Fundamentally understanding soil components

[Microbeman]

Sweetdog. That is not the issue. Unless you were there best to be mum.

 

[Sweetdog760]

Probably best. Didn't mean to derail the thread more than it already was. I liked your podcast interview by the way. Good stuff.

 

[dank.frank]

KIS - We should talk. Sincerely.

I've talked with Microbeman on a couple occasions about this and honestly, I really HAVE tried to move past it. I've tried, out of my immense respect for him.

It's funny, how magnanimous an interaction can be for one person and so utterly forgettable for another. I don't mean that as a slight, but merely as a whimsical observation of humanity.

Honestly, I get tired of harping on it. I get tired of finding myself circling back to that. I took a long break from the forums for this exact reason - to heal and NOT be a cancer that becomes detrimental to others learning. It's immensely frustrating, to feel - stuck. I only feel that way, because I was wronged. I feel that way because there has never been any closure. I feel that way because your cohorts and associates of that day drug me up one side of the road and down the other, simply because I chose to be a non-conformist and wouldn't jump on board the ROLS train. (and the only reason for that was I couldn't stand the constant condescending tone - which is exactly what I meant about becoming what I hated) I'll never claim to be perfect.

TRULY though, it's so petty of me at this point. I'll admit that, in the name of fairness and honesty. I sincerely and publicly apologize and I promise I'm working on it.

I'll drop you a PM.



dank.Frank

 

[h.h.]

Fundamentally understanding SOUL components.

Recycling Organic Living Soil
(Too many acronyms. I get lost.)
By the sound of it, I follow that philosophy with the occasional shot of Espoma.


Its all good.
Tads a good man. Works hard to get it right. I'm sure that's represented in his products. Though I don't buy from him, I believe customer education is important and I see an honest attempt.

 

[St. Phatty]

So what do you guys think of Bio-dynamic ?

I think it's a catchy phrase that helps sell seminar seats.

e.g. PeakProsperity has one of their West Coast seminars this year at a farm in Sebastopol that is not only Organic, it's Bio-dynamic.

OOOH, Yes, I'll pay twice as much ! /sarc

They're charging PeakProsperity Yuppies $200 a day to walk around a small organic farm.

If anything it's a testament to the marketing genius of Chris Martenson.

 

[h.h.]

Biodynamics got so much right and so much wrong.

At least by our present day understandings.
Would we be where we are now without Dr. Steiner?
Probably. Maybe further down the road. He was on the wrong path.

 

[KIS]

Biodynamics got so much right and so much wrong.

At least by our present day understandings.
Would we be where we are now without Dr. Steiner?
Probably. Maybe further down the road. He was on the wrong path.

Well stated, I feel the exact same way.

 

[KIS]

KIS - We should talk. Sincerely.

I've talked with Microbeman on a couple occasions about this and honestly, I really HAVE tried to move past it. I've tried, out of my immense respect for him.

It's funny, how magnanimous an interaction can be for one person and so utterly forgettable for another. I don't mean that as a slight, but merely as a whimsical observation of humanity.

Honestly, I get tired of harping on it. I get tired of finding myself circling back to that. I took a long break from the forums for this exact reason - to heal and NOT be a cancer that becomes detrimental to others learning. It's immensely frustrating, to feel - stuck. I only feel that way, because I was wronged. I feel that way because there has never been any closure. I feel that way because your cohorts and associates of that day drug me up one side of the road and down the other, simply because I chose to be a non-conformist and wouldn't jump on board the ROLS train. (and the only reason for that was I couldn't stand the constant condescending tone - which is exactly what I meant about becoming what I hated) I'll never claim to be perfect.

TRULY though, it's so petty of me at this point. I'll admit that, in the name of fairness and honesty. I sincerely and publicly apologize and I promise I'm working on it.

I'll drop you a PM.



dank.Frank

Frank,

I feel like you may be putting me in a camp that I don't necessarily feel like I associate or relate to, but shoot me a DM and we can talk. Regardless, I'm sorry that you feel this way, that's not a good feeling to hold on to.

 

[ReikoX]

I'm here for the knowledge, is getting good.

