GA3: How to germinate old seeds?

[Beuh-chat]

Hi
I have to try with my 50 years old seed from congo

 

[HaploidDoubler]

Gibrellic acid is a hormone (an inducer) that induces germination and sprouting in seed and plant tissue calluses. It may induce phenotypic irregularities, but it does not induce genetic mutation that I’m aware of. Think of it as telling the genome what “program” to run, like a batch file or something for you programmer nerds out there! Anyway, the stuff has its uses!
I use a media impregnated with Gibrellic acid at work in order to get sprouts to form from a callus. It’s also of course used for germination. In my agar based media we use 500ml Deionized water, MS (forgot exact amount, I may update this post later if it’s useful to anyone), 30 grams sucrose (sugar), pH balance to 5.8 to optimize nutrient uptake, we bake it in an autoclave, you could use a pressure cooker, and after it cools to a temp cool enough to handle (90*F or so) we add 500ul GA3, too hot and it will denature! This media is for double haploid calluses to produce shoots we can clone. Maybe it could be useful, maybe not. Growing in this stuff makes them neutrotrophic, they just suck up sugar and media and don’t rely on photosynth, you gotta “harden” them before potting in soil or whatnot. It’s a lot like plant life support. I work currently on brassica at a University, I’d like to ply my skills to Cannabis breeding in the industry when I graduate. This seems like a great place to learn the trade, I’m just trying to give back by sharing where I can! Hope this tidbit was useful to someone!

 

[Sport Farmer]

I've been trying to germ a bunch of old seeds (20+ years) for awhile now and I haven't been successful at all. I've had a few crack and then just give up... but thats about it. I bought some GA3 about a year or so ago, sandpapered them down a little and let them soak in that for 24-36 hours and that didn't even do the trick for me... and they give you like the most meager of amounts of that GA3 when you order it... Just enough to piss you off.

I'm gonna try and mix up some kelp solutions and try the clonex suggestion too as I have both of those in my arsenal... At this point I'm open to anything because all the usual suspects aren't working for me... and I've tried!!!

 

[earthwyrms]

I'm not sure what clonex has in it, i didn't look it up,
But i guess it is indole-3-acetic acid, IAA, 3-IAA, an auxin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indole-3-acetic_acid

Which stimulates root growth. "HaploidDoubler" posted that he uses Gibberellic Acid, GA3, a gibberellin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberellic_acid

to induce shoots from calouses.

i also don't know what is in AgBio ful-power, but it looks like fulvic and humic acids.

But superthrive has seeweed extract. It might have other plant hormones, in a mixture, but seaweed has auxins, or just the auxin 3-indole acetic acid, IAA, 3-IAA.

I couldn't figure out why using small amounts of superthrive seemed to do the opposite of help, when i tryed germinating small amounts of F1s or parts of seed packs that i bought, that i wanted to insure a sprouted seed, from.

I think it could be possible to have a mixture of auxin or whatever else is in superthrive, balanced at a near nonexistant amount, in concert with GA3 because of a maybe unknown to us but maybe in a scientific white paper, inyeraction of biological stuff. But maybe not at all.

I figure though that abiscic acid, maybe cytokinins and maybe maybe jasmonjc acid would be detrimental

But maybe, you could put a drop of superthrive in a beer cup of water and then mix a small amount of that with the water to make a stock solution of 1000ppm GA3, so then the ratio to GA3 is really low but still present.

Also the nutrients (any enzymes?) are helpfull (unless it gives bacteria a help too, so i wodered about using H2O2 for a component, but i'm not sure if it chemically reacts with the IAA and GA3. But as "HaploidDoubler" told us, too high a temp, over ~90degF, destroys the GA3 molecule.

I'm no expert, i just trust that the people who used AgBio ful-power are finding it works somewhat, and so the fulvic and humic acids with GA3 should be complimentary, but the hormone GA3, is what seems to be the real thing that the seed produces to outconventrate the abiscic acid, which preserves seeds for longer thwarting GA3 and helping keep tnem dormant. (i think it goes something like that, but i really don't know).

Anyway, i have a great need to get this right the first time,

Because i got a twelve pack of Snowhigh - Golden Dragon "
Khmer Gold Cambodian x Chiang Mai Northern Thai"

And i'm fretted because 6 didn't sprout and neither did half of my Ace Seeds - Double Thai.

I think i have 6 left of each

The golden dragon is out of stock and was prohibitively expensive (for me) as it was.

If lose these seeds, i won't be able to make a semi landrace Thai effort, with 4 Thais together, and then with Gyspy's Lao, which also didn't sprout and are old seeds. And also, maybe with the Mekong Haze, also old stock, to get 6 strains, as a selected but then semi-wild/fresh genepool, which could maybe last longer into the future. I don't know, it's just the hope that it could work

I need to make sure i get it right becaue i don't have the resources or connections to get help with backup seeds, ect.

