this is how I have been conceiving it as well.
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Fermented plant extracts
- Thread starter sophisto
- Start date
this is how I have been conceiving it as well.
G
greenmatter
makes sense to me!
part of post #76 describes yet another way to use comfrey ......... what should this stuff be called? can this be done with other plant material or is the process for comfrey only?
Oregonism
Active member
More like a hydrosol than a fermentation, when you soak it.
Fermentation does not take place sufficiently in a few days. Still awesome, but an FPE is just that....... something that goes thru Fermentation! oxidation splitting of pyruvite to form ATP molecules and all that jazz.
Just being a longer term tea brew, still doesn't mean its fermenting, not to be a homer.
But I do believe that I have worked out how to tell fermentation. I have been using the candy thermometer / beer hygrometer to take sugar readings during soak and I am going to use MM's link on acetic acid monitoring.
True FPE's should have some residual alcohol, their fermented after all[alcohol content is low, and acetic acid production is still low too...] , but not enough to start fucking shit up [alcohol content rises / completely drops, acetic acid content rises [pH goes down] / reduces > pH goes up, etc.]
So I monitor between 1-3% alchohol, but I haven't gotten a chance to test the acetic acid procedure yet.....[I am witnessing the fermentation begin, but I don't have guess in hell in how much it's progessing into Winegar]
Any thoughts on the procedure...?
Fermentation does not take place sufficiently in a few days. Still awesome, but an FPE is just that....... something that goes thru Fermentation! oxidation splitting of pyruvite to form ATP molecules and all that jazz.
Just being a longer term tea brew, still doesn't mean its fermenting, not to be a homer.
But I do believe that I have worked out how to tell fermentation. I have been using the candy thermometer / beer hygrometer to take sugar readings during soak and I am going to use MM's link on acetic acid monitoring.
True FPE's should have some residual alcohol, their fermented after all[alcohol content is low, and acetic acid production is still low too...] , but not enough to start fucking shit up [alcohol content rises / completely drops, acetic acid content rises [pH goes down] / reduces > pH goes up, etc.]
So I monitor between 1-3% alchohol, but I haven't gotten a chance to test the acetic acid procedure yet.....[I am witnessing the fermentation begin, but I don't have guess in hell in how much it's progessing into Winegar]
Any thoughts on the procedure...?
That's why I say infusion, if you're just trying to use water to remove compounds from plant leaves/stems/etc, it's just water + the compunds.
Fermentation should involve those compounds being changed by chemical actions from bacteria/fungi/whatever else.. (oregonism says it better
)
wikipedia said:
Fermentation should involve those compounds being changed by chemical actions from bacteria/fungi/whatever else.. (oregonism says it better
)Agreed. Given the molecular formula and structure on these compounds, the question becomes how long of an infusion is best?
I can speak about a single compound, Linalool, and the difference in the pesticide and fungicide benefit shows a marked difference at 2 days vs. 4 days and by day 6 the party is completely over.
Using a lactobacillus culture to actually ferment is a waste of effort if it's compounds you want.
For those of you using Gil Carandang's formulas I would suggest a couple of things to consider:
Buy & read his book ($9.99) and look at this entire body of work, i.e. it's a bit more than lacto serum and other hand-picked processes
Go back and look at the articles posted online which are a good introduction to his work and note what the goal is - Elements. Phophorus, Potassium, etc.
Back to this tired analogy but it's all I've got: if true fermenting kept plant compounds intact then I would expect to see a plethora of threads on cannabis boards with detailed instructions on tossing your buds into a vat of yogurt and hope for the best.
So far I've seen nothing but I remain hopeful
Linalool is what you find in lavender and mint (and many others), I've been using it as a mite defense, got lavender and three types of mint in my garden, what does an increased soaking time do, is it positive or negative?
Actually, I'd like to see what lactobacillus does with the sugars in the plants, even if it was nothing, it could be a new twist on blueberry yogurt..
ixnay007
2 days - amazing results. By day 4 there is a massive decrease in effectiveness and, again, by day 6 the party is over. Linalool, specifically, is an alcohol-based Terpene.
In the case of Lavender flowers (a Mint), depending on whether you're using a 'culinary' variety vs a 'medicinal' you have a couple of considerations relative to extraction methods.
Culinary - Lavande officinale | Lavandula angustifolia
Linalool - 28.92%
Linaly acetate - 32.98%
Eucalyptol - 0.00%
Camphor - 0.85%
There are at least another 50 compounds in Lavender - either type.
