Finished my run with the 315w CMH. Week sauce!

[gaiusmarius]

i normally set my rooms up with tables that are 1 meter wide and 1.5 meters long for every 600 watts. in this case my table is 1 meter by 2 meters with 10 cm space on each end. so it's a bit over kill imo. of course some like to run 1 600 per 1 sq meter, but those end up being harder to make the 1 gpw mark then if you give each light 1.5 meters of table length per light. thats just me, i know there are many ways people approach it.

 

[Dirt Bag]

So, like 7 day sauce? That must be some seriously thick sauce!

 

[Substitute]

A friend has/had my old setup..for years. A 6.5x6.5x6.5 Lighthouse Hydro tent with 4 600 watt air cooled hps lamps. 2 465 cfm 6" inline fans sucking out a wooded over basement window...one for each "set" of 2 lamps. Another 465 cfm 6" with ducting for tent ventilation connected to an old CAP air 3 climate controller with timed co2 injections (not ideal but it works...the tent fan hardly comes on because of the efficient almost straight air cooled hood ducting which is insulated as well as the insulated covers for the hoods themselves) All fans are outside the tent as well. Plus a smaller tent with 3 6 bulb 4 foot t5's for constant 18-6 veg. A very nice setup that served me well. I and my buddy consistently pulled 16 to 18 and sometimes 20 ounces per lamp every 65 days depending on strain and how detailed we got with topping and canopy management. ...an often overlooked aspect to get alot of bud when strain selection amd room environment is dialed in. Anyways said buddy recently replaced all 4 sixers with 4 Sun Systems 315 watt "LEC" fixtures. The vertical ones (imho better than horizontal for this bulb/lamp) with attached ballast. Hes ran i think 4 or 5 crops pretty consistently changing nothing but the fixtures and the stupid ducting (i loath aircooled hoods and duct work for anything above a couple lamps in a small hobby setup or tent). His weights are 13 to 16 ounces per lamp now with slightly quicker harvest times at every 60 days or so depending on the same stable of strains. Which are the common ones like Blue Dream..Glue...Og Kush and the offshoots/variations of those strains. He kept the old sixers about 24 inches from canopy...the 315's about 18 inches. Ots warmer in there for obvious reasons and the climate controller /vent fan pretty much runs more but the temps are not that much higher...say 82 tops in the warmest months. So what we gathered from all this is no....they are not 600 watt equivalent (and certainly not 1000 watt - cmon you people!!!) nor do they cover 4x4 (again - cmon) but they will cover 7 to 9 square feet and where they really excel is (like all lamps..especially double ended) in multiple lamp steups with overlap. And the plants themselves. ...wow.....much more like outdoor with stronger branching and just more overall vigor. But with that indoor frosty quality and smell. With these fixtures you can really see hps lamps (as the sole source of light) shortcomings. Afterall....hps lamps (and hid lamps in general) were NEVER meant to be the only source. Always meant for SUPPLAMENTAP lighting in greenhouses in areas of the world with many overcast days throughout the year (i.e Europe). All in all yes..lower yields but only slightly. Higher and noticeable quality. But the real kicker for this whole post is this....INSTEAD OF 2400 WATTS OF FLOWERING LIGHT. ...ITS JUST OVER HAOF THAT NOW!!!! Its a no brainer. 400 to 600 a month in electricity is now 250 to 300 bucks a month. And hes not losing that much at harvest. About 65 to 75 ounces with the sixers and about 55 to 65 ounces with the cmh fixtures.

This was exactly my experience, at which point I asked myself why am I growing pot. The answer was quality not quantity.

I could care less about a slight power/yield loss as I don't rely on selling mediocre weed to pay my mortgage.

But I know a lot of people do.

 

[Muleskinner]

these CMH threads do seem to run on and on and get very passionate!

Don't understand it myself - CMH seems like a really good wagon wheel that came out just as everyone was switching to automobiles. If you're using HPS now the best upgrade is to LED, not another HID bulb IMO. LED's blow away CMH along with all the other bulbs on efficiency, longevity, safety, reliablity, cooling, etc.

 

[Dirt Bag]

these CMH threads do seem to run on and on and get very passionate!