Auxins form roots and i'm not sure if it makes sprouting harder, but in my experience, it seemed to hinder it a bit more.
AgBio ful-power has fulvic and humic acids, (maybe enzymes) and was reported to part help and some people not.

GA3 in another thread, https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=334985&page=6
"MysticFunk"
"With the 200 ppm solution I got 26% germination rate and with the 400 ppm solution I got 20%. ''

I have used the GA3 with concentration of <130ppm and soaked the seeds for cca 4 hours.
6 out of 20 germinated and growing healthy.
Without GA3 6 out of 30 germinated and growing now.

i have used ga3 .. i used it at 130ppm on some very old seeds ,,and outa 10 only 2 made it.. they stretch lik crazy at first than slow down around 2-1/2 to 3feet tall.. once they stopd stretching i vegd them till it had normal leafs again and than cloned it and its normal and in flower rightnow and looks Amazing!!
make sure u see wat the ppms are at..if there Really old seeds lik mine were id use 200ppm..

Peace

I seem to recall ppm of closer to 400 ended up actually working on the ones it worked on. More or less didnt have any affect too low or too high.

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it's very easy to make up a batch of tissue culture medium.
you can make and buy all the stuff needed for under a 100 dollars....
I fill small test tubes half full of the medium. then pressure cook them to sterilize.
I make up a lot of them at one time and save the others I don't use in the fridge..
if you don't know how to mix up a batch of medium. you can get recipes online that work well.
I then drop the seeds in a 10% bleach/water solution for 3 to 5 minutes, then wash in sterile water.
then put them in the medium very fast and your good to go...


also I don't like to use more then 200ppm of ga3 because I have seen it mutate plants to single blade leaf freaks that don't grow well.
I think it has more to do with how long the seeds soak in the solution then how high your ga3 ppm is.


try soaking your seeds in a ppm of 125 for longer time than just going right up to 400ppm.


i'm going to make up a batch soon to pop all these old mexican seeds. and maybe i'll make a thread about how I do it..




sexy mexi seeds from the 80's and 90's


View Image


peace
-mystic

I've used it with some success and the concentration varies depending on the seed, how they've been stored, and how old they are. It really is a trial an error process which can be a problem if you have a small amount of seeds. I use in the range of 100 to 250 ppm as someone mentioned earlier and soak for 4 to 6 hours. I then soak in plain water for an hour or so and then place in paper towels. (I always scuff seeds too)

An easy way to play with concentrations is to make a stock solution that's 1000 ppm. This can then be diluted to the desired concentration, ie. for 100 ppm it's 1 part stock solution to 9 parts water, for 250 it's 1 to 3, etc. I've found this the best way because you don't need much solution to soak seeds.

As far as stretch, you can get some but they will grow out of it. I like to start at lower concentrations and work up if necessary. This is the trial an error part, using enough to activate the seeds but not using too much which will create really elongated seedlings. It will not affect the genetics, it's a gene regulator.

@Mystic Funk, nice cache. Looks like you have plenty to play around with.

Using Ful Power is a great idea, but if it were 'better than gibberellic acid', botanists would use it instead of GA3. But they don't.

A combination of Ful Power and GA3 would be an interesting experiment, though.

It must be complex, like a concert, composition, song rather than a note, like THC compared to weed strains

i tried to consolidate the most useful information together in this one post. Maybe i can contribute in the future, im a kittle worried though that i wont suceed. So if anyone has any more information, please post it.


I also have had a hard time with iboga seed and lost most of them too, but i guess the trick is to spray it in a bag of peat moss, and keep it moist but i presume, some airflow is needed or it could rot. I have been hesitant to go through with that too.
But, i assume hydrogen peroxide would be the key, because as long as an established fungus mycelium or whatever doesn't set on the stuff, then spores and bacteria are sizzled. I have germed cannabis seeds in water, in mini applesauce cups, with some H2O2 just splashed in and then covered to keep the fugus gnats out (they might have established mycellium on them). I don't know if i had any better rates or anything, i just could leave it and forget about it for a while and not be worried about changing the water and losing seeds to rot infection.

I suspect also, maybe a bit of wetting and then ski

light drying but not too much is a part of a success, because i noticed, like MysticFunk, that in soil, in my case not a worm bin, but a tub with different plants in it, that when watered every now and then and allowed to dry out (not strong lights, low need to water continually, maybe every 3 days or a week maybe ten days (if it's rainy and the humidity is too high, and less transpitation occurs), that dud seeds will just pop up every now and then.