 

[art.spliff]

Scored a dozen large bags of timothy hay bunny compost yesterday.

 

[h.h.]

Scored a dozen large bags of timothy hay bunny compost yesterday.

Bedding or compost?


I wonder if one could make a tea from the bedding, how it would work?
I have several bags. Woodchips, not timothy hay.
Soak them to extract the urine. The timothy hay would be a bonus.

 

[h.h.]

https://www.monitor.co.ug/Magazines...abbit-urine-/689860-4054392-dbawgz/index.html

 

[Microbeman]

poor rabbits

 

[h.h.]

poor rabbits

I don't endorse or recommended that method.

I get a lot of used rabbit bedding though. Urine soaked woodchips.
If I gave it a brief soaking, and maybe pull the goodies out of it.
Actually thinking more of the previous post with Timothy hay bedding.


They're using EM-4 and fermenting it as well.


I'm using all of mine for mulch.
Mixing it in with horse and llama manure and leaves.
Folks just throw this stuff away. Go figure.

 

[Microbeman]

I don't endorse or recommended that method.

I get a lot of used rabbit bedding though. Urine soaked woodchips.
If I gave it a brief soaking, and maybe pull the goodies out of it.
Actually thinking more of the previous post with Timothy hay bedding.


They're using EM-4 and fermenting it as well.


I'm using all of mine for mulch.
Mixing it in with horse and llama manure and leaves.
Folks just throw this stuff away. Go figure.

I saw that.....whatever they are calling EM-4

https://www.scribd.com/document/205100790/Introduction-to-Effective-Microorganisms-Em-Vinny-Pinto

As noted earlier, the name most commonly used worldwide by EMRO andsome of their licensees since late 2002 for their EM microbialinoculant product has been the (EMRO) trademarked name of EM·1, oftenaccompanied by their trademarked EM·1 logo (consisting of severallarge green dots forming a semi-circle.) Hence, if the EM or EM-likemicrobial inoculant product which you purchase bears the name EM·1,and is accompanied by the trademarked EM·1 logo, you may be quite sure that you are purchasing an EM microbial product which has ben producedby EMRO or one of it's licensees. Further, to comply with various government regulatory requirements,especially in the USA, the basic EM·1 name, as employed by EMRO, has been furthter differentiated into several individual label names, suchas:EM·1 Microbial InoculantEM·1 Soil AmendmentEM·1 Waste TreatmentEM·1 Septic Waste Treatment and possibly more variant label names as time passes, all to cmply with varous regulatory requirements for product lagels.. Each of these EMRO labels contain exactly the same microbial product, but simply bottled under different labels for various regulatory compliance reaons. The issue of culture uniformity across labels will be discused in further detail in a section a bit below this one.... And, the issue of different labels with respect to local and national laws, regulations and regulatory compliance is discussed in a much later section named:Bottle Labels, Labeling, Uses and Local Regulations and Laws (a big one!)plus National, State/Province Regulations and Regulatory Compliance Remember - EMRO's Culture Product is Now Known as EM·1

By late 2002, EMRO offices worldwide officially decided to change the prefix [EM1 or EM2 or EM-1 or EM-1, etc.] prefix for all their microbial inoculant culture products to " EM·1" . This EM·1 symbol(often used as a prefix to the full product name) has now been trademarked worldwide. The dot in the symbol does not reporduce well in many electronic formats, and so you may sometimes catch me writing"EM1" or "EM-1" instead of EM·1, and worse, the EM·1 name will oftenshow up as "EM 1" or "EM?1" in many e-mail programs and readers, since they cannot properly display the dot. So, What are EM-2, EM-3 and EM-4? At one time, the product was primarily marketed as separate microbial products called EM-2 (mostly the yeasts and related organisms), EM-3(mostly the phototrophic and related organims) and EM-4 (the lacticacid bacteria). All three are now rolled up into the single EM·1product (with variant label versions) discussed immediately above, meaning that the organisms which were in EM-2, EM-3 and EM-4 are now all rolled up together in EM·1 (aka EM1 or EM-1 or EM.1 or a dozen other names....) There are, however, still a number of regions of theworld where EM may still be marketed separately as EM-1, EM-2, EM-3,and EM-4.

