I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya.... 
I'm sure they'll bounce back.
I'm sure they'll bounce back.
Finally, my first grow!
- Thread starter Thread starter twistedtree
- Start date Start date
AlterEcho
Member
The way I measure, from cups, is to measure the drain off from the plant cups. When you water, hold a another cup underneath the plant cup and catch the water. This will give you a very accurate reading of your soil PH.
I know everyone is hounding you about a meter, but get one as soon as possible. I prefer Hanna ( HI 991404 ). Pretty cheap and does everything you want. Also, don't forget the calibration solutions. And if your water is 'hard' this could change which ferts you get.
GJ is right about the cup weight for checking when to water. Wait until the cup feels very light......you gotta let the oxygen get to the roots. Overwatering is the biggest killer.
With your PH issue I would say your nitrogen uptake is shot. Wait until the cups feel very light and then water and measure the runoff. Then wait at least two weeks (total age) before attempting to apply ferts. Starting at 1/4 is a safe bet. Then go up a 1/4 each week. Though this is very strain dependent.
If you are ever shopping for soil Sunshine Mix #4 is a good one to choose.
-=AE=-
Your next set of leaves should look like this.....
Here is a shot of my current Apollo 11 grow....
I know everyone is hounding you about a meter, but get one as soon as possible. I prefer Hanna ( HI 991404 ). Pretty cheap and does everything you want. Also, don't forget the calibration solutions. And if your water is 'hard' this could change which ferts you get.
GJ is right about the cup weight for checking when to water. Wait until the cup feels very light......you gotta let the oxygen get to the roots. Overwatering is the biggest killer.
With your PH issue I would say your nitrogen uptake is shot. Wait until the cups feel very light and then water and measure the runoff. Then wait at least two weeks (total age) before attempting to apply ferts. Starting at 1/4 is a safe bet. Then go up a 1/4 each week. Though this is very strain dependent.
If you are ever shopping for soil Sunshine Mix #4 is a good one to choose.
-=AE=-
Your next set of leaves should look like this.....
Here is a shot of my current Apollo 11 grow....
InNvBoarder
Member
Hey Twisted just read your whole grow here, and I must say that your getting great info from everyone !!! I'm hoping for your babies to make it through! Remember that this is your trial run alot of the problems you will experience in this grow will be avoided in the next one(s)! Good luck bro grow safe- tell no-one!!!
P.S. how bout some updated pics??
P.S. how bout some updated pics??
twistedtree
Member
Hey, everyone 
AlterEcho, that's a great way to measure my pH! I'll have to try that next tiime. I know everyone is hounding me to get a pH meter, but they have a reason, and it's a damn good one. I'm definitely going to get a Hanna meter soon. Your A11 looks tasty, by the way.
InNvBoarder, thanks for checkin' in, buddy. Technically, this is my third trial run since the bugs got my first batch and I screwed up the second
but you're right, I've already learned so much since page 1! Oh yeah, pics will come soon.
Mr GJ, dude, these babies are bouncing back pretty quickly! I watered them two days ago with distilled water, and they loved it. The color seems to be returning, and growth is no longer halted!
Oh, and the leaves aren't droopy anymore, either. This pleases me :smile:
AlterEcho, that's a great way to measure my pH! I'll have to try that next tiime. I know everyone is hounding me to get a pH meter, but they have a reason, and it's a damn good one. I'm definitely going to get a Hanna meter soon. Your A11 looks tasty, by the way. InNvBoarder, thanks for checkin' in, buddy. Technically, this is my third trial run since the bugs got my first batch and I screwed up the second
but you're right, I've already learned so much since page 1! Oh yeah, pics will come soon.Mr GJ, dude, these babies are bouncing back pretty quickly! I watered them two days ago with distilled water, and they loved it. The color seems to be returning, and growth is no longer halted!
Oh, and the leaves aren't droopy anymore, either. This pleases me :smile:
AlterEcho
Member
Excellent recovery......
Glad to see they are bouncing back. Just try to remember the weight of the cups when full of water. When they are dry, you'll know it by the heft of the cup. If you want to go over the top you can always measure the cups weight.
Now all you have to do is wait for the roots to fill the cup. It might look like not much is going on up top.....but underneath the soil there is a lot happening.
