more distance from the 1000W.
1000 umol you will get straight under the 600W lamp at about 45-50 cm distance. Closer than that light levels rise fast. In overlapping situations always heel more distance.
For the 1000W lamp: 1000 umol at 60 cm and rising very steep after that (!), but again, when using reflecting walls and more overlapping fixtures keep some distance, the lamps will overlap and supplement each other, creating a more uniform light and better penetration because it comes from more sides.
oh, about the difference between the reflectors: there is none. They are the same HR96 reflectors. Why invent something new if this is already so efficient and can create such good uniformity? There has been so much reflector development over the last 25 years already, it is really hard to come up with something better with the same efficiency. Well you could make them bigger of course
- super-size them - thing is you would have to super-size the lamp too...
Green Devil
Member
that's not strange, only as in that MH is not as efficient in making photons as HPS is. It's the reason why we believe in plasma and kind old school already
MH and specifically CMH efficiency has improved in efficiency over the years so it is more than ever a viable option. But even better solutions than MH have already been developed if you talk about additional spectrum.
Well, maybe I'll just have to prove you wrong then - regarding the plasma!
I have found that it is better to add more light sources than adding fewer, but stronger, lamps.
At least for the vegetative phase.
Since we are talking photons, how much light can marijuana plants use per square X?
There has to be a limit.
2 of my Gavita PRO 1000 DE attached.
Attachments
based on your picture I can assure you that you are over-saturating your plans close to the lamps. Over-saturation you can expect as close as 50 cm straight under the lamp as you will reach intensities of over 1400-umol, at 40 cm much more than 2000 umol!
A good ppfd is 1000 umol s-1 m-2. If your climate is perfect up to 1500. But going from 1000 to 1500 will not give you as much increase in yield as going from 600 to 1000. So in case you have average more than 1000 umol s-1 m-2 you should actually grow in a bigger space for a better efficiency and much less problems. Using a better spectrum allows you grow with higher intensity. I had plants survive at over 2000 umol plasma light, at very close distance.
A good ppfd is 1000 umol s-1 m-2. If your climate is perfect up to 1500. But going from 1000 to 1500 will not give you as much increase in yield as going from 600 to 1000. So in case you have average more than 1000 umol s-1 m-2 you should actually grow in a bigger space for a better efficiency and much less problems. Using a better spectrum allows you grow with higher intensity. I had plants survive at over 2000 umol plasma light, at very close distance.
C
crysmatic
I shared your Gavita info on another forum, and immediately got the question "what's the penetration?"
so...how do you define penetration? e.g. the point of 50% loss relative to the top of the canopy?
How does the 1150W mode affect light energy, foot print, and penetration?
What make/model of PAR light meter do you use? tia
so...how do you define penetration? e.g. the point of 50% loss relative to the top of the canopy?
How does the 1150W mode affect light energy, foot print, and penetration?
What make/model of PAR light meter do you use? tia
lol well I would not try to penetrate with a double ended lamp, though it is not a wide as a single ended it has a nasty wire at the end
The penetration into the crop depends on three things:
1. The density and intensity of the light source
2. The reflector
3. The overlap of the lamps (penetration in the crop)
1. Density and intensity
At 2070 umol s-1 you can not find a brighter lamp. Also if you look at the light in the shop you will notice that the light is more intense than other 1000W lamps, because the arc tube is smaller (a higher light density).
2. The efficient reflector is designed to bring light down, while having a 120 degrees spread to overlap with other fixtures. General remark: forget inverse square law. That works only for point sources without reflector and at 5x the maximum length of the light source.
3. When overlapping lamps in a light plan you will see that going further away from the lamps the intensity will not diminish as much as a single lamp. You also will get a much better penetration using overlapping lamps because of the wide reflector spread.
1150W setting will give you 15% more light, as the efficiency is maintained in this overdrive setting. You will use 15% more energy. The spread is defined by the reflector, so it will stay the same. However, you need to take more distance from the reflector (a minimum of 70 cm) so you will have a bit more overlap using more reflector, which adds to the uniformity.
We use Licor meters with cos corrected quantum sensors, but for hobby use there are other meters available as well. Though these are not as precise to use because the sensor will not be as linear as the Licor, they are much better equipped for light measurement that the lux meters. They work with a multiplication factor for the different types of lamps because the don't have a linear frequency response.
Sensors need to be calibrated every 2 years.
Though a Licor 250a with sensor is an expensive piece of equipment and you don't need it every day, so this is a great tool to share among a group of growers. I know a few shops that have them available for their customers to measure their rooms.
The Apogee MQ-200 is more reasonably prices and also sold as OEM by some companies, such as sunlight supply.
The penetration into the crop depends on three things:
1. The density and intensity of the light source
2. The reflector
3. The overlap of the lamps (penetration in the crop)
1. Density and intensity
At 2070 umol s-1 you can not find a brighter lamp. Also if you look at the light in the shop you will notice that the light is more intense than other 1000W lamps, because the arc tube is smaller (a higher light density).
2. The efficient reflector is designed to bring light down, while having a 120 degrees spread to overlap with other fixtures. General remark: forget inverse square law. That works only for point sources without reflector and at 5x the maximum length of the light source.
3. When overlapping lamps in a light plan you will see that going further away from the lamps the intensity will not diminish as much as a single lamp. You also will get a much better penetration using overlapping lamps because of the wide reflector spread.
1150W setting will give you 15% more light, as the efficiency is maintained in this overdrive setting. You will use 15% more energy. The spread is defined by the reflector, so it will stay the same. However, you need to take more distance from the reflector (a minimum of 70 cm) so you will have a bit more overlap using more reflector, which adds to the uniformity.
We use Licor meters with cos corrected quantum sensors, but for hobby use there are other meters available as well. Though these are not as precise to use because the sensor will not be as linear as the Licor, they are much better equipped for light measurement that the lux meters. They work with a multiplication factor for the different types of lamps because the don't have a linear frequency response.
Sensors need to be calibrated every 2 years.
Though a Licor 250a with sensor is an expensive piece of equipment and you don't need it every day, so this is a great tool to share among a group of growers. I know a few shops that have them available for their customers to measure their rooms.
The Apogee MQ-200 is more reasonably prices and also sold as OEM by some companies, such as sunlight supply.