What is EM-5? EM-5, aka EM5, is a special agricultural brew, consisting of EM·1(aka EM-1, etc.) fermented with various specified plant products, such as red chili pepper, and applied to plants as a pest and fungal deterrent. The exact formula may be found on many EM-related websites, and on some official EM websites. Typically, a farmer will brew up a liquid fermented EM mix using various herbs, and then apply this mix to plants as a pest deterrent. A related product, also for agricultural use, is often called EM Fermented Plant Extract

https://www.teraganix.com/EM5-Receipe-s/260.htm

I see that BAS has an EM5 product with ingredients listed.

For what its worth I've had no success using EM5 fermentations to control bugs or pathogens but had minor suppressive powdery mildew effects fermenting with EM1 and fine ground pyrophyllite and soft rock phosphate (not worth the effort however).

Sorry for going so far off topic.

 

[h.h.]

I see a lot of similar formulations out now.
I think they work well if you want to preload your soil with fermented kelp or soybean meal.
At the same time they kind of miss the point of having slow release amendments.
A combination of both seems to do well. Gets harder and harder to calculate.
Then after you use it a couple times, it really don't matter what I put in it for food.

More worried about soil structure.

I think.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Hey guys. I used the search and really came up with nothing. Maybe because I’m a rookie and probably don’t know the vocabulary well.

Allow me to preface that this is my first grow. I wish to not buy prepackaged soil/soiless medium because I simply want a better understanding of what I’m doing.

I want to build my own soil and I see several recipes on here with feeding guidelines but what I’m trying to understand is; how are you getting to that point of saying that’s the percentage of what you want in your soil and know that your pH level and nutrient levels are going to hit their marks without “seasoning” the soil with all types of products.

In the audio engineering world we have a saying “You can’t polish a turd.” Well I don’t want my soil to be a turd. I want it to be as good as it possibly can be, from the start.

Is there a program that’s make for soil recipes that can calculate and populate the nutrient volumes of what I’m adding/subtracting from the recipe? Kinda like BeerSmith for brewing beer but for building soil!

I hope I didn’t sound so recklessly amateur in my post. Grow stores are already annoying me by selling me kits which I don’t want a magic bottle solution. I’m trying to learn as much as I can.

If you're into building organic soils or soilless substrates, check out the works of:

The Rev
Subcool
Clackamas Coot

The Rev also has a book out (2nd edition) called True Living Organics. It has an excellent description of all the major nutrients available in various organic materials.

https://www.amazon.com/True-Living-Organics-All-Natural-2016-10-11/dp/B01NGZR80F/

Organic Soil Recipe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVo7rAMK4Q

https://www.youtube.com/user/subcool420
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=subcool+supersoil

I would like to add on top of that, that a major component of the natural process is the energy (calories) that allow fungi to move essentially inert building blocks into the plant, and collect sugar from the plant. These calories are from seeds, fruits, nuts in the form of fat, protein and carbohydrates. The plant needs NPK etc, and the fungus needs fiber (carbon) and calories, like people and animals. You feed the fungi the way nature does, by dropping stuff on top of the soil and covering it with carbon/leaves/mulch.

Soil is made of rock of various sizes (rock, sand, silt and clay) and carbon (humus), and with the addition of water and calories, you get a soil with living organisms in it.

In TLC/Supersoil/etc. growing, most of the work is done up front, and the grow should be as trouble free as possible, and will be mainly checking that the environment is right (humidity, temperatures at the leaf level, airflow), and adjusting with extra nutrients a few times as the plant transitions from one phase to another - usually germination to seedling (extra P/K and Mg), and vegging to flowering, when more magnesium, phosphorus and root space are required.

In mid-flower, there is an increased need for potassium, silica, sulphur, calcium and trace elements. The plant needs fresh water right through flowering. (See The Rev's containers.) When the water runs out and the hairs start to die off, water should be decreased to eliminated.

-------

On the other hand, if this is your first grow, and you just want minimal complications, just grow in coco coir, buy the nutrient line the company recommends and use that as a starting point. (Don't buy the root stimulator, that's what flowering food is for.)