Don't understand it myself - CMH seems like a really good wagon wheel that came out just as everyone was switching to automobiles. If you're using HPS now the best upgrade is to LED, not another HID bulb IMO. LED's blow away CMH along with all the other bulbs on efficiency, longevity, safety, reliablity, cooling, etc.

What LEDs lack is power. They do not penetrate the canopy nearly as well as HIDs. Don't get me wrong, they're great for some things, cuttings, SOG, lettuce, and other short leafy plants, but they are far from ideal for trees.

 

[gaiusmarius]

these CMH threads do seem to run on and on and get very passionate!

Don't understand it myself - CMH seems like a really good wagon wheel that came out just as everyone was switching to automobiles. If you're using HPS now the best upgrade is to LED, not another HID bulb IMO. LED's blow away CMH along with all the other bulbs on efficiency, longevity, safety, reliablity, cooling, etc.

show me that led light please, but it also must penetrate the canopy, no-one wants plants with only 20 cm of nice nugs at the top.

seen a few nice grows from leds, but they were always self made led systems. even the best ones don't penetrate the canopy like hps though. still waiting for that lamp.

 

[Muleskinner]

OK first of all my Gavita 600w HPS (400v model) penetrated FAR better down into the canopy than 2 315W CMH - I did a directt comparison in 4x4 tents.

Secondly, to say that LED cannot penetrate as well as HPS means you don't know much about LED options. I'm using P.L. Light Hortiled Top lamps with 80 degree beam angle - they are 320 watt lights and ONE of them penetrates to the lower canopy better than 600w of HPS or 630 of CMH. 80 degree beam angle is tight! This lamp was specifically designed for cannabis horticulture and deep penetration into flowering cannabis crops. CMH and HPS were designed for lighting warehouses and streets.

LED lights can work however you want -beam angle and penetration is not related to efficiency. P.L. Light offers either 150 or 80 degree beam angle. All HPS/HID lighting has 180 degree beam angle.

These threads that roll on an on are just so pointless, nobody seems to know anything about professional horticultural lighting. It sounds like you guys are debating circa 2010, not 2018. Companies like P.L. Light, Fluence, Illumitex, Philips Greenpower, Lumigrow, they've all completely surpassed HID lighting in every possible way. The fixtures will last 5-10 years with no bulb changes and getting close to twice the efficiency of HID.

Even DIY 3000K or 3500K LED's with COBs or strips are now approaching 3.0 umol/j and CMH and HPS will never get past 1.8 or 1.9 umol/j, and the basic 3500K LED spectrum is superior to CMH which still has too much wasted green in the spectrum. If you want penetration, go for narrower beam angle. If you want coverage, go for wider.

hey, there's nothing wrong with the 'ole HPS or CMH, I'd keep using it if I had one. They produce great buds! If I was going to spend new money I'd pick an LED fixture. The only advantage of HID is lower up-front cost and that advantage is dwindling fast and almost gone. here's a great thread that shows you the spectral advantage of LED:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

 

[Dirt Bag]

OK first of all my Gavita 600w HPS (400v model) penetrated FAR better down into the canopy than 2 315W CMH - I did a directt comparison in 4x4 tents.

Secondly, to say that LED cannot penetrate as well as HPS means you don't know much about LED options. I'm using P.L. Light Hortiled Top lamps with 80 degree beam angle - they are 320 watt lights and ONE of them penetrates to the lower canopy better than 600w of HPS or 630 of CMH. 80 degree beam angle is tight! This lamp was specifically designed for cannabis horticulture and deep penetration into flowering cannabis crops. CMH and HPS were designed for lighting warehouses and streets.

LED lights can work however you want -beam angle and penetration is not related to efficiency. P.L. Light offers either 150 or 80 degree beam angle. All HPS/HID lighting has 180 degree beam angle.

These threads that roll on an on are just so pointless, nobody seems to know anything about professional horticultural lighting. It sounds like you guys are debating circa 2010, not 2018. Companies like P.L. Light, Fluence, Illumitex, Philips Greenpower, Lumigrow, they've all completely surpassed HID lighting in every possible way. The fixtures will last 5-10 years with no bulb changes and getting close to twice the efficiency of HID.