Here's a snapshot on Medicinal Lavender Lavande aspic | Lavandula latifolia and I'll only use the compounds listed for Culinary to show the huge differences:
Linalool - 49.47%
Linaly acetate - 0.00%
Eucalyptol - 25.91%
Camphor - 13.00%
2 days - amazing results. By day 4 there is a massive decrease in effectiveness and, again, by day 6 the party is over. Linalool, specifically, is an alcohol-based Terpene.
In the case of Lavender flowers (a Mint), depending on whether you're using a 'culinary' variety vs a 'medicinal' you have a couple of considerations relative to extraction methods.
Culinary - Lavande officinale | Lavandula angustifolia
Linalool - 28.92%
Linaly acetate - 32.98%
Eucalyptol - 0.00%
Camphor - 0.85%
There are at least another 50 compounds in Lavender - either type.
Here's a snapshot on Medicinal Lavender Lavande aspic | Lavandula latifolia and I'll only use the compounds listed for Culinary to show the huge differences:
Linalool - 49.47%
Linaly acetate - 0.00%
Eucalyptol - 25.91%
Camphor - 13.00%
I have no idea what type of lavender mine is, identification guides aren't much help (having only one type of lavender I can't really tell what is more camphor, or sweeter, etc).
It kind looks like this: http://www.cvef.org/nature/pics/vannoy_lavendar_lg.JPG
Grey leaves, that turn green when wet down, long flowering stalks, the flowers at the end are well separated, not all bunched together, and it smells strongly of lavender even in the winter if you brush up against it.
And being that I live in Italy, it's one that seems to enjoy the heat here (90° most of the summer, when it's flowering) and the dry conditions.
Actually, now I looked up the two types, it seems it's Latifolia, the flowers with two small leaves, and the secondary stalks on the flowers are the clue.. I'm gonna have to save some seeds of this.
It kind looks like this: http://www.cvef.org/nature/pics/vannoy_lavendar_lg.JPG
Grey leaves, that turn green when wet down, long flowering stalks, the flowers at the end are well separated, not all bunched together, and it smells strongly of lavender even in the winter if you brush up against it.
And being that I live in Italy, it's one that seems to enjoy the heat here (90° most of the summer, when it's flowering) and the dry conditions.
Actually, now I looked up the two types, it seems it's Latifolia, the flowers with two small leaves, and the secondary stalks on the flowers are the clue.. I'm gonna have to save some seeds of this.
ixnay007
The easiest way to tell is to rub the flower itself - if it smells like Lavender only then it's probably a Culinary variety. If it has a heavy 'medicine' smell with a minor Lavender smell the it's the medicinal - it's the Camphor component and this compound is the one found in chest rubs when we get a bad cold.
Based on the photo that you posted I would guess that it's a Lavandula latifolia which is called a Mediterranean Lavender.
See if this photo is helpful:
The easiest way to tell is to rub the flower itself - if it smells like Lavender only then it's probably a Culinary variety. If it has a heavy 'medicine' smell with a minor Lavender smell the it's the medicinal - it's the Camphor component and this compound is the one found in chest rubs when we get a bad cold.
Based on the photo that you posted I would guess that it's a Lavandula latifolia which is called a Mediterranean Lavender.
See if this photo is helpful:
So far I am concluding that I'm either making a "bio-nutrient" solution, not an FPE(or maybe I am?). Or am I still just making a mess? Is it worth trying to see how long till this stuff really takes to turns to mush? Most of it has been in there about a week, I think...
Oregonism
Active member
Yes, speaking on long term.....I found a little jar of oxeye daisy's, feverfew and wild ginger [shit that grows wild around me], it's 2 years old. Smells very vinegary, the alcohol, definitely got ate....
I am also still using a nettle stew that is from last summer. 5 gallon bucket about 2/3 full of packed fresh nettle..rainwater...tiny bit o molasses [really not needed]...sometimes I add a secret weapon to keep it fresh, but it has not a vinegary or alcohol smell, but more like the dead horseshit earthy smell, described above somewhere, borderline stinky, the girls in veg, couldn't accept enough..... I still use it, when I add flower nutes, as I like to add a wee bit of N and it seems to fit the bill.
Nettles are a good plant to use.....
Oregonism
Active member
Indeed...1st run w/ nettle and diy/recycled soil is proving fruitful....
In short...yes.
Nettles are known for their spectrum of micronutrients, what about alfalfa? Other than that, I personally have used.......: clover[Red, white, black medic], vetch[purple], lotus [Birds 3Foot].