 

[h.h.]

One must ask themselves why?

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Don't want to throw fuel on the fire or anything but I saw that my man Tad was talked about in a way I 100% cannot confirm.


Just wanted to chime in with my own experience with him and adjust the way people potentially look at him and KIS organics due to what has been said here.


I contacted Tad last year because I was looking for help in deciding which plot of land to buy to potentially build my farm on down the road and needed help with the soil analysis and deciding which plot of land had the best soil. As well as overall "what to consider" when buying a plot of land to build a canna farm on (slopes, water supply, plot orientation etc. etc. etc.).


Tad chimed in in a thread where I laid out my problems and challenges and asking for help. He then graciously offered to talk via email, he offered advice on how to go about a soil test, what to test for, how to choose a lab, how to interpret it etc. etc. and then ultimately, when I had the soil analysis, he let me send it to him and looked over it and discussed it a little with me, all the while always letting me know that he isn't a god of soil or anything so he feels a little uncomfortable in me basing my decision of which land to buy on his recommendation/interpretation of the soil analysis. Which I assured him I don't, he is a highly valued source of input but I ultimately make my own decision.





All the while he knew that I am in Europe and have no way of ordering any supplies from his business and knowing that he likely will never earn a penny from me, simply due to distance in location.
The best he could potentially "get out of me" would be having a guest for a podcast episode if my project works out and I actually start the farm (which is far from guaranteed), a shoutout here or there and maybe a contact in a nice country for a future visit or so.
Not exactly the tangible assets or compensation a shrewd business man would be looking for when dealing with people ...






From what I could gather in our conversation, he simply helped me because he could and it didn't cost him too much and I got to "know" him as a person who sees the value in doing these sort of things even without monetary compensation. It could have a pay-off of a good "business"-relationship in the future or it could have no pay-off whatsoever.




I cannot comment on things in the past but as it stands today, Tad didn't strike me, in no way shape or form, as someone who only does things if there is a pay-off for him involved.

 

[Thcvhunter]

I really wouldn’t recommend Rev or Subcool, they are both clowns in the industry.

CC says some good stuff, but its not gospel.
And his mix is for OD in southern Oregon, so its too hot for most gardens.

Jeff Lowenfells is a great source for beginners. Id recommend him over the other three.

If you're into building organic soils or soilless substrates, check out the works of:

The Rev
Subcool
Clackamas Coot

The Rev also has a book out (2nd edition) called True Living Organics. It has an excellent description of all the major nutrients available in various organic materials.

https://www.amazon.com/True-Living-Organics-All-Natural-2016-10-11/dp/B01NGZR80F/

Organic Soil Recipe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVo7rAMK4Q

https://www.youtube.com/user/subcool420
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=subcool+supersoil

I would like to add on top of that, that a major component of the natural process is the energy (calories) that allow fungi to move essentially inert building blocks into the plant, and collect sugar from the plant. These calories are from seeds, fruits, nuts in the form of fat, protein and carbohydrates. The plant needs NPK etc, and the fungus needs fiber (carbon) and calories, like people and animals. You feed the fungi the way nature does, by dropping stuff on top of the soil and covering it with carbon/leaves/mulch.

Soil is made of rock of various sizes (rock, sand, silt and clay) and carbon (humus), and with the addition of water and calories, you get a soil with living organisms in it.

In TLC/Supersoil/etc. growing, most of the work is done up front, and the grow should be as trouble free as possible, and will be mainly checking that the environment is right (humidity, temperatures at the leaf level, airflow), and adjusting with extra nutrients a few times as the plant transitions from one phase to another - usually germination to seedling (extra P/K and Mg), and vegging to flowering, when more magnesium, phosphorus and root space are required.

In mid-flower, there is an increased need for potassium, silica, sulphur, calcium and trace elements. The plant needs fresh water right through flowering. (See The Rev's containers.) When the water runs out and the hairs start to die off, water should be decreased to eliminated.

-------

On the other hand, if this is your first grow, and you just want minimal complications, just grow in coco coir, buy the nutrient line the company recommends and use that as a starting point. (Don't buy the root stimulator, that's what flowering food is for.)