Also, for "HaploidDoubler" heres somehing that mentions some plants needing other gibberellins too, for some stuff

"
GIBBERELLIC ACID-3 INFORMATION SHEET

THE HISTORY, ORIGIN AND USES OF GIBBERELLINS
Gibberellins were discovered by Japanese plant pathologists studying "bakanae" disease ("foolish seedling") of rice, in which seedlings grow elongated and die. In 1898 Shotaro Hori demonstrated that it was caused by a fungus, now known as Gibberella fujikuroi. In 1926 Eiichi Kurosawa reported that a chemical produced by the fungus caused the symptoms, and that the substance was heat-resistant, not losing its activity after 4 hours at 100°C (212°F). In 1935 Teijiro Yabuta first isolated a non-crystalline solid and named it Gibberellin. In 1938, Yabuta and Yusuke Sumiki first isolated a crystalline compound from the cultured fungus.

Since this time, 79 different gibberellins have been isolated, many of these from the seeds of a wide variety of species. Gibberellic acid-3 (GA-3) is the most widely used, and is produced commercially by growing the fungus in huge vats and then extracting and purifying the GA-3.

Many different gibberellins are present in common plants. Rice contains fourteen GAs, and rice anthers contain up to 3.4 micrograms of GA-4 per gram fresh weight. Maize (corn) seed contains twelve GAs, maize pollen 9 GAs, wheat and barley contain 5, and 4 day old wheat seedlings contain 11. GAs are produced in the roots of onions and act as bulb suppressants, preventing the swelling of the bulb until the proper time. GAs control sex differentiation in cucurbits, spinach, hemp, and maize. GAs control shoot elongation in many plants, and dwarf forms of some plants are due to GA deficiencies. Developing peach seeds are rich in GA-32 and extracts have been used to induce flowering in Xanthium and Perilla. Ferns produce GA-related compounds called antheridiogens which trigger antheridia formation.

Gibberellins are used in agriculture for various purposes. GA-3 is sprayed on seedless grapes to increase grape size and yield, and it is used on navel oranges, lemons, blueberries, sweet and tart cherries, artichokes and other crops to decrease or increase fruit set, delay rind ageing, etc. These effects are highly dependent on concentration and stage of plant growth. For example, 0.02 micrograms GA-3 promotes flowering of dwarf Ipomoea nil, but 2 - 20 micrograms inhibits flowering. Ten micrograms of GA-3 applied to pea seedlings nearly doubled shoot length if applied at 3 days old, but barely affected 9 day old seedlings. GA-3 and GA-13 trigger female cone formation in almost all Taxodiaceae and Cupressaceae—an 8 month old seedling of Sequoiadendron produced a female cone after weekly GA applications. Extremely small amounts of GAs may cause effects- as little as 2 nanograms (billionths of a gram) can trigger cone formation in a Cupressus arizonica shoot-tip. The Pinaceae do not form cones with GA-3, but need GA-4, 7 and 9. This property is used to speed up tree-breeding programs. GA is used to trigger flowering of sweet potatoes in breeding programs, to help tomatoes set fruit at high temperatures in the tropics, and to stimulate flowering in the Araceae, such as in breeding taro. GA-3 applied to seed of chinese cabbage overcomes the need for chilling or long days to trigger flowering, so is used in the tropics for breeding.

Developing seeds are active sites of GA biosynthesis, and studies have found increases in GA levels in seeds during cold treatment and germination. The germination of old seeds has been improved with use of GA. Applied GA-3 may trigger dormant seed germination, in many cases overcoming the need for special or prolonged dormancy-breaking conditions such as cold. treatment, light, after-ripening, etc. We have designed these kits for the study of this effect.
"

It's a part of this webpage, https://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/GibberellicAcid.htm

 

[earthwyrms]

according to that site 100mg/L is 1000ppm

It mentions how a solution degrades overtime. so if making one, it is wasteful unless you are germinating alot alot of seeds.

To fix this, i think it is best to use a $20 milligram scale or a better one maybe around $50. It is accurate to +-5mg

If you dissolve 100mg in some Acetone (preferably) or Methanol (also evaporates sort of fast)
in a small graduated cylinder from ebay.

Then use a plastic pipette to transfer 10ml if it was 100ml, ect. Ten percent of the liquid
And let the two separate parts evaporate in something glass or HDPE/LDPE

(Methanol can be in other plastics alright though, but not acetone)

Now there is 10mg to a +-0.5mg accuracy

If you originally split it in 20ths than you have 5mg +-0.25mg accuracy. The other part is now less that much and usable again to do the same thing, or just separate all 10 or 20 parts to start, so you have future prepared units.

All there is to do is mix it with water in the right ratio. You can use the graduated cylinder for that too.