Even DIY 3000K or 3500K LED's with COBs or strips are now approaching 3.0 umol/j and CMH and HPS will never get past 1.8 or 1.9 umol/j, and the basic 3500K LED spectrum is superior to CMH which still has too much wasted green in the spectrum. If you want penetration, go for narrower beam angle. If you want coverage, go for wider.

hey, there's nothing with the 'ole HPS or CMH, I'd keep using it if I had one. They produce great buds! If I was going to spend new money I'd pick an LED fixture. The only advantage of HID is lower up-front cost and that advantage is dwindling fast and almost gone. here's a great thread that shows you the spectral advantage of LED:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

If LEDs were cost effective or outperformed HIDs they would be being installed in the new commercial grows currently being built around the country... But by far and large, they're not. The commercial operation I'm currently watching being constructed spares no expense and uses Gavita DE 1000w HPS and CMH lights exclusively. Yes, there are a few operations currently using LEDs as supplemental lighting in greenhouses, and many use them for clones or other short leafy plants, but I have been unable to find a single commercial cannabis grower using LEDs exclusively. Why is that?

And a single 600 HPS penetrating deeper than two 315 CMH when all other factors are equal is illogical. 2 points of light is twice as good as one. 2 315w cmh are far superior to any single 600w and actually come closer to the performance of a 1000w. This doesn't even take the better spectrum into account.
LEDs were NOT developed for cannabis growth but, just like every other type of light, has been adapted to horticulture.

 

[Ibechillin]

.

 

[Dirt Bag]

I put together a detailed thread on grow room lighting/spectrum/PAR and photosynthesis on 12/5. I highly recommend reading to clarify the science of it all between HPS, Double Ended HPS, CMH and Led, so as a community all focused on improving we can put all this Fan boy and bashing bullshit to rest.

Link to thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147



Watch Canna Cribs and Growing Exposed episodes on youtube, many licensed producers are running led fixtures both indoor and greenhouse. Licensed Growers can get rebates on the led fixtures up to 90% off MSRP through their power company for using less than 1000w lights, yielding the same or even more with higher terps and potency! If a facility running hundreds of lights can confidently switch completely over and boast improvement, there has to be some truth to the claims I figured.

Those videos are why I started researching Led heavily and made the lighting information thread. Black Dog LED, Fluence and California Lightworks together have extensive research and testing published on their sites (for cannabis specifically even). I put the thread together using information from all 3 and HID light spectrum comparisons from Growers House, all very credible sources.



Yes, multiple overlapping sources of light reduces the loss of intensity over a greater distance and depth into the canopy (Led use hundred+ overlapping sources of light...Spectrum plays a vital part as well in canopy penetration that is often not thought about (explained in lighting thread).



When running the correct bulbs and spectrum 630w of CMH (meaning 2 Philips Mastercolor CDM Elite 315W CMH Agro Lamp T12 - 3100K) definitely outperforms and is superior to a single ended 1000w. Double ended 1000w HPS about 1:1 equivalent in yield performance (~1260 grams dried per fixture, from a smaller floorspace even with CMH...), lower quality end product under the double ended meaning less total terpenes and cannabinoids.




You want to know something ironic? Plants didnt evolve to fully utilize the sun either...which has been its sole light source since the beginning of time...

The most readily available light from the sun is in the middle part of the spectrum, which we see as green, yellow and orange. These are the primary frequencies that human eyes use. However, studies show that these are the least used light frequencies in plants. Most of the photosynthetic activity is in the blue and red frequencies. All plants evolved from simple organisms in the primordial sea ON THE SEA FLOOR as bottom feeders/scavengers. Utilizing only the leftover spectrum of light available to them that higher organisms didnt use which reached the floor (the reds and blues). Over Time plants have gotten better at utilizing more of the sun's spectrum (more colors of light) from an abundance of direct sunlight above ground. Though plants are much less efficient at using these "new" colors/wavelengths for photosynthesis.

"Full spectrum" meaning close to the sun is not the most efficent form for plants. PAR/PPFD is not ideal terminology for grow lighting either as it measures the TOTAL amount of light between 400nm and 700nm instead of the amounts where it matters. An led fixture can provide less PAR/PPFD than equal wattage HID and produce more yield because of the usability of the spectrum it focuses on. By tuning the spectrum as closely as possible between the absorbtion and action spectrums With LED, maximum growth and expression can be achieved, with near zero wasted power.