The girls [and apparently 1 random nutsack] always loved the formula and I feed thick every other or 3rd watering. More than 25:1...
I'm doing some searching, trying to find information on composting in water. I thought maybe looking up composting septic systems might be useful, but I don't think I'm using the right terms. Is this even a thing people do? Bio-nutrient just brought up a lot of health suplements, sometimes Google drives me nuts...
I figured why not, so I decided to throw a lot of different biological starters in there and see what happened. I put "super hot compost starter" in it, Pond Zyme Plus, and two different types of bread yeast, plus some Jobe's BioZome, and Espoma Bio-Tone StarterPlus. I figured between all that stuff something would win the battle lol..... I also added a little more molasses. Oddly enough the smell of the mix has improved a lot, and the material in there is breaking down, even the horsetails, which I barely chopped at all. I'm thinking about draining out the liquid soon and then taking the remaining mash/liquid and composting it into one of my soil bins. Good idea? Bad idea?
I figured why not, so I decided to throw a lot of different biological starters in there and see what happened. I put "super hot compost starter" in it, Pond Zyme Plus, and two different types of bread yeast, plus some Jobe's BioZome, and Espoma Bio-Tone StarterPlus. I figured between all that stuff something would win the battle lol..... I also added a little more molasses. Oddly enough the smell of the mix has improved a lot, and the material in there is breaking down, even the horsetails, which I barely chopped at all. I'm thinking about draining out the liquid soon and then taking the remaining mash/liquid and composting it into one of my soil bins. Good idea? Bad idea?
You lost me man, what are you trying to accomplish with this mix?
There are all kinds of recipes in this thread that do work very well. If you do go the route you posted and things go down the tubes, how do you know what ingredient was the culprit? I would go with proven recipes, then maybe add one more thing at a time testing as you go, plus i would competely leave out the espoma. You can make a nice fertilizer tea with the espoma on it's own though. Anyway that is how i would approach things......scrappy
So it isn't just me!
S
SeaMaiden
What are you after by "composting in water"? It occurs, it's called eutrophication and leads to dead waters due to super-high nutrient levels that allow only microalgae and certain other microbes to exist.
I think you've gotten a little overwhelmed with all the information you've been taking in and maybe need to take a step back and reorganize the thoughts and plans. What I'm reading is disorganized, though I'm sure you had a specific idea when you began.
I feel overwhelmed reading it.
I'm going to throw one other idea out at you--what if you used your local soil as a bio-starter (aka inoculation) instead of all this store-bought stuff? What if you simply allowed whatever is floating in the air to have its chance, just as many home bakers do when they make their own sourdoughs without purchasing specific yeasts, for example? You might be surprised.
Magic, let me tell you a short story about my experience with enzymes.
On one of my first attempts at reusing my soil I put the old used soil in a tote box and added ewc to it. The soil was full of roots that i wanted to break down, so I eventually bought a bottle of hydro store enzymes, I think the brand was cana something. Anyway by the time i got around to adding the enzymes, about two weeks, there were no more roots left in the soil. The natural enzymes in EWC did my work for me already.
I gave the bottle of enzymes away and never thought i would need enzymes as long as I stayed organic using natural ingredients and processes. A similar process (microbial action) is what makes FPE break down, ferment, or whatever, so I doubt you really need more enzymes than what occurs naturally when your using natural ingredients in a living soil. The key here is living soil......scrappy
On one of my first attempts at reusing my soil I put the old used soil in a tote box and added ewc to it. The soil was full of roots that i wanted to break down, so I eventually bought a bottle of hydro store enzymes, I think the brand was cana something. Anyway by the time i got around to adding the enzymes, about two weeks, there were no more roots left in the soil. The natural enzymes in EWC did my work for me already.
I gave the bottle of enzymes away and never thought i would need enzymes as long as I stayed organic using natural ingredients and processes. A similar process (microbial action) is what makes FPE break down, ferment, or whatever, so I doubt you really need more enzymes than what occurs naturally when your using natural ingredients in a living soil. The key here is living soil......scrappy
lol sorry, I was just high and had the space to do it so I stuffed all these things in a container and started letting them rot..... I'm not sure what this will lead to. I'm not going to put it on my cannabis plants. I have weeds outside to test this on. I'm just playing around. I picked the materials for their usefulness as flowering fertilizer, but we'll see. I'm going to take some of the liquid out today or tomorrow and "feed" it to some dandelions and thistles....