BTW...what week are you on?
-=AE=-
Glad to see they are bouncing back. Just try to remember the weight of the cups when full of water. When they are dry, you'll know it by the heft of the cup. If you want to go over the top you can always measure the cups weight.
Now all you have to do is wait for the roots to fill the cup. It might look like not much is going on up top.....but underneath the soil there is a lot happening.
BTW...what week are you on?
-=AE=-
twistedtree
Member
AE, actually, there's new growth up top and it seems to be getting even better, although I'm sure much more is going on below! I wish I would've caught the pH issue earlier. I wonder how big they would've been? Hmmm, well anyway, they are two weeks old today. Hopefully they'll start to take off soon.
Hiya TT
No worries mate - it's early enough in their lives that they will recover well. Now that they are showing new growth, I believe you are on your way. The only thing you lost is time - so just let them veg a bit longer. Congratulations!
No worries mate - it's early enough in their lives that they will recover well. Now that they are showing new growth, I believe you are on your way. The only thing you lost is time - so just let them veg a bit longer. Congratulations!
twistedtree
Member
Hell yeah, Mr GJ! I'm starting to see the traditional leaves now. They're so tiny! They're actually kinda growing pretty fast for only two days, at least to me. I'll post some pics in a day or two. I also put them outside for a few hours a day to reap the benefits of the sun. They're probably enjoying that, too.
From Hot Air A Long Wind Blows
From Hot Air A Long Wind Blows
Sounds like you're on the right track tt..getting good advice..Keep in mind the pH measurement from the drain is known as "pH at runoff"
which is a good thing to monitor..but it's not the whole story..especially the first water to emerge..usually contains a high salt content or unused nutrients..
Say a plant was just re-potted..the roots aren't in the new soil yet so any nutrients that get into the new soil isn't being used by the roots, so it accumulates..
now you water the plant to runoff and what is the first to emerge from the drain..the pH of the flush from the unused soil..
so early on the runoff pH at the bottom of the pot can be much different than the pH at the top..
pH test manufacturers generally instruct you to test the soil pH by the method MGJ described, soil, cup, water..
this gives the soil time to buffer and stabilize the pH..gives you an accurate soil pH of the soil...
Now that I've said all that..I measure what I put in (nutrient/water solution) and runoff (using water at the very end of the runoff)..
I expect to see a number close to the 6.3 pH I put into peat moss based grow medium, but I usually expect the runoff will be close but slightly lower..
If it is extremely lower(or higher), I'm thinking salt or nutrient build up..which may mean I might want to flush the soil out a bit with water..
till the runoff is reasonable..
If you do things right in the first place flushing isn't necessary..although I do like to water with a lot of runoff once the roots reach the bottom of the pot..
Early on in the plant's life when roots are first forming over-watering is the worst thing that can be done to the plant..
the tap root's job is to seek out water..let it chase the water draining to the bottom..
this lets the dryer parts of the root to breathe oxygen they need as much as the water..too much water..tapper doesn't tap, tillers don't till..roots drown and rot..
with growing, your roots happiness is all you have to worry about..With sufficient light the rest is automatic..
Always try to err on the "not enough" side rather than the "too much" side..
In most store bought potting soils you could grow the plant from start to end with nothing but water..plenty do it here at IC..
use too much nutes especially early in the plants life, it will probably be worst off than just running water..
Nutes are useful for enriching the plant..beyond that point it's just toxic..
I think everyone wants to really help them when they first start out..called "killing them with kindness"..
I've seen many guilty of that, MGJ and me included...probably most growers in the beginning..
There is no miracle in Miracle Grow just nutes..(I recommend organics anyway).
Wow I typed a lot..Hope this helps some..Here's to healthy plants..
From Hot Air A Long Wind Blows
Sounds like you're on the right track tt..getting good advice..Keep in mind the pH measurement from the drain is known as "pH at runoff"
which is a good thing to monitor..but it's not the whole story..especially the first water to emerge..usually contains a high salt content or unused nutrients..