The GA3 i got is supposedly 99% instead of 90%

for $6.89 "5 grams 99% Purity Gibberellic acid GA3 Kit With Instruction BR Biological Grade"

so here's some numbers/ semi table for reference of either.
But, If the %99 is really %90 then ~!> should show the actual ppm (better less than more)

ppm = mg/ml 90% --> mg/ml 99% ~!> ppm, if your %99 is %90
ppm = 1000/ppm [mg/ml] --> that * (90/99) [mg/ml] ~!> ppm * (90/99)


1000ppm = 1.0mg/ml --> 0.9090mg/ml ~!> 909.0909ppm

1mg/1ml, 10mg/10ml, 100mg/100ml
0.125mg/1mg, 1.25mg/10ml, 12.5mg/100ml
0.113636 is meant to show the 36 is repeating
0.113636mg/1ml, 1.13636mg/10ml, 11.3636mg/100ml--> 11 to 12 mg per 100ml,
the amount you take from your initial acetone or methanol mixture can be figured out by taking the volume. Maybe 100ml and the mg GA3, 100mg or here, maybe 50mg ( the max on a $50 scale)
50mg/100ml
If you want 11.37mg, than cross multiply,
50mg:100ml
11.37mg:Xml,

11.37mg*100ml =50mg*Xml
(11.37mg*100ml)/50mg = Xml
X=22.74ml, 23 would do real close.

Always look at the bottom of the curve of liquid (the miniscus)(except for mercury which is the top of the bubble, and also not applying here, but cool fact )






500ppm = 0.5mg/ml --> 0.4545mg/ml ~!> 454.5454ppm

400ppm = 0.4mg/ml --> 0.3636mg/ml ~!> 363.6363ppm

350ppm = 0.35mg/ml --> 0.31818mg/ml ~!> 318.1818ppm

325ppm = 0.325mg/ml --> 0.295454mg/ml ~!> 295.4545ppm

300ppm = 0.3mg/ml --> 0.295454mg/ml ~!> 295.4545ppm

250ppm = 0.25mg/ml --> 0.227272mg/ml ~!> 227.27ppm

225ppm = 0.225mg/ml --> 0.204545mg/ml ~!> 204.5454ppm

200ppm = 0.2mg/ml --> 0.1818mg/ml ~!> 181.8181ppm

125ppm = 0.125mg/ml --> 0.113636mg/ml ~!> 113.63ppm




If looking to use non repeating digits for the milligrams of the %99
GA3

, 0.9mg pure GA3 in 1mg %90
0.99mg pure in 1mg
(.9*1)/.99=mg of %99 equivalent, 90/99
.9090mg %99 GA3 = 1mg %90 GA3

Or if 1mg of %99 GA3 is in 1ml H2O, it is .99/.9, 1.1 times 1000ppm
1100ppm
So
1mg/ml : 1100ppm
X mg : Y ppm

1mg/ml * Y = X mg * 1100ppm

y = 1100x
y ppm
x mg/ml

Or

1mg/ml : 1100ppm
Y mg : X ppm

Y mg * 1100ppm = 1mg/ml * X ppm
Y mg = (1mg/ml * X ppm) / 1100ppm

y = x/1100
y mg/ml
x ppm


1mg/ml = 1100 ppm

0.5mg/ml = 550ppm

0.4mg/ml = 440ppm

0.3mg/ml = 330ppm

0.2mg/ml = 220ppm

0.1mg/ml = 110ppm


0.9090mg/ml = 1000ppm

0.4545mg/ml = 500ppm

0.3636mg/ml = 400ppm

0.31818mg/ml = 350ppm

0.295454mg/ml = 325ppm

0.2727mg/ml = 300ppm

0.227272mg/ml = 250ppm

0.204545mg/ml = 225ppm

0.1818mg/ml = 200ppm

0.113636mg/ml = 125ppm


0.37mg/ml = 407ppm

0.36mg/ml = 395ppm

0.35mg/ml = 385ppm

0.34mg/ml = 374ppm

0.33mg/ml = 363ppm

0.32mg/ml = 352ppm

0.31mg/ml = 341ppm

0.3mg/ml = 330ppm

0.29mg/ml = 319ppm

0.28mg/ml = 308ppm

0.27mg/ml = 297ppm

0.26mg/ml = 286ppm

0.25mg/ml = 275ppm

0.24mg/ml = 264ppm

0.23mg/ml = 253ppm

0.22mg/ml = 242ppm

0.21mg/ml = 231ppm

0.2mg/ml = 220ppm

0.19mg/ml = 209ppm

0.18mg/ml = 198ppm

0.17mg/ml = 187ppm

0.16mg/ml = 176ppm

0.15mg/ml = 165ppm

0.14mg/ml = 154ppm

0.135mg/ml = 148.5ppm

0.13mg/ml = 143ppm

0.12mg/ml = 132ppm

0.115mg/ml = 126.5ppm

0.11mg/ml = 121ppm

So i figure that, if you put malted barley in water with hydrogen peroxide and cover it, no bacteria and maybe no fungus (unless maybe a mycelium is dormant on the grains) will start in the sugar water, all the enzymes will leach into the water. Then you would use that for you 1:100 agbio ful-power mix and use that final volume solution for whatever you calculated you need for a GA3 ppm solution, after evaporating the acetone. (theres a chance that the 1/101, 1 from the 1:100 agbio ful-flower solition, the agbio ful-power concentrate isn't as much water as a normal part of water, i mean like the density could mess with the calculation. also with the malt too, but i think it's all probably actually not a problem.