If that means working under blurple lights, I'll take waste. Thanks.

 

[Ibechillin]

.

 

[gaiusmarius]

to be honest, i been waiting for the day when some one has this kind of response.

what i'm interested in is the actual led lamps that will be better then hps.

what are the best possible led units that could replace a 600 hps and keep up the production level with saving in power. what kind of prices are we talking about for the best of the best.

 

[Dog Star]

million euros LED,technology from 5th dimension..... ;D LOL


How far away or how close CMH can be over plants whithouth burn??

Am talk 315 W fixture..

 

[Mengsk]

I must admit recently visiting the cannabis scene online has been an eye opener. I was only away for a handful of years but the methods used vary quite a bit from the more commercial grows to hobby, progressive, intensive, inventive styles. I guess if I had to pick one thing it might be the large open grows with tall ceilings and gavita lights. That is very different from air cooled hoods. With a tall ceiling and fans you may be able to skip air cooled hoods and vent heat exhaust upward. With cool tubes I have had 600w HPS touching the plants sometimes and a 400w MH right on top of a plant which bleached but didn't burn the leaves closest to the glass. I'm not sure how this helps you but that's my 2c. Double end hps lamps are advertised to cover 5x5 and they are often hung from the rafters and overlapped that way. There is a big enough difference between that and hanging bulbs ~12"+ away from the canopy that it would/will be interesting to see the difference in growth from each method. My wild guess could be totally wrong but it almost looks like they are losing enough photons in the distance between the bulbs and plant canopy to grow a second crop. As in 1/2 the distance = 1/2 the lights = double the plants = 1/2 the power bill and/or 2x the yield. I think one of the large gavita grows claimed 0.5 pounds per light once. Well that is either not very good or they are understating their yield for some reason. How is it that a bar setting accepted licensed producer can have 25% of the yield for their power cost as people on this forum? Doesn't that mean in simple economic terms that their product costs 4x what it can? That's my regulatory issue. When I see large scale indoor grows I am not sure where to take my complaint but they are spending about 200-500% of what they really should be to produce their product. Not in labour or profit terms but in the physical layout of the cannabis grows. Wouldn't any grower want to increase their yield per light by 4x? So what is the holdup? Why are commercial grows only yielding 1/2 pound per light? Makes no sense unless people are less competent (sorry) or they are doing it on purpose. It also kind of calls into question the definition of competent if you have a bean counter or engineer sitting at their desk talking about how efficient their plan would be (me), and you have people doing it right now blowing up 100+ light grows and pulling down 100s of lbs a month. The volume speaks for itself. Even if you waste 90% or more if your money spent is less than your revenue that equals profit and you can keep going the same way if you wish. I can see it easily at a glance but it doesn't mean I am right nor does it mean I have any say in any commercial grow. It's like a pet peeve though I don't see wedding cake or frosty white cookies I see lots of gavita light space and power being wasted lol.

 

[Ibechillin]

what are the best possible led units that could replace a 600 hps and keep up the production level with saving in power. what kind of prices are we talking about for the best of the best.

In my opinion DIY Samsung F series gen 3 3000k single row 24v Led strip builds on aluminum frame are the most efficient and can be built for around $1 per actual watt of draw. The F series' LM561C gen 3 diodes are the 2nd most efficient diode offered by Samsung in luminous efficacy behind the LM301b used in the V2 quantum boards. F series have the most diodes per strip and multiple overlapping sources of light reduces loss over a given distance, so F series gen 3 provides very even coverage and the best canopy penetration. skoomd claimed 550PPFD even coverage at a height of 3 feet with his ~320w 10 strip build on a 24" x 32" frame in a 3x3 tent. The data Ive gathered from Black Dog Led grow yields suggests 350PPFD to 400PPFD average over a given area is good for 1 gram per watt, increasing to ~1.25 grams per watt ~500PPFD. At 930PPFD 1.56 grams per watt was achieved. i feel like this was more light than the plants could utilize without co2 supplementation or air exchange twice per minute at the least and could have yielded more considering it was twice the amount of light intensity needed for 1.25 grams per watt.