Say a plant was just re-potted..the roots aren't in the new soil yet so any nutrients that get into the new soil isn't being used by the roots, so it accumulates..
now you water the plant to runoff and what is the first to emerge from the drain..the pH of the flush from the unused soil..
so early on the runoff pH at the bottom of the pot can be much different than the pH at the top..
pH test manufacturers generally instruct you to test the soil pH by the method MGJ described, soil, cup, water..
this gives the soil time to buffer and stabilize the pH..gives you an accurate soil pH of the soil...
Now that I've said all that..I measure what I put in (nutrient/water solution) and runoff (using water at the very end of the runoff)..
I expect to see a number close to the 6.3 pH I put into peat moss based grow medium, but I usually expect the runoff will be close but slightly lower..
If it is extremely lower(or higher), I'm thinking salt or nutrient build up..which may mean I might want to flush the soil out a bit with water..
till the runoff is reasonable..
If you do things right in the first place flushing isn't necessary..although I do like to water with a lot of runoff once the roots reach the bottom of the pot..
Early on in the plant's life when roots are first forming over-watering is the worst thing that can be done to the plant..
the tap root's job is to seek out water..let it chase the water draining to the bottom..
this lets the dryer parts of the root to breathe oxygen they need as much as the water..too much water..tapper doesn't tap, tillers don't till..roots drown and rot..
with growing, your roots happiness is all you have to worry about..With sufficient light the rest is automatic..
Always try to err on the "not enough" side rather than the "too much" side..
In most store bought potting soils you could grow the plant from start to end with nothing but water..plenty do it here at IC..
use too much nutes especially early in the plants life, it will probably be worst off than just running water..
Nutes are useful for enriching the plant..beyond that point it's just toxic..
I think everyone wants to really help them when they first start out..called "killing them with kindness"..
I've seen many guilty of that, MGJ and me included...probably most growers in the beginning..
There is no miracle in Miracle Grow just nutes..(I recommend organics anyway).
Wow I typed a lot..Hope this helps some..Here's to healthy plants..
twistedtree
Member
The first pH test I did was done using Mr GJ's method. I like his method, too. I'll have to incorporate the run off test, as well. Sounds like I've still got a bit to learn, huh packn2puff? I'm getting it, though. Slowly but surely. My soil is Expert's Pro Oganic Choice or something like that. It's NPK is 0.06-0.09-0.06. I did buy some nutes (AN Iguana Juice) and I have a bunch of beneficial microbes (Voodoo Juice, Tarantula, and Piranha). Does my soil's NPK seem a little low, or are all the soil's like that? I honestly wanted to go with Ocean Forest, but holy crap, that's expensive! Anywho, I wanted to give them a 1/4 strength dose of Iguana Juice before I put them outside in about two weeks. Do you think this is wise?
Hiya tt
See my bud Packn stopped by
wave - more good info flowin...
Commercial soil cost includes transport fees - OF is reasonable $ here not too far from where it's made. The secret is to find affordable soils in your area - like you have - however I would stay away from pre-fertilized soils - and stick with potting soil for seedlings and such. Better to add ferts on an as needed basis. Inexpensive pre-fertilized soils often use chemical ferts which can burn some plants when they are young.
You are very focused on feeding them - better to let the plant tell you what it wants rather than feed in advance at this point. When you transplant it outside you'll probably be digging a hole and planting it in fresh soil which will give it a load of fresh nutrients - so if they don't need feeding beforehand they'll get it growing into the new soil.
See my bud Packn stopped by
wave - more good info flowin...Commercial soil cost includes transport fees - OF is reasonable $ here not too far from where it's made. The secret is to find affordable soils in your area - like you have - however I would stay away from pre-fertilized soils - and stick with potting soil for seedlings and such. Better to add ferts on an as needed basis. Inexpensive pre-fertilized soils often use chemical ferts which can burn some plants when they are young.
You are very focused on feeding them - better to let the plant tell you what it wants rather than feed in advance at this point. When you transplant it outside you'll probably be digging a hole and planting it in fresh soil which will give it a load of fresh nutrients - so if they don't need feeding beforehand they'll get it growing into the new soil.
twistedtree
Member
Mr GJ, always a pleasure I know you're right about waiting for the plants to tell me they want food. They will get fresh soil when they go outside, but it's going to be the same kind they're in now. Man, I am really focused on feeding them, huh? It's hard not to think about it, though. I guess it's because I'm really excited and I just want them to grow and flower so I can harvest. But nothing I do is going to make them grow faster. In fact, I could potentiall slow/stop growth all together, right? I'm going to resist temptations. And if I give in, please be sure to 
me!