I don't have agbio ful-power, im exited to try it. Thanks for the info everybody.

Also i think my GA3 kinda smells like cheese through the bag ha

Also for $6.89 including shipping, that could be 11.5mg/100ml 126.5ppm, 5000mg/11.5mg = 434.7826087,
434 soaks for $6.89
I think that sounds about right
869 soaks if using 50ml

I think thats reasonable

I also think a good amoint of H2O2 is required so it can be set out covered somewhere forma long time without worrying about disease, H2O2 releases O2 which keeps it from being an anaerobic bacteria breeding ground, but also keeps the bacteria in general at bay. I did this (only H2O2 water for some rare cactus seeds, and kept them in a mason jar with a white opaque cover, with a tyvek vent, under the lights forna while, in sterilized soil, and water with H2O2 drops every now and then. There is algaein there on the glass, a little, so apparantly that can survive the H2O2 somewhat, or i let it grow in a little and don't knock it out with the little bits of H2O2 watering, which i have to be carefull with because the bubbles foam up the soil and i covered/drown rotted one cacti pup.
I guess i mean that it even can be used to water and soak things, it would just wreck havok on the microbiotic scape, unless that's the goal.


I gotta say i'm stumped though, because i calculated the mols of water in a Liter at room temp, then multiplied by avagadro's number to get the number of molecules of water, then i divided it by a million and divided that by the calculated the molecules from the mols of GA3 in a so called 1000ppm solution, .9g pure GA3 /1L H2O, and i got about 46.95ppm
I wonder why? I also calculated it so the molecules of GA3 were divided by the total molecules of H2O and GA3, instead of just the solvent, H2O, still not close, about 46.95ppm (oh, so i actually realized the decimals that changed were the ones that were rounded off, so same number after significant digits lol
Either way, i don't get it. ?

Does anyone know what im doing wrong?
That or the popular use of ppm for GA3 is wrong. I'm guessing i'm muddy minded and error making.

 

[earthwyrms]

From


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=294735

!!!

12-hour pre-soak in a 1 gal. solution of:
- Coconut water (1 gal)
- Gibberellic Acid (75 ppm = roughly 1/8th tsp/gal)
- Liquid Seaweed (4 tsp/gal) (I use Neptune's Harvest, but others, e.g., KelPak, etc. fine)
- Wright's Liquid Smoke - Hickory (contains karrakinolides) (7.5 tsp/gal)

Optional additions:
- Liquid Humic/Fulvic Acid (1/4 tsp) (I use Botanicare Fulvex or Dirt M.D., but others surely fine)
- Botanicare / Liquid Karma (1/4 tsp)
- OptiFlora PreBiotic Complex (contains fructooligosaccharides, Vitamin E) (1 tbsp)
(for these next optional items, I'm using regular ol' nutritional supplements from the local pharmacy/GNC shelves (1000mg = 1g)... cut off 1/4th of tablet, throw 'em into a coffee grinder & dump ground powder into solution)
- L-Glycine Amino Acid (synergistic interaction w/ karrakinolides) (1/4 gram)
- L-Aspartic Acid (1/4 gram)
- L-Glutamic Acid (1/4 gram)
- L-Phenylaninine (1/4 gram)
- L-Lysine Amino Acid (1/4 gram)
- Thiamine/Vitamin B1 (1/4 gram)

Page 2

St. Phatty is correct, e.g., here's a thread from the Botany & Advanced Growing forum specifically dedicated to adv germ techniques ('tho it kinda petered out)...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290948

Some other tips from that thread:
- dank.frank suggested Clackamas Coot's old seed germination recipe, which had Aloe Vera juice (as part of the pre-soak solution)... I'd concur

- Father Earth pointed to an AEA product called 'Initiate', which a seed coating product designed to enhance germination (I've never used it, but FE is a knowledgeable guy)...


FWIW, Tainio has some product(s) (https://www.tainio.com/index.php?pa...lectedcategory=View All Products&pagenumber=1) that could be employed to improve germination, too, e.g., BioGenesiss III seed treatment...

- Granger2 suggests SEA-CROP® (https://www.sea-crop.com/index.htm), among other things, for the pre-soak

In this paper, the dilution rate was 200ml fresh coconut water to 220ml water...
https://www.academia.edu/4568852/OSMOCONDITIONING_SEEDS_OF_FOUR_CROP_SPECIES_USING_BOTANICAL_EXTRACTS

For aloe, it's typically a 1% solution (100:1), but I don't have any cites or references (or any particularly compelling reason) for it...

Page 3

!!!