About 400-450 watts actual draw in Samsung led would probably be equivalent to a 600 HPS realistically, and thats leaving room for improvement under the Led still.

 

[Dog Star]

I must admit recently visiting the cannabis scene online has been an eye opener. I was only away for a handful of years but the methods used vary quite a bit from the more commercial grows to hobby, progressive, intensive, inventive styles. I guess if I had to pick one thing it might be the large open grows with tall ceilings and gavita lights. That is very different from air cooled hoods. With a tall ceiling and fans you may be able to skip air cooled hoods and vent heat exhaust upward. With cool tubes I have had 600w HPS touching the plants sometimes and a 400w MH right on top of a plant which bleached but didn't burn the leaves closest to the glass. I'm not sure how this helps you but that's my 2c. Double end hps lamps are advertised to cover 5x5 and they are often hung from the rafters and overlapped that way. There is a big enough difference between that and hanging bulbs ~12"+ away from the canopy that it would/will be interesting to see the difference in growth from each method. My wild guess could be totally wrong but it almost looks like they are losing enough photons in the distance between the bulbs and plant canopy to grow a second crop. As in 1/2 the distance = 1/2 the lights = double the plants = 1/2 the power bill and/or 2x the yield. I think one of the large gavita grows claimed 0.5 pounds per light once. Well that is either not very good or they are understating their yield for some reason. How is it that a bar setting accepted licensed producer can have 25% of the yield for their power cost as people on this forum? Doesn't that mean in simple economic terms that their product costs 4x what it can? That's my regulatory issue. When I see large scale indoor grows I am not sure where to take my complaint but they are spending about 200-500% of what they really should be to produce their product. Not in labour or profit terms but in the physical layout of the cannabis grows. Wouldn't any grower want to increase their yield per light by 4x? So what is the holdup? Why are commercial grows only yielding 1/2 pound per light? Makes no sense unless people are less competent (sorry) or they are doing it on purpose. It also kind of calls into question the definition of competent if you have a bean counter or engineer sitting at their desk talking about how efficient their plan would be (me), and you have people doing it right now blowing up 100+ light grows and pulling down 100s of lbs a month. The volume speaks for itself. Even if you waste 90% or more if your money spent is less than your revenue that equals profit and you can keep going the same way if you wish. I can see it easily at a glance but it doesn't mean I am right nor does it mean I have any say in any commercial grow. It's like a pet peeve though I don't see wedding cake or frosty white cookies I see lots of gavita light space and power being wasted lol.

Gavita 1000 DE i grow under 215 cm ceiling,5x5 tent,its perfect
for this space.. for now record in one run is 1800 grams with just
15 days of vegetation.. if i veg for longer they go over a hood..
vegetation under Gavita gives some huge rates of growth..

trick is also to shape canopy in stadium shape or bowl shape
for better yields..

am tryed LED and now recently i buyed one 315 W cmh to try them..

but somehow think Gavita will be favorite for long time infront us..
they are really good and made much more than they advertised..

usually this is a sign of legitt company that not exaggerate..

 

[Ibechillin]

I read through this thread beginning to end tonight and wanted to mention the Hortilux daylight Blue MH heatherlonglee suggested does have a great spectrum. It produces a good amount of 430nm and 662nm light that plants can utilize best, negatives are the expensive price and short lifespan compared to CMH and led though.

 

[Dog Star]

240 dollars for bulb is a lot of money..

 

[Avenger]

My wild guess could be totally wrong but it almost looks like they are losing enough photons in the distance between the bulbs and plant canopy to grow a second crop.

Photons do NOT disappear into thin air.

 

[Ibechillin]

240 dollars for bulb is a lot of money..

Just sharing information, found them free shipping on amazon for $128 and a few grow supply places have them around $128-$146 before shipping. Cost of bulbs are a negligible expense for some people, im not recommending them but agreeing with heatherlonglee they would work well.

Photons do NOT disappear into thin air.

^This is true, as the distance increases further from the source of light the same number of photons are present, they are simply spread further apart form eachother resulting in less intensity on a specific surface.