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Fundamentally understanding soil components
- Thread starter xBOBxSAGETx
- Start date
AgentPothead
Just this guy, ya know?
I don't think I can add anything which hasn't already been said better than I could, but I will reiterate soil test. It gives you hard numbers to work off of.
IF only those "pre-mixed" formulas actually WORKED as advertised. Those formulas are built and based off bro science and the current trendy ingredients at the time. Nothing more.
It does little good to use those mixes if you have no idea what to do when they fail, whether that be the first round or the third. There are FAR too many posts in these forums discussing the minor issues that have arisen from those mixes.
The BAS mix, based on Coots and Gascan ultimately, worked so poorly the whole crew started promoting bottled foliar sprays as necessary to get the plants to perform right - I mean, "to their full potential"... ROFL. There is only how many modified and various alterations made to that formula across the several hundred pages of it's pre-launch promotion?
Better to teach a man to fish - the only people who think otherwise stand to make $$$$ off your consumer dependence.
dank.Frank
It does little good to use those mixes if you have no idea what to do when they fail, whether that be the first round or the third. There are FAR too many posts in these forums discussing the minor issues that have arisen from those mixes.
The BAS mix, based on Coots and Gascan ultimately, worked so poorly the whole crew started promoting bottled foliar sprays as necessary to get the plants to perform right - I mean, "to their full potential"... ROFL. There is only how many modified and various alterations made to that formula across the several hundred pages of it's pre-launch promotion?
Better to teach a man to fish - the only people who think otherwise stand to make $$$$ off your consumer dependence.
dank.Frank
Yes it sure got complicated since the days of compost - topsoil - peat moss - sand/gravel; topdress with horseshit and apply ACT once the plants are growing.
Sand is heavy and doesn't add aeration or drainage does it? 100% sand or sandy soil drains well but sand doesn't help clay soil from what I understand. Any bulk source of organic matter like plant and manure compost is what you want.
xBOBxSAGETx
New member
So when I first started researching I was basically following everything Jeremy was saying from BAS but I realized that his soil is basically the coots mix like you said. Then I remembered that he runs a business and makes money selling me. I stepped away from his advice. These companies and people are so intoxicating from my rookie perspective. They sell these hopes and dreams like Pryamid Schemes lol.
So let’s say I build a soil, send it in for lab testing and it totally sucks, how do I know how to amend what’s wrong with my soil? Does the company who does the soil test for me tell me what to do? That’s where I’m lost.
Why isn’t there a company out there already that sells the perfect soil? SHEESH
xBOBxSAGETx
New member
Denver, CO
That would be why I suggested you read my current thread that I linked to previously. The first 20 pages or so are mostly soil talk without a single plant picture. The thread address that very issue you are having.
I'm not telling you to read the thread to get the soil recipe I posted there. I'm telling you to read the thread to understand the process I went through to arrive at that recipe. All the mathematical formulas are posted and instructions on how to use them as well. Full transparency.
Part of the reason for going into such a depth about the topic is to help organic growers stop guessing when it comes to re-amending the soil. Soil test only serves to help you understand what is there. If you don't test again after each flowering cycle, you don't know what was removed or what to add back. It's not a magic wand. It's data. It's information for you to assimilate into something meaningful. The more data you collect, the more clear the picture becomes of what is taking place.
If you only knew the thousands I have spent on soil tests over the last two decades to figure all this out. Trial and error. You learn more by doing than you do by theorizing. Get growing. Start screwing things up so you can learn how not to the next time.
And read the thread. LOL.
dank.Frank
I'm not telling you to read the thread to get the soil recipe I posted there. I'm telling you to read the thread to understand the process I went through to arrive at that recipe. All the mathematical formulas are posted and instructions on how to use them as well. Full transparency.
Part of the reason for going into such a depth about the topic is to help organic growers stop guessing when it comes to re-amending the soil. Soil test only serves to help you understand what is there. If you don't test again after each flowering cycle, you don't know what was removed or what to add back. It's not a magic wand. It's data. It's information for you to assimilate into something meaningful. The more data you collect, the more clear the picture becomes of what is taking place.
If you only knew the thousands I have spent on soil tests over the last two decades to figure all this out. Trial and error. You learn more by doing than you do by theorizing. Get growing. Start screwing things up so you can learn how not to the next time.
And read the thread. LOL.
dank.Frank
I included BAS amendments out of generosity. I wanted to highlight that there were several brands beside the one in the previous post.
I don't reamend. I top/side dress. Easier for me.
You can feed your soil or you can teach your soil to feed itself.