LMAO, yeah, all that... I do stranger things, too (like Florel/ethephon).
They work for me, in the sense that I get decent germination rates, and those that do sprout seem to have decent vigor starting out... but I've never done side by side or blind trials to try to measure for statistically significant improvement, or anything like that (a) I'm lazy; b) no room)...

And I don't expect miracles... they can help break seed dormancy & stimulate a germination response, but dead is dead... if the embryo in the seed ist kaput, then nothing you throw at 'em will make the seeds germinate.

Coconut water has all sorts of good stuff...
In addition to the usual phytohormones used for rooting & cloning compounds like auxins (IAA), cytokinins (zeatin, kinetin), gibberellins (GA1, GA3), it has ABA, salicylic acid (systemic defense hormone), complex oligo / polysaccharides, vitamins, minerals, & amino acids... long history in tissue culturing... see here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40768354_The_chemical_composition_and_biological_properties_of_coconut_(Cocos_nucifera_L.)_water/links/0912f50ad7aa729a37000000
If it penetrates the seed coat & imbibes the embryo, if the embryo isn't totally dead it will get the germination machinery started.

Sorta the same for kelp extract: all sorts of auxins & ctyokinins, etc. [albeit different than what coconut water provides].

Gibberellic acid is THE standard seed germination treatment in horticulture. Too many cites to reference... Google it.

Karrakinins are a relatively recent discovery... basically, compounds in smoke (esp. of woody plants/cellulose) which have been demonstrated to promote seed germination & break dormancy (theorized to be a plant survival response to environmental smoke signalling threat). See, e.g., here: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf1041728

The Wright's Liquid Smoke contains these karrakinins (aka butenolide)... Honestly, the effect has been difficult to see, but I figure every little bit helps. In any event, it certainly hasn't hurt.

All the other stuff, who knows whether it's really helping or ??? The l-aminos all supposedly have some beneficial impact on seed germination (e.g., synergy w/ the karrakinins) or some other early seedling development benefit (cold, disease, stress tolerance). The sugars are food in case of really old, poorly stored seeds' stores being depleted. The vitamins are purportedly growth cofactors.

I haven't achieved 100% germ rates or anything like that... but I have rescued 6+ year old bagseed that was really poorly stored (exposed to all kinds of temp/humidity changes). Had half a dozen that we all thought were beyond reach, and got 3/4ths of em to pop.

YMMV.

!!!

what about this....

Or you could try Coots seed start recipe for old or difficult to germinate seeds:

12 oz. pure coconut water
1 oz. BioAg Ful-Power (pure Fulvic acid)
1 oz. Aloe vera juice

Fill to 1 gallon with the cleanest, purest water you can get your hands on.

Soak your seeds for 24 - 36 hours and then strain.

also read up on that Initiate......found this.....

https://www.advancingecoag.com/files/7914/0677/1155/Product_Briefs-initiatePDF.pdf

I had some seeds that would not pop. I read on another thread that someone suggested using small vice grips. That made sense to me, because when I tried using my teeth, I was able to crack some, but others I bit right through. Also the seeds were slippery and hard to get lined up right in my mouth to crack correctly. The other poster who mentioned small vice grips said they used a mini-pair that were only three inches long. As it happened, I had a pair of long nose 3" vice grips in the tool box, so I decided to give them a try. They work great!

The nice thing about vice grips is that you can adjust the opening so that even when fully closed there is still a gap so that the seed is not crushed. I also found it useful to use the adjustable turn screw so that the seed was held firmly in the serrated jaws of the pliers, but not so tightly as to crack the shell on the seam. Once the seed was held in the jaws of the pliers (I found that putting the seed sideways in the jaws so that the top and bottom seam fit into the small serrations in the jaws gave the most secure grip on the seed) I then carefully and gradually turned the adjustable knob on the end of the mini-vice-grip until the seam cracked open. Then I backed off on the screw and opened up the jaws and removed the now cracked seed. Using the screw to slowly increase the pressure on the seed until the seed cracked open allowed me to use the minimum pressure necessary to crack the shell so that the tap root could emerge. This works good because the seed shell I was cracking was tough and required a good deal of pressure before it would crack, but once it cracked it lost all its strength and if were not for the stop of the vice grip the same pressure that would crack the seed would also crush the insides of the now cracked seed.

I had a batch of fresh seeds that had a very hard seed coat and they were not cracking open by themselves even after prolonged soaking in warm water and being placed in damp paper towels in warm locations. But after I cracked the seed coat using the mini vice grips, they all put out a tap root and grew well.

I am very thankful for the person who first suggested using the mini-vice grips to crack the shell of tough seeds, so I thought I would pass along my own experience in the hope that others could benefit from that person's insightful idea, because I know that I would not have thought of it myself but after thinking about the idea, I could recognize that it had some advantages over using my teeth.

The seeds that I cracked using this method had already soaked for a day or so, so they were already softer than if they had been dry so I don't know how well the method would work with dry seeds that have not been soaked.