I know you're right about waiting for the plants to tell me they want food. They will get fresh soil when they go outside, but it's going to be the same kind they're in now. Man, I am really focused on feeding them, huh? It's hard not to think about it, though. I guess it's because I'm really excited and I just want them to grow and flower so I can harvest. But nothing I do is going to make them grow faster. In fact, I could potentiall slow/stop growth all together, right? I'm going to resist temptations. And if I give in, please be sure to me!
Hey MGJ Well tt you've got good stuff to work with..plenty in the soil for a good while yet before you need to add nutes..
But the beneficials can go in right now..The other AN critter component is Sensizym (enzymes)..If you run a complete AN system like the 2+, you'll use more Sensizym than any other component..
I run the AN 2+ system and use a neutral potting soil & coco coir mix..
Then bennies chew up the food, then feed the food to the roots directly..in turn the roots feed the bacteria..Voodoo Juice is a colonizer..which help them multiply..
Once they have colonized you can feed the bugs with Carboload or something like blackstrap molasses..
I don't think you'll have to add any more nutes to that soil, plenty for early-mid veg already..but don't forget to ease them into the sun..
A plant started indoors then moved outdoors can be quite a shock to the plant..they can droop right over in less than an hour in the sun..
Even going from low wattage fluoros to big HID's can send um south..
Ease um like you are trying to get a sun tan..a little at first then more each day..
Bottom line: I would get the bennies and maybe fulvic and humic acids in next watering or two..then if the plant looks like it needs it
(by the NPK numbers above would probably show a N def first in veg)(oldest growth begins to yellow) then begin feeding..
a weak dose next week probably wouldn't hurt..but I don't think you'll need it..
Damn another long winded post..hope this helps some..
Well tt you've got good stuff to work with..plenty in the soil for a good while yet before you need to add nutes..But the beneficials can go in right now..The other AN critter component is Sensizym (enzymes)..If you run a complete AN system like the 2+, you'll use more Sensizym than any other component..
I run the AN 2+ system and use a neutral potting soil & coco coir mix..
Then bennies chew up the food, then feed the food to the roots directly..in turn the roots feed the bacteria..Voodoo Juice is a colonizer..which help them multiply..
Once they have colonized you can feed the bugs with Carboload or something like blackstrap molasses..
I don't think you'll have to add any more nutes to that soil, plenty for early-mid veg already..but don't forget to ease them into the sun..
A plant started indoors then moved outdoors can be quite a shock to the plant..they can droop right over in less than an hour in the sun..
Even going from low wattage fluoros to big HID's can send um south..
Ease um like you are trying to get a sun tan..a little at first then more each day..
Bottom line: I would get the bennies and maybe fulvic and humic acids in next watering or two..then if the plant looks like it needs it
(by the NPK numbers above would probably show a N def first in veg)(oldest growth begins to yellow) then begin feeding..
a weak dose next week probably wouldn't hurt..but I don't think you'll need it..
Damn another long winded post..hope this helps some..
twistedtree
Member
packn - hello again! Such friendly people here...I love it. I've actually already given them the beneficials. They've had 1 dose with voodoo, tarantula, and piranha. Then an additional 2 doses of piranha and tarantula. That's how they got overwatered a few days ago 
Boy, they sure tell you quickly when you piss 'em off, huh? Other than the internet, where can I get humic and fulvic acids? They have chelators in them, right? It's kinda like food for the beneficials, right? Iguana Juice has chelators in it...what if I gave them a super weak dose of Iguana Juice and a regular dose of Voodoo/Tarantual/Piranha with their next watering? Like 1/8 strength?