The ability to accept and hold nutrients rather than just throwing in a bunch of food. If that makes any kind of sense.
I don't reamend. I top/side dress. Easier for me.
You can feed your soil or you can teach your soil to feed itself.
The ability to accept and hold nutrients rather than just throwing in a bunch of food. If that makes any kind of sense.
You're all good, h.h.
I need to hold my tongue more when it comes to those mixes as they ARE valid consumer options. I'm bitter about stuff that happened nearly a decade ago and it would do my soul well to just let it go. (I try to be honest, even when it's not flattering to myself.)
If I had to pick, KIS > BAS. I still have the post where the owner of BAS got all excited because he was launching his company about the same time the ROLS group was trying to get all their names published in a High Times article glorifying their ways. The only thing Jeremy had to say - ohhhh, ohhhh, pick me. Send them all my way!!!!
For him, it has always been, day one about getting people to give him their money. I don't honestly think that I can say the same about Tad. He at least wants to help people; I just hate he had to undermine me to do so. But, that type of back-biting was all too common in the private organic groups. Everyone vying for their opinion to be the authority on all things.
h.h. - you were in the groups. You know I'm not wrong or exaggerating. It was a toxic environment and it nearly ruined my love of growing.
I need to be careful, in hindsight, to not become what I despise. I should encourage people to try new things. If it doesn't work out for them trying these products, I'm not to blame. I suppose that is part of the learning curve as well.
dank.Frank
I need to hold my tongue more when it comes to those mixes as they ARE valid consumer options. I'm bitter about stuff that happened nearly a decade ago and it would do my soul well to just let it go. (I try to be honest, even when it's not flattering to myself.)
If I had to pick, KIS > BAS. I still have the post where the owner of BAS got all excited because he was launching his company about the same time the ROLS group was trying to get all their names published in a High Times article glorifying their ways. The only thing Jeremy had to say - ohhhh, ohhhh, pick me. Send them all my way!!!!
For him, it has always been, day one about getting people to give him their money. I don't honestly think that I can say the same about Tad. He at least wants to help people; I just hate he had to undermine me to do so. But, that type of back-biting was all too common in the private organic groups. Everyone vying for their opinion to be the authority on all things.
h.h. - you were in the groups. You know I'm not wrong or exaggerating. It was a toxic environment and it nearly ruined my love of growing.
I need to be careful, in hindsight, to not become what I despise. I should encourage people to try new things. If it doesn't work out for them trying these products, I'm not to blame. I suppose that is part of the learning curve as well.
dank.Frank
St. Phatty
Active member
Paradoxically, some of the best soil inputs available are turds.
If you can find the book, I suggest finding out what textbook is used in university Soil Science classes, then trying to get a copy of that, preferably used.
I learned hot composting from a semi-retired Berkeley soil science prof., who was running the 22 acre facility in Sonoma County.
They had access to chicken turds & ground up dead chickens from all the poultry facilities. Those dead chickens smell WAY WORSE than anything a turd can conjure up smell-wise.
But after 10 weeks of composting, it all smells like primo soil, with a primo NPK balance.
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I think I was named in that HT article as someone experimenting with no-till and lumped in with Blue-Jay, when I actually had been using it for years. I certainly didn't ask to be in the article. I did point out that the flower they pictured in the article had botrytis....pretty funny.
I honestly think you are a little over-shooting how Tad began working on soil mixes. He honestly does not remember you but perhaps it was subconsciously assimilated. I know he approached me about working on ingredients but I was not really into that and suggested he work with Coot. BTW, Tad was selling brewers, compost and ACT ingredients before I came on his scene.
By group, do you mean The Organic Fanatic Collective?
Frank,
To this day, I really have no idea why you have this grudge against me. My soil mixes came from open conversations on this forum, a ton of reading and research, and long conversations with Coot and Microbeman. I then took all the amendments I had accessed to and started experimenting. Honestly I feel like I got pretty luck on the first iteration and have just been refining it over the years. Whatever you feel I did to undermine you, I'd love to get out there and move past it. I'm sorry you feel that way, that's not a good feeling.
I've tried really hard to build a positive reputation for both myself and my company in this industry. I do agree this industry is full of less than honorable people and companies. If you want to have a phone conversation or try and hash it out via DM, I'm open to trying again.
To this day, I really have no idea why you have this grudge against me. My soil mixes came from open conversations on this forum, a ton of reading and research, and long conversations with Coot and Microbeman. I then took all the amendments I had accessed to and started experimenting. Honestly I feel like I got pretty luck on the first iteration and have just been refining it over the years. Whatever you feel I did to undermine you, I'd love to get out there and move past it. I'm sorry you feel that way, that's not a good feeling.
I've tried really hard to build a positive reputation for both myself and my company in this industry. I do agree this industry is full of less than honorable people and companies. If you want to have a phone conversation or try and hash it out via DM, I'm open to trying again.
I'm attaching two soil tests of our Commercial Growers Mix from Logan Labs. This test is a good way to see everything that's in the soil, it does NOT tell you what's currently available to the plant right now. You can get your own test with Logan for $25 to compare to these results. If you go with a different lab, your numbers will change too, as there is some variability across labs.
However, these tests can give you some basic target levels for nutrients relative to what the test recommends. For example, I like to run K about double what they recommend for base saturation % with cannabis. The one thing I would lower on these tests would be sodium, but cannabis can tolerate it. I would also raise the Mn, B, Cu, and Zn slightly, but this gets tricky when mixing 100 yards at a time and I don't like to add manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, etc...because many organic folks have issues with it.
It really just depends on your approach, but I hope this is helpful. Most importantly, focus on getting good compost or earthworm castings in your mix, so you have good biological activity and diversity. This is super important if you want these nutrients to be available to the plant.
Happy growing!
However, these tests can give you some basic target levels for nutrients relative to what the test recommends. For example, I like to run K about double what they recommend for base saturation % with cannabis. The one thing I would lower on these tests would be sodium, but cannabis can tolerate it. I would also raise the Mn, B, Cu, and Zn slightly, but this gets tricky when mixing 100 yards at a time and I don't like to add manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, etc...because many organic folks have issues with it.
It really just depends on your approach, but I hope this is helpful. Most importantly, focus on getting good compost or earthworm castings in your mix, so you have good biological activity and diversity. This is super important if you want these nutrients to be available to the plant.
Happy growing!
Attachments
I was in the forum not the ROLs group.
I followed them a little bit. Figured most of it was a bunch of hogwash.
Things here got somewhat single minded, so I left. A bit commercialized.
We have to broaden our scope though.
"Bro science" is a better term than "stoner science".
I believe in stoner science. Its how it was done in the old days. Kept the farmers fed while all the bro scientists were going hungry.
You prove it out in real life.
You learn who to follow.
I followed them a little bit. Figured most of it was a bunch of hogwash.
Things here got somewhat single minded, so I left. A bit commercialized.
We have to broaden our scope though.
"Bro science" is a better term than "stoner science".
I believe in stoner science. Its how it was done in the old days. Kept the farmers fed while all the bro scientists were going hungry.
You prove it out in real life.
You learn who to follow.
Sweetdog760
Member
Bob- just Google "buy compost near me" theres tons of good supply companies in your area. BAS is somewhere in Colorado but theres tons of other ones. Theres lots of rock quarries in your area too. Lots of Basalt in Colorado. Or if you just need a small amount you can buy it from one of these organic supply stores and save your self the trip. I was going to link some but theres lots of them.
On another note I think its pretty ridiculous that anyone here would be upset with any company (be it KIS, or BAS, or whatever) for any reason. These guys supply a market with demand. Thats what all businesses do. I dont understand why it would matter if they were part of this forum, or even if they learned everything they know from other people here. Thats the whole purpose of this place. If They took free info and found a way to monetize it then good for them. Thats the American dream. I'd love to make my living working in the organic industry.. The fact is that because of social media forums are slowly dieing out. KIS and BAS are doing alot for the organic cannabis industry from spreading knowledge to supplying goods. Since when did making money become "evil." I'm pretty sure the the money making factor is whats been fueling the entire industry since way back in the 60s. Anyways... Rant over. Love, peace, and chicken grease.
On another note I think its pretty ridiculous that anyone here would be upset with any company (be it KIS, or BAS, or whatever) for any reason. These guys supply a market with demand. Thats what all businesses do. I dont understand why it would matter if they were part of this forum, or even if they learned everything they know from other people here. Thats the whole purpose of this place. If They took free info and found a way to monetize it then good for them. Thats the American dream. I'd love to make my living working in the organic industry.. The fact is that because of social media forums are slowly dieing out. KIS and BAS are doing alot for the organic cannabis industry from spreading knowledge to supplying goods. Since when did making money become "evil." I'm pretty sure the the money making factor is whats been fueling the entire industry since way back in the 60s. Anyways... Rant over. Love, peace, and chicken grease.
Sweetdog760
Member
Is that directed at me? If so I'm not following you.