(first, maybe sand off the whole seed coat by hand/fingers, seed by seed, just in case. the one quote here mentions that there are germination inhibitors in the seed coat. Maybe abiscic acid or maybe other compound types, like the type in wheat (those are meant to wash off from rain, i believe, so that they germinate at the right time in the year after soaking and leaching multiple times or a couple maybe, after the winter and when raining more, maybe (with a temperature sensing thing, like wheat does to make antifreezes gradually to adjust to overwintering.somehow it senses it), (i don't know because snow melts multiple times and theres rain in alot of climates. but with wheat, i have to change the water multiple times or they won't sprout) ) )

 

[Sachiel]

Hey Folks,


as I just mentioned in another Thread, the reason these seeds are sprouting but not growing is not that they are dormant. Dormancy is most commonly found with plant species that live in climates with harsh winters. Their seeds only germinate if they had a cold phase (around 4°C) for some time. This ensures that the offspring wont germinate during autum an then be killed by frost in winter before they reproduce. In most species this dormancy is regulated by the interaction of giberellic acid and abiscic acid. During the cold phase (aka stratification) abiscic acid is degraded and more giberellic acid produced. As mentioned by others here already, GA3 activates the embryo´s metabolism. It begins to oxidize the carbohydrates in the cotyledons to generate Energy for germination an growth.


My point is, Cannabis seeds are not dormant. Otherwise fresh seeds wouldn´t sprout at 20°C.


The main issue with old seeds is, that over time, no matter how cold you store them, the embryo uses the energy stored within the cotyledons until it´s reserves are depleted. (cold storage slows down this process)

That is the reason why old seeds often show a little tap root and then stop. They simply don´t have more energy.
As some people already said, removing the shell manually can help. If light reaches the cotyledons, they can generate chlorophyll and start to produce energy by fotosynthesis. But, with extremely old seeds, this won´t work either because the cotyledons died already (because all cells were depleted of energy/ATP). In this case, I resort to extract the embryo from the cotyledons and nurish it artificially. This however must be done under sterile conditions, because the nutrient media contains carbohydrates and vitamins witch makes it ideal for mold as well. Usually the embryo starts growing some callus at the bottom witch turns into roots and then grows on normally. In some cases even the embryo had died patially, so I had to induce callus from whats left and then cultivate that until it was big enough to induce meristems on it. These meristems then grow into shoots, witch can be rooted, acclimatised and them be pottet.


Its a lot of work, but if the seeds showed taproots when soaked, I usually had a success rate of about 60-70%.



In the past I mainly revived seeds found in Thai and Jamaican Weed that i bought in Amsterdam. No clue how old they were by the way...


I´m sorry for this wall of text, but I didn`t know how to get it across otherwise - english is not my motherlanguage...


If you want me to elaborate on anything (e.g. media composition, subculture intervalls etc.) feel free to ask!

 

[Rico _El_Guapo]

For old beans I use,

180 grit sandpaper to scrape them a bit

5ml Neptune Harvest fish/seaweed
5ml Liquid Karma
250ml sterilized distilled water
Ph 6.3

Put in jar of some sort, away from direct light.

In 24 hours they should have cracked.

I use peat pellets once the seeds need to go into a medium.

I soak the pellets in
15ml Neptune Harvest fish/seaweed
15ml Liquid Karma
0.2 grams of Greencure
2 liters of sterilized distilled water
Ph 6.3

I always try to get the seeds into the medium before tails start shooting out. 5his method works very well for me, without having to go buy supplies

 

[Rainman]

Soak in shot glass, room temp, pure water, with a drop of Superthrive in each until they begin to split. Then paper towel method inside of DVD case and on top of the cable box until root tails begin to sprout. From there straight into cups of soil mix. Just germed some 10-20 year old seeds from the freezer. 85%success rate it's not rocket science unless you make it that.

 

[Sachiel]

Just germed some 10-20 year old seeds from the freezer. 85%success rate it's not rocket science unless you make it that.

Well, no wonder you have 85% germination if your seeds were frozen. However, most of us have trouble with seeds that were stored under questionable conditions. With those it can get a little tricky...

 

[unnamedmike]

Hey Folks,


as I just mentioned in another Thread, the reason these seeds are sprouting but not growing is not that they are dormant. Dormancy is most commonly found with plant species that live in climates with harsh winters. Their seeds only germinate if they had a cold phase (around 4°C) for some time. This ensures that the offspring wont germinate during autum an then be killed by frost in winter before they reproduce. In most species this dormancy is regulated by the interaction of giberellic acid and abiscic acid. During the cold phase (aka stratification) abiscic acid is degraded and more giberellic acid produced. As mentioned by others here already, GA3 activates the embryo´s metabolism. It begins to oxidize the carbohydrates in the cotyledons to generate Energy for germination an growth.