Such friendly people here...I love it. I've actually already given them the beneficials. They've had 1 dose with voodoo, tarantula, and piranha. Then an additional 2 doses of piranha and tarantula. That's how they got overwatered a few days ago Boy, they sure tell you quickly when you piss 'em off, huh? Other than the internet, where can I get humic and fulvic acids? They have chelators in them, right? It's kinda like food for the beneficials, right? Iguana Juice has chelators in it...what if I gave them a super weak dose of Iguana Juice and a regular dose of Voodoo/Tarantual/Piranha with their next watering? Like 1/8 strength?
twistedtree
Member
Oh BTW, that's why I'm so obsessed with feeding them. I'm trying to get the beneficials to stay around for a while, ya know? Because it says on the back of piranha and tarantula to mix in 1/8 teaspoon per quart of nutrient solution, but I haven't given them any nutes yet just water so I don't know if they're being fed properly or not.
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Humic & Fulvic acids produced from Leonardite are the best found so far for plants..AN sells theirs under the Grandma Enggy's name..
They are the chelators making micros and macros more readily available to the plant..and so much more..
promote growth of beneficial microbial colonies as well..promote vigor and root development by increasing the soil permeability, which increases water retention..
It's also said Humic acid will make the plant more resistant to stress..like temp and humidity swings..
Iguana Juice is an all-in-one all organic nute blend (similar to PBP)..a little won't hurt if you really wanna crack that bottle open..hehe..
They are the chelators making micros and macros more readily available to the plant..and so much more..
promote growth of beneficial microbial colonies as well..promote vigor and root development by increasing the soil permeability, which increases water retention..
It's also said Humic acid will make the plant more resistant to stress..like temp and humidity swings..
Iguana Juice is an all-in-one all organic nute blend (similar to PBP)..a little won't hurt if you really wanna crack that bottle open..hehe..
twistedtree
Member
*yawn* hey everyone man, they've got me workin' overnights now till christmas. It really screwed up my sleep schedule, but I'm gettin' used to it. Anyway, my plants are doing fine. I'll have some pics tomorrow or the next day. The old leaves still look like shit, especially the C99#1, but the new growth sure looks purdy! They're all starting to show the familiar fingered leaves now. The old leaves won't recover, will they?
man, they've got me workin' overnights now till christmas. It really screwed up my sleep schedule, but I'm gettin' used to it. Anyway, my plants are doing fine. I'll have some pics tomorrow or the next day. The old leaves still look like shit, especially the C99#1, but the new growth sure looks purdy! They're all starting to show the familiar fingered leaves now. The old leaves won't recover, will they?InNvBoarder
Member
The old leaves wont recover but it dosent matter if the new ones look good thats all you can ask! When your bud start forming you'll see what I mean
twistedtree
Member
Hey everyone! I trust everyone is having a good day, yeah? My plants are looking pretty good. And here's the pics:
My C99#1 The first set of leaves...how sad
but I love the new growth!
Here's C99#2
And here's #3 (this one's the runt)
Now for the Mikush's. Mikush#1 is doing pretty damned good, I think.
And the smaller Mikush#2
They seem to be benefiting tremendously from the distilled water and I did give them 1/4 strength Iguana Juice Grow along with all the beneficials, and I believe they enjoyed that quite a bit also.
I trust everyone is having a good day, yeah? My plants are looking pretty good. And here's the pics:My C99#1 The first set of leaves...how sad
but I love the new growth! 
Here's C99#2
And here's #3 (this one's the runt)
Now for the Mikush's. Mikush#1 is doing pretty damned good, I think.
And the smaller Mikush#2
They seem to be benefiting tremendously from the distilled water and I did give them 1/4 strength Iguana Juice Grow along with all the beneficials, and I believe they enjoyed that quite a bit also.
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new growth looks fine
new growth looks fine
mmmh you like distilled water?..always gived me troubles ph'ing it.....ime....alwasy needed 2 add to much ph+
so whats wrong with ya tapwater?? working with distilled water is asking for troubles imo....aslong as you can keep the new growth green and the yellowing does't spread your ok...
maybe some1 else has a
on this matter
love the update man
new growth looks fine
mmmh you like distilled water?..always gived me troubles ph'ing it.....ime....alwasy needed 2 add to much ph+
so whats wrong with ya tapwater?? working with distilled water is asking for troubles imo....aslong as you can keep the new growth green and the yellowing does't spread your ok...
maybe some1 else has a
on this matter love the update man