My point is, Cannabis seeds are not dormant. Otherwise fresh seeds wouldn´t sprout at 20°C.


The main issue with old seeds is, that over time, no matter how cold you store them, the embryo uses the energy stored within the cotyledons until it´s reserves are depleted. (cold storage slows down this process)

That is the reason why old seeds often show a little tap root and then stop. They simply don´t have more energy.
As some people already said, removing the shell manually can help. If light reaches the cotyledons, they can generate chlorophyll and start to produce energy by fotosynthesis. But, with extremely old seeds, this won´t work either because the cotyledons died already (because all cells were depleted of energy/ATP). In this case, I resort to extract the embryo from the cotyledons and nurish it artificially. This however must be done under sterile conditions, because the nutrient media contains carbohydrates and vitamins witch makes it ideal for mold as well. Usually the embryo starts growing some callus at the bottom witch turns into roots and then grows on normally. In some cases even the embryo had died patially, so I had to induce callus from whats left and then cultivate that until it was big enough to induce meristems on it. These meristems then grow into shoots, witch can be rooted, acclimatised and them be pottet.


Its a lot of work, but if the seeds showed taproots when soaked, I usually had a success rate of about 60-70%.



In the past I mainly revived seeds found in Thai and Jamaican Weed that i bought in Amsterdam. No clue how old they were by the way...


I´m sorry for this wall of text, but I didn`t know how to get it across otherwise - english is not my motherlanguage...


If you want me to elaborate on anything (e.g. media composition, subculture intervalls etc.) feel free to ask!

Hi Sachiel, thanks for the info.

Any tips in how to cleanly remove the seeds shell ?

 

[Sachiel]

Hi Sachiel, thanks for the info.

Any tips in how to cleanly remove the seeds shell ?

Hey unnamedmike,


I always use long tweezers and a thick rubberband. Just put one seed at the tweezer and and put the rubberband around the other end to put a little force on the seed. Now slowly shove the rubberband closer to the seed until it cracks. After that, I use a very thin tweezer or two needles to further open the two shells and remove the embryo.


If you are going to induce callus from the embryo it is ok if you injure the seedling during extraction. It will simply generate callus from the injured areas.

 

[unnamedmike]

Hey unnamedmike,


I always use long tweezers and a thick rubberband. Just put one seed at the tweezer and and put the rubberband around the other end to put a little force on the seed. Now slowly shove the rubberband closer to the seed until it cracks. After that, I use a very thin tweezer or two needles to further open the two shells and remove the embryo.


If you are going to induce callus from the embryo it is ok if you injure the seedling during extraction. It will simply generate callus from the injured areas.

thanks, a little patience and your technique works perfectly

 

[yts farmer]

thanks, a little patience and your technique works perfectly



View Image

Intresting, there is a guy on Instagram who manufactures a gizmo specifically for this very purpose.

It's actually called a seed cracker and is made by @woodshed13 and you can actually see a video of the seed cracker in action.

Peace.

 

[Illuminate]

Nice work guys, im looking to get sprouting in the northern spring so thanks for sharing.

 

[Sachiel]

thanks, a little patience and your technique works perfectly

Hey, I´m happy to hear it worked for you. What kind of seed was that? The translucent parts seem dead already. The more white-ish parts should be suitable to induce callus from.

 

[unnamedmike]

Hey, I´m happy to hear it worked for you. What kind of seed was that? The translucent parts seem dead already. The more white-ish parts should be suitable to induce callus from.

the Embryo in picture is mexican bagseed, this seed "lot" don't pop up just soaking in water or another way. I have other mexican bagseed lot that germ 100% to compare.

What pgr do you use to induce callus ? IBA+TDZ ?

Im starting in tissue culture, any advice is very welcome

 

[Mate Dave]

Wooo Wooo or Choo Choo hype train



Using Ga3 on old seeds is foolish. Idiotic & laughable..

The seed has only so much respiration capability & the GA3 only elongates the root in live or dead seeds. This elongation is due to the hormone not it's ability to bring vital nutrients to make a plant from an embryo who's endosperm has been used up in storage or mistreatment. No level of hormone replacement is going to work on these seeds.. Dream on.


I am actively studying cannabis @ a high level of understanding of the plant processes & I have old seeds that crack but do not germinate.

This is unavoidable even with proper aftercare from the mother plant, it is the end of the line for those seeds.

No amount of tissue culture will save a seed lot. Read the fundamental principles of micropropagation.

Furthermore have there been any successful regeneration of 2000 year old seeds of any genus?

What about revival of younger seeds that made it to be p1's of cannabis cup winners of today?

Name a clone that was obtained from GA3 application to a seed..

I'll wait..

 

[Illuminate]

Did you read the thread dave, or just the title.

 

[Mate Dave]

I followed it for the year it's been going dude. Kept out of it. Done a years research, experimented myself & spoke to a seed biology lab